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Mountain goddess no like competition

Odd news from Japan and all things Japanese around the world.
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Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Fri May 29, 2015 1:24 pm

She Had to Leave Japan to Find Success as an Engineer

Reiko Abe became a civil engineer in Japan, but she couldn’t find a job. An ancient Shinto superstition, made part of Japan’s labor law, held that if a woman entered a tunnel under construction, she would anger the jealous mountain goddess and cause worker accidents.

Two decades later, Abe has become the face of Japan’s global engagement as the nation seeks to overcome its image as an economic laggard and a wasteland for career women. Television advertisements featuring her have run on CNN and the BBC. She’s been lauded by Prime Minister Shinzo Abe (no relation) for showcasing Japan’s strengths abroad and symbolizing why the country needs to promote more women in a workforce where less than 5 percent of managers are female.

The irony? Abe, 51, had to leave Japan. After overseeing construction safety on Indian metro projects for seven years, she’s been promoted to head Oriental Consultants India Pvt., a unit of Tokyo-based ACKG Ltd. The company is working to extend subway systems in New Delhi and Mumbai and build them in cities including Bengaluru and Ahmedabad. Abe is also overseeing a mass transit project in Jakarta, having previously worked on Taiwan’s high-speed rail, the metro in Ukraine’s capital, an undersea tunnel in Norway and an urban-planning project in Qatar.

[...]

After graduating with a civil engineering degree from Yamaguchi University, a first for a woman at the institution, Abe discovered that Shinto beliefs and paternalistic notions about protecting women left her without a future. Japan’s Labor Standards Act, which banned women from underground construction sites and mines, wouldn’t be revised until 2006. (Pregnant and post-natal women are still barred.)

“No matter how hard I studied or gained experience, I was at a disadvantage because I was a woman,” Abe said. “I had to find ways to overcome that disadvantage: learn English, gain experience in developing countries, work on difficult South Asian projects. Somewhere along the way, all of those things became my weapons.”

In less than a year, she taught herself English. She beat 4,000 applicants for a spot in a master’s degree program at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology and left in 1995. A training position gave her a shot, finally, to work in a tunnel: the undersea North Cape project linking Norway’s mainland to Mageroya island.


Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby matsuki » Fri May 29, 2015 1:53 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?


This is the country where they won't issue a citation for speeding (speed camera) if you have a young girl in the vehicle.

Totally plausible.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby wagyl » Fri May 29, 2015 3:06 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?

Doing some quick research, the Labor Standards Act was first implemented in 1947, as part of the Occupation period modernisations, those same modernisations which removed the divine status of the Emperor, so I think the rule, if it existed, was more paternalistic "let's protect women from dangerous work" than "let's not ruffle divine feathers of mysterious nature spirits." The whole idea that it would be amended to permit virgins but restrict the pregnant and those with children fits more with the first theory than with the second. I am not entirely sure how long after giving birth is regarded as "after giving birth." For what it is worth, the amendment to the regulations in 2006 was in response to gender equality and is expressed to be for health management reasons. For what that is worth,,, The regulations still ban those under 16 from work underground as well. The mountain goddess also prefers the sexually mature.
Last edited by wagyl on Fri May 29, 2015 3:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby kurogane » Fri May 29, 2015 3:17 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?


Sure; if it's enshrined in the code it must be. It's a pagan belief system. I've heard weirder ones, usually involving building shit. Keep in mind it's probably not the other engineers and such as much as the peons and their unions. One does wonder what she was thinking of way back when at Uni when she decided to go into the tunnel specialty, but that would be just kicking the victim. Lucky she didn't decide to try marine engineering. I get tired of these Ooh! Aaah! Bad Japan, Thank God for The Japanese SooperWoman! articles but I suppose it provides a convenient distraction for white people trying really hard not to remember that our shining lights of equality and opportunity still don't pay our own women properly. Anyways, good for her, ganbare gyaru.

PS Wagyl's got a nice point, but it's hardly beyond plausibility that an ingrained superstition would be taken into account if only to ensure harmonious labour conditions and relations, and then the latter used as a secular excuse for what is actually a religious stricture. As for Yes, virgins No, mothers Wagyl could be right again, but I'll go the Mary Douglas tack and argue for ritual purity and pollution (which would be the sticking point of said superstition). Virgins are the walking billboards of Shinto purity, hence the cuties in the red Korean skirts at shrines. Married women are impure by definition. Shinto rites and rules revolve around purity and pollution and not much else. Purity promises order, and therefore peace and prosperity, and purification restores order, and around we go again. Ever tried to not wash your hands and rinse your mouth on a shrine visit with a GF? That is a withering glare worth the price of admission.

