Self Defense Forces fail to catch alien Ming vessel

[Taro Toporific]

Japan's Navy spots Chinese submarine off coast
WAVY-TV, VA - Nov 12The two-thousand-ton Ming-class vessel was traveling on the surface through a strait about 25 miles off the southern coast of Japan's main island....
MING class vessels

[Caustic Saint]

Can't. Control. Fingers. Must. Make. Bad. Post.



Ah-aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[Neo-Rio]

Look out Ming! Here comes Flash Gordon!

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[American Oyaji]

darn double posts.

[American Oyaji]

I have ALWAYS thought that Ornella Muti was HOT HOT HOT

Flash Gordon Theme midi file

[Nagged]

A Ming class submarine is a diesel-electric attack submarine. (It's purpose is to sink enemy surface and submarine vessels as opposed to the nuclear/conventional missile launching submarines that often get dramatized in Hollywood movies)

Instead of nuclear power, it uses batteries which can be recharged near or on the surface by running it's diesel engine(s).

When running on batteries, this type of submarine can be very difficult to detect by passive sonar systems (active sonar will detect them if they are within range, the danger of using active sonar is that it can detected itself from an even further distance thus alerting enemy combatants to your position - a very unwise if not suicidal venture, this is why many commanders are reluctant to use it unless it gives them a definite tactical advantage)

At the same time, recharging the batteries via the diesel engine(s) is done with an air breathing mast called a snorkel, the process itself is known as snorkeling. This can be a dangerous operation as snorkeling is quite loud and easy to detect. Some navies are currently developing non-air breathing diesel submarines so that their batteries can be recharged while still submerged. (Nuclear submarines on the other hand do not need to re-surface until such a time that their stock of food and other supplies run out, their crews would die of starvation long before the reactor ran out of fuel)

I can only surmise that the submarine in this story had some kind of mechanical failure as most navies do their utmost to keep the location of their vessels secret, especially submarines.

Then again, it could be for some other reason entirely different. Non-friendly submarines being spotted off coastlines where they do not belong has happened in the past, it will surely occur in the future also.

[Caustic Saint]

When running on batteries, this type of submarine can be very difficult to detect by passive sonar systems (active sonar will detect them if they are within range, the danger of using active sonar is that it can detected itself from an even further distance thus alerting enemy combatants to your position - a very unwise if not suicidal venture, this is why many commanders are reluctant to use it unless it gives them a definite tactical advantage)

"Give me a ping, Vasiliy. One. Ping. Only."

[Nagged]

Yeah, without re-reading the book or watching the movie again, isn't this where Captain Ramius is trying to communicate his intentions before he defects?

Gutsy move considering his predicament at the time. Stealing the latest sub from the Soviet fleet and then surviving any misunderstandings on behalf of the Americans would certainly give me sweaty palms.

[Caustic Saint]

Yeah, without re-reading the book or watching the movie again, isn't this where Captain Ramius is trying to communicate his intentions before he defects?

Yup.

[leathernick]

Look out Ming! Here comes Flash Gordon!

Ming doesn't look too worried. Actually, Ming look kind of pissed.

[Caustic Saint]

MING SMASH!!!

[kurohinge1]

Here's possibly another Ming vessle that wasn't caught ...


But we can rebuild him ...



Those two-thousand-ton subs are tricky to spot - they look so much like whales - well, massive, Chinese-eating whales with big hats on - so I guess it's lucky they didn't run into a Japanese scientific-research (whaling) ship, or they may have been harpooned.

[Nagged]

Funny stuff there kurohinge1...

I have to wonder why a Ming class submarine is doing anywhere near Japan, let alone within 25 miles off the coast.

Consider the weapons loadout. Mines and torpedoes can do a lot of damage to shipping but not much else. (On the other hand, a boomer would be a significant cause for concern...sneak in close to the coastline before firing off a volley of ICBMs. Bend over & kiss your ass goodbye if that happpens. Ouch! )

It might have been in transit. This is unlikely because if you look at a map, you'll see that Japan is north of most of China's coastline, so where would it be in transit to? I couldn't imagine it going to Russia, Canada or the United States. (Is there a base on the small strip of coastline of China located between North Korea and Russia?)

