'almost anyone can become a loan shark'

[Taro Toporific]

The money hole
Loan sharks push debtors into . . .
The Japan Times: Sept. 14, 2003 - - - ... hundreds of thousands of victims of yamikinyu [(loan sharks)] in Japan. According to the National Police Agency, in just the first half of 2003, yamikinyu have lent out an astronomical 17 billion yen to approximately 166,000 desperate borrowers....
The absurd interest rates of yamikinyu are called tosan (to as in 10, san as in three, meaning 30 percent in 10 days) or togo (go as in five, meaning 50 percent in 10 days), for instance, depending on the rates of each yamikinyu. In simple terms, what this means is that the annual interest rate being charged by these illegal moneylenders is at least 1,000 percent -- against the maximum legal rate of 29.2 percent....
...all you need is a resident's card, a form of identification, a resume and 43,000 yen for the registration fee. "With this, almost anyone can become a moneylender"

[Steve Bildermann]

[cstaylor]

Probably indebtedness (or the lack of money thereof) has destroyed more lives than any other factor in history.

Well, I think war probably trumps debt.

[Steve Bildermann]

And how many wars have been fought over power, greed and personal enrichment.

[cstaylor]

And how many wars have been fought over power, greed and personal enrichment.

Ah, so to take a quote from "The Thin Red Line":

"Property... the whole fucking thing's about property!"

[Socratesabroad]

[Alcazar]

Uncontrollable personal debt is an inevitable result of the driving factor in all capitalist society.
Probably indebtedness (or the lack of money thereof) has destroyed more lives than any other factor in history.

Yes, personal debt is a facet of a capitalist society, but blaming the accrual of personal debt on capitalism ignores the fact that individuals are responsible for taking on that debt.

There were some very good points made in your post Socrates. Borrowing also enables people access to amounts of money they would never be able to attain simply by saving in order to start new business, build homes, get educated and generally develop their own lives.

It is irresponsible debt that people take on simply by overspending on crap like mobile phone bills, a new pair of shoes/handbag/outfit, an extravagant wedding/honeymoon, new car etc, when they can't truly afford to, that causes people problems. All these people living beyond their means, and for what? I think because a lot of them have no other purpose in life but to consume.

It just comes down to whether individuals are emotionally mature enough to suppress the urge for "Short term pleasure over Remote Reward".

I was wondering, Steve, how can you making a Marxist critique of capitalism when you were/are a business owner yourself?

[American Oyaji]

How can it be "Marxist" if it is the truth?

[cstaylor]

Paraphrasing from Marx: "The forces of production control the ideology of production". In short: those that have the most to gain from capitalism (the extremely wealthy and others with large reserves of capital) create an atmosphere that encourages reckless consumption. People, fooled into thinking they must consume the best of everything, outspend their capacity to make money. The current spending/saving ration in the United States is a good example.

IMHO, Marx got a few things wrong, but I believe this is what Steve B. is talking about.

[American Oyaji]

Hmmm.

I think I now know why the capitalist United States didn't want people to be intersted in Marxism. He may have had a few things WRONG.....

But he had some good points....I'm gonna have to go back and do some reading on him.

[Alcazar]

Hmmm.
I think I now know why the capitalist United States didn't want people to be interested in Marxism. He may have had a few things WRONG.....

But he had some good points....I'm gonna have to go back and do some reading on him.

Yes, do that because Marxism is considered an important and interesting way of analysing the way in which societies have been structured etc.

But remember that while Marxism (Communism) can look attractive on paper, it is unrealistic and is inherently against human values and human nature. People don't want to be equal. People also want to own private property and make their own decisions about how they live their lives.

Communists also always try to make excuses for the shortcomings of Communism, but Communism killed 100 million people last century, and lives on today in the depravity of North Korea.

American Oyaji, I know you are a religious guy, so you should also know that Marxism is totally against Christianity.

Marxism is also a product of a totally different era to ours, something worth remembering when you read Marx as he goes on about 'industrialists and landowners' etc.