How hard is it to imagine a bunch of Japanese might actually follow those sorts of strictures out of rote obedience and blind habit? I am not defending them, BTW, but if it is difficult, you makey too much Tokyo. You need makey go up country.

EDIT* apologies for any snippiness of tone. It's been a long day awash in stupid white Vangoovers. I'll leave it as is, but AIA. :-D
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Coligny » Fri May 29, 2015 4:30 pm

kurogane wrote:Ever tried to not wash your hands and rinse your mouth on a shrine visit with a GF? That is a withering glare worth the price of admission.



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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby wagyl » Fri May 29, 2015 4:46 pm

kurogane wrote:
Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?


Sure; if it's enshrined in the code it must be.

I think that is the crux of Mr Jerk's question. Is it actually so enshrined? I think he feels the need to factcheck Bloomberg, before
Shinto superstition, made part of Japan’s labor law
becomes a fact because it is in print.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby kurogane » Fri May 29, 2015 4:59 pm

Oh, gotcha. I went with is the superstition true? part. I liked your read above, and let's remember, you don't need a reason to make a law if you just make the law, which then becomes the reason. Joseph Heller's got nothing on the LDP. I betcha you are right, though, and the law as written in the labour code makes no mention of the mountain goddess, which would be a flagrant constitutional violation at any rate. So, no, no enshrinement but same effect. I would never write that in such bald terms without a substantial amount of substantiation, btw. Plausible but hardly easily proven. But it is an article about Japanese women bucking the odds and fighting the dragon :rolleyes:

Feck, now even my own inner Major Major is confoozed. Anyways, the research is yours; no fecking way I am bored enough to read through that codswallop :-D
Last edited by kurogane on Fri May 29, 2015 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby matsuki » Fri May 29, 2015 5:00 pm

Wags, since were on a similar subject, can you use your google-fu to point me where I can find the actual law about those speed camera tickets? I tried but only found different stories about them not issuing a citation or no longer sending a pic with the citation, due to some politician being caught cheating when a ticket got sent to his home with a dated/time stamped pic of him with his mistress riding joseki.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby wagyl » Fri May 29, 2015 5:27 pm

This sounds like best with PM, asking for more specifics about what you are looking for.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Fri May 29, 2015 5:42 pm

wagyl wrote:
kurogane wrote:
Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?


Sure; if it's enshrined in the code it must be.

I think that is the crux of Mr Jerk's question. Is it actually so enshrined? I think he feels the need to factcheck Bloomberg, before
Shinto superstition, made part of Japan’s labor law
becomes a fact because it is in print.


You are correct about the point of my question.

By the way, how ancient could a Japanese superstition about digging tunnels into mountains be?
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby matsuki » Fri May 29, 2015 5:47 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:
wagyl wrote:
kurogane wrote:
Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?


Sure; if it's enshrined in the code it must be.

I think that is the crux of Mr Jerk's question. Is it actually so enshrined? I think he feels the need to factcheck Bloomberg, before
Shinto superstition, made part of Japan’s labor law
becomes a fact because it is in print.


You are correct about the point of my question.

By the way, how ancient could a Japanese superstition about digging tunnels into mountains be?


Sorta related but the Koreans claim the Japanese drove giant spikes into their mountains to "subdue their mountain spirits."
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby wagyl » Fri May 29, 2015 5:50 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:
wagyl wrote:
kurogane wrote:
Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?


Sure; if it's enshrined in the code it must be.

I think that is the crux of Mr Jerk's question. Is it actually so enshrined? I think he feels the need to factcheck Bloomberg, before
Shinto superstition, made part of Japan’s labor law
becomes a fact because it is in print.


You are correct about the point of my question.

By the way, how ancient could a Japanese superstition about digging tunnels into mountains be?

About as ancient as the date when the stone age became the bronze age.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Fri May 29, 2015 5:55 pm

wagyl wrote:
Samurai_Jerk wrote:
wagyl wrote:
kurogane wrote:
Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Does anyone know if that Shinto superstition part is true?


Sure; if it's enshrined in the code it must be.

I think that is the crux of Mr Jerk's question. Is it actually so enshrined? I think he feels the need to factcheck Bloomberg, before
Shinto superstition, made part of Japan’s labor law
becomes a fact because it is in print.


You are correct about the point of my question.

By the way, how ancient could a Japanese superstition about digging tunnels into mountains be?

About as ancient as the date when the stone age became the bronze age.


So in Japan that would be relatively recent. :mrgreen:
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby kurogane » Fri May 29, 2015 6:02 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote: By the way, how ancient could a Japanese superstition about digging tunnels into mountains be?


1263 give or take a few years? The tunnels in Omori Ginzan silver mine are early Edo at the latest, and less intensive mining there probably predates that by quite a bit. At its peak it produced 1/3 of the world's silver output. They've been tunnelling for a long time in their own way, never mind the expertise they gained on Iwo Jima (Fawlty Towers Rule pull!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

EDIT: Wrong!!!!!!!!!!! It was in the exalted second year of Enkei, aka 1309, in Omori or Iwami, during the rule of the Kamakura. So, yeah, not so ancient :razz:
Orei!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby wagyl » Fri May 29, 2015 6:21 pm

OK, before the amendment:
Article 64-2 An employer shall not have women 18 years or more of age work underground; provided, however, that this shall not apply to those engaged in work specified by the Ordinance of the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare which is performed underground due to temporary necessity (excluding those specified by the Ordinance of the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare as expectant or nursing mothers, as provided in paragraph (1) of the following Article).

(MHLW trumps the mountain goddess)

After the amendment
Article 64-2 Employers shall not assign the women set forth in the following items to the work set forth in the said respective items:
(i) Pregnant women and women who are within one year since childbirth who notify the Employer of their intention not to engage in belowground work: All belowground work;
(ii) Women of 18 years of age or more other than the women set forth in the preceding item: Manual belowground excavation and other belowground work specified by Ordinance of the Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare as work injurious to women.

(mountain goddess is not so jealous if the women use a machine)

This is all in the same section dealing with the rights of pregnant women to refuse after hours work schedules, things like that. While not denying that their lack of welcome in the workplace might have been a factor, I'm calling bullshit on the idea that Japan, inscrutable country of tradition (side by side with neon-lit modernity and automated soiled panty dispensers) introduced the rule preventing women underground for mainly religious reasons. It does make for a clickbaity first paragraph, giving their reading public something they want to believe, though, so Bloomberg's advertisers will happily allow it to erode its credibility.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby kurogane » Fri May 29, 2015 6:47 pm

I think we're being separated by a common language :confused: What part of the underlying religious logic is absent from the quoted bits that leads you to your conclusion of secular rationale?

I'll go the other way: assuming I understood it correctly, it stipulates that only women under 18 may work underground, non? Those are The Virgins (the technical term is Maiden). The religious rationale against pollution forbids women of "marriageable age" in all their various forms and states, ergo no women over 18 (as a rather quaintly modern notion of when women become "marriageable"). And by "marriageable" I mean Women it's Okay to Fuck, Impregnate and Marry, allowing that said definitions are made by LDP members with their own daughters in mind. 18 is also the accepted age for the Shrine Miko girls to leave the service. To put it another way, and even allowing those laws were originally formulated in an era of routine child labour why on earth would the law seeking to protect women allow women UNDER the age of 18 to perform those tasks deemed too dangerous for women over 18? See what I mean? Either it's No Women, or it's the religious/superstitious stricture masquerading as modern Health and Safety, albeit one with an internal contradiction Spock could drive a starship through. Just because they're FOS most of the time they claim Culture! as excuse doesn't mean they're always FOS about it. Besides, barely 2/10 Japanese would get why the law is like that. They would just say That's the Law and leave it at that.

I still want to know how and why the journalist came up with said line, but we might just have some talent on our hands. Betcha a fiver ole Reiko explained it to him. She is a civil engineer after all.

BTW, fecking hell on that English translation, eh!?. A guy could make a mint even just rewriting that nonsense.

Great discusson, btw. Good find, good OP, SJ. :spin: :banana:
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby wagyl » Fri May 29, 2015 7:01 pm

The virgins are covered by
Article 63 Employer shall not have persons less than 18 years of age work underground.

i wonder how the mountain goddess feels about the transgendered. What if they are still in transition?

Legal translation is not literature. And i bet I can find something that sounds just as clunky in both your official languages!

Oh, and as for what bit makes me think a secular rather than religious interpretation is more appropriate? I would point to the part which permits the pregnant woman to choose not to notify her employer that she doesn't want to work underground. It is about her right to refuse, not a restriction on her right to work.

You could say that the paragraph also gave the anthropology majors something they want to believe...
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby kurogane » Fri May 29, 2015 7:10 pm

Very clever. You kept that up your sleeve you sneaky devil. You win, though I still don't see that completely negates the potential of an underlying religious logic, though it does make it an exercise in freeform interpretation, which certainly makes the article appear to be skating on the usual thin ice. As you said, it's an article on Japan. Throw in some information, add 2 dashes of crumbled Lonely Planet cultural digestives, stir and serve.