[cstaylor]

Marxism is also a product of a totally different era to ours, something worth remembering when you read Marx as he goes on about 'industrialists and landowners' etc.

Yes, and many forward-thinking progressives made some changes in the early part of the 20th century that made things a little more tolerable for the working classes.

It's also worth noting that the so-called Communists in the 20th century cared more about overturning the applecart than they did for helping their fellow man. "Some animals are more equal than others" indeed.

[American Oyaji]

Did you know that there actually was a PERFECT communal community of Christians shortly after the death of Christ? Everyone's belongings belonged to everyone else. Everyone shared everything.

[Alcazar]

Did you know that there actually was a PERFECT communal community of Christians shortly after the death of Christ? Everyone's belongings belonged to everyone else. Everyone shared everything.

No I didn't know that, I can see how that would be possible in a strongly Christian group.

[cstaylor]

Did you know that there actually was a PERFECT communal community of Christians shortly after the death of Christ? Everyone's belongings belonged to everyone else. Everyone shared everything.

While they weren't being turned into Roman lion food.

[Socratesabroad]

Did you know that there actually was a PERFECT communal community of Christians shortly after the death of Christ? Everyone's belongings belonged to everyone else. Everyone shared everything.

I don't mean to be argumentative in any way, but I believe that the community of Christians you refer to were in fact legally residents of the province of Judea (having registered in the towns of their birth) under the auspices of a mixture of Roman and local law, while Paul was a Roman citizen and used that standing on several occaisions.
(too many Sunday School classes growing up)

If you are seeking socialist/communal example, I believe Owen's short-lived society would be more applicable. But I find few examples of disparate, non-like-minded individuals living in large numbers under such a communal system.

Point being, capitalism with dashes of socialism (a la 1920s progressivism) may have its pitfalls, but no one seems to have proferred a better alternative with empirical results on a national scale.

Better to keep the devil you know...

[American Oyaji]

CS, This was actually BEFORE Christianity was on the Roman Govt Radar.

It was just a short time after the death of Christ and they were learning and evangelizing.

[cstaylor]

Oyaji, you be wrong: How did Paul die?

The Bible does not tell us how or when the apostle Paul died, and history does not provide us with any information. The only thing we have to go on is Christian tradition, which has Paul being behead in Rome, around the mid 60s A.D., during the [url]reign of Nero[/url]. Most Bible dictionaries and some commentaries can give us details on the traditions surrounding Paul's death. The following are examples:

[Steve Bildermann]

[Steve Bildermann]

Loan sharks prey on jobless

Yami-kinyu-no-karakuri (Loan shark tricks)
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=book&id=156

Due to the current Japanese economic slump, jobs are becoming scarce for a lot of people. With no source of income, many people are filing for personal bankruptcy. Last year, more than 210,000 individuals filed for bankruptcy, compared to 9,910 in 1989. Within 14 years, the number is expected to be 20 times greater.

Facing economic hardship, many people at first apply for consumer loans for help, but generally these financing companies do not lend money to the unemployed. Which means that as a last resort, these jobless people look to illegal moneylenders for instant help.

This is the start of debtor's hell, which author Yoshitaka Fujiwara examines in "Yami-kinyu-no-karakuri" (Loan shark tricks); an account of the realities of loan sharking and all the dirty tricks they use on debtors.

Triple Suicide Forces Japanese To Face Menace Of Loan Sharks

By the time Akiyo Nishihira squatted on the tracks with her husband and her elderly brother in the path of an oncoming train, the loan shark had been calling nightly, demanding payment and sometimes threatening to kill her. He had been calling the takeout lunch stand where she worked, and the factory where her husband mopped floors. Calling her neighbors, profanely insisting that they must pay in her place.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A13705-2003Jul18&notFound=true

A loan guarantor taped a telephone conversation with a Nitshiei employee and later gave it to the Japanese media.

"You have two kidneys, don't you?" the debt collector said, "many of our borrowers have only one. You can sell a kidney for three million yen, or sell one of your eyes. How can you really say you can't find the money? Make some money quickly."