And Pshah! and Balderdash! to your scurrilous suggestion about the quality of our bilingual magnificence. The French is always impeccable and complaining about the quality of the English is Racist!, so it's never a problem :mrgreen: As for the quality of translation there, that was gibberish even by the standards of legislative English. I had to go to the Japanese to figure out WTF they meant in the first passage.

Is this some weird hobby (knowing the Labour Code), or were you just keeping an ace in the hole there with Article 63? There was a guy on Gaijinpot that knew the Labour Code every which way but loose. Really nice guy, but as far as hobbies go...... :rolleyes:

;)
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby wagyl » Fri May 29, 2015 7:16 pm

As far as hobbies go, I think I would describe it as "Knowing how to search for the text string '18' in a webpage."

My line of work requires that I, reluctantly, know my way around laws, and how to find them.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby kurogane » Fri May 29, 2015 7:22 pm

Narooheso. Anyways, fine fun.

EDIT: the plot thickens. The author of the Bloomberg article is a Haafu with a chip on her shoulder:
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/oct/02 ... -halflife2

RE-EDIT: make that a small boulder
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Russell » Fri May 29, 2015 8:23 pm

Bleached by Coligny...
Last edited by Russell on Fri May 29, 2015 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Router recommendation

Postby Coligny » Fri May 29, 2015 8:26 pm

BLEACH PLEASE...
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby wagyl » Fri May 29, 2015 8:51 pm

Russell wrote:Bleached by Coligny...

I am glad I spotted that before the mop came out.

That is one powerful mountain goddess, operating by the beach! At the risk of another bleaching order, it gives a new meaning to "rock hard."
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Coligny » Fri May 29, 2015 9:08 pm

Russell wrote:Bleached by Coligny...


There should be a limit to the debaucherie on this forum...

Drawing the line at "old people bragging aboot their sexcapades on the backseat of kei jidoshas" seems far enough already...
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby kurogane » Sat May 30, 2015 5:39 am

So, given Russell's little anecdote, I vote that there is a connection but still reserve approval of her making that connection in a Bloomberg article. Had it been a Faux News article, well............
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Sat May 30, 2015 8:01 am

Coligny wrote:
Russell wrote:Bleached by Coligny...


There should be a limit to the debaucherie on this forum...

Drawing the line at "old people bragging aboot their sexcapades on the backseat of kei jidoshas" seems far enough already...


Damn. What did I miss?
Faith is believing what you know ain't so. -- Mark Twain
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Russell » Sat May 30, 2015 9:21 am

Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Coligny wrote:
Russell wrote:Bleached by Coligny...


There should be a limit to the debaucherie on this forum...

Drawing the line at "old people bragging aboot their sexcapades on the backseat of kei jidoshas" seems far enough already...


Damn. What did I miss?

Out of his sexual frustrations, Coligny bleached my post, which was highly relevant to this thread.

Seems some people were enjoying it, so here we go with a reprint.

My Missus worked in a tunnel under construction to translate between the tunneling crew from a contracted U.S. company and a Japanese construction company. That was around 1995.

Though that ancient superstition about the mountain god was mentioned, the Japanese company overrode their superstition because they were desperate to find a good enough translator so that it would at least be possible to have a decent communication (the translator before her was a guy, because of this superstition, but his English level was so insufficient that they could not guarantee the absence of dangerous misunderstandings).

No law was mentioned at the time by the Japanese company.

Aaanyway, the female mountain god was so jealous that another female was in her mountain that my Missus became pregnant, which was the end of this lucrative very well-paying job for her. As far as I know that was me having caused it in a Keijidosha at a place far away from the mountain, so one can imagine the powers of this mountain god...

:shock:
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Coligny » Sat May 30, 2015 11:12 am

Russell wrote:Out of his sexual frustrations, Coligny bleached my post, which was highly relevant to this thread.

Seems some people were enjoying it, so here we go with a reprint.


Hey Alex Jones, i just asked for mind bleach... Not everyone is into gerontopt0n...
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Russell » Sat May 30, 2015 11:49 am

Coligny wrote:
Russell wrote:Out of his sexual frustrations, Coligny bleached my post, which was highly relevant to this thread.

Seems some people were enjoying it, so here we go with a reprint.


Hey Alex Jones, i just asked for mind bleach... Not everyone is into gerontopt0n...

Confirms your sexual frustrations if you see pr0n in that.

And the point of the post is about the goddess of the mountain, more than anything else.
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Re: Mountain goddess no like competition

Postby Coligny » Sat May 30, 2015 12:16 pm

STFU n00b...

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