The only possible reasons I can think of is that it was either engaged in practice/actual surveillance or it was intent in getting in close enough to send in some swimmers. (North Korea has done this in the past). Given the proximity, any of these reasons would seem plausible. But considering the need for Ming class subs need to snorkel, they would have been far better off using one of their Han class nuclear attack subs as they can remain submerged without needing to recharge any batteries and would have a far greater chance of remaining undetected.

One thing I will say is likely... being spotted like they were is certainly going to cause a fair bit of dialogue and explanation.

I think there is a good chance that heads will roll once they get back to port... But then again, I certainly wouldn't want to assume anything!

[Taro Toporific]

China's submarine poses no threat to Japan
(11-18-03) "People's Daily"-- the official newspaper of the Chinese Communist Party
...An American expert on international issues said that as an island country, Japan's stress on the security of surrounding sea areas is understandable, but Japan is evidently oversensitive, it regards its neighboring countries as threat; on this basis, Japan has excessively developed its sea power, which, in turn, constitutes threat to its neighboring countries....

[Nagged]

For the Japanese Maritime Self Defence Forces to be a serious threat to neighboring countries, they would need large transports to ship troops and supplies, unless they are going to sit off shore and just blaze away. Not much point in that either, as most naval weaponry is basically designed to sink other vessels or shoot enemy missiles/aircraft out of the sky. Perhaps they could blow up a few buildings, but not much beyond that.

I'm not saying that Japan does not have credible military power, but the majority of their weapons are of a defensive nature. At the same time, all of their neighbors have very significant military forces that do not have the same restrictions.

In spite of all the hearsay, I don't really think Japan is going to be much of a threat to anyone, at least not in the near future.

[cstaylor]

(On the other hand, a boomer would be a significant cause for concern...sneak in close to the coastline before firing off a volley of ICBMs. Bend over & kiss your ass goodbye if that happpens. Ouch! )

Not to nag Nagged, but regular American hunter submarines carry TLAMS (commonly known as Tomahawks) that can be nuclear tipped. Having a Boomer close to shore wouldn't change the flight time very much, as the missiles are designed to escape the atmosphere and fly into space before reentering over the target IIRC. Boomers were designed as a first-strike deterrent.

[Nagged]

(On the other hand, a boomer would be a significant cause for concern...sneak in close to the coastline before firing off a volley of ICBMs. Bend over & kiss your ass goodbye if that happens. Ouch! )

Not to nag Nagged, but regular American hunter submarines carry TLAMS (commonly known as Tomahawks) that can be nuclear tipped. Having a Boomer close to shore wouldn't change the flight time very much, as the missiles are designed to escape the atmosphere and fly into space before reentering over the target IIRC. Boomers were designed as a first-strike deterrent.

Glad to see somebody is paying attention.

Actually I was thinking of Soviet subs found off the eastern US Coast during the Cold War. (There was a Victor III that was forced to surface because it had a tangled towed array off the Carolina coast in 1983, I've seen the photo in a book but can't find it with Google, give me time ) In this case, sneaking in close could make a big difference, perhaps they can alter the flight path to fly a more direct route? In any case, a shorter flight time to Washington for example would give that much less time to react and chances are this would have given the Soviets a very significant advantage by wiping out the cream of the US military and civilian leadership. (Although, with enough nukes flying to and forth, I don't think anyone would actually win in the long term. Having the weapons is not enough, you must have the political will to use them)

Actually, it's a well know fact that the ICBMs carried by ex-Soviet boomers have (had) sufficient range to hit the US while they were still moored to the wharf in their home port. It is just a matter of expediency to hide them well enough so nobody knows where they are. The old adage, "if you can see them, you can kill them".

Yes, some variants of the Tomahawks are capable of being fitted with nuclear warheads and they will certainly do the job, though the longer range and bigger yield of larger and dedicated nukes might be big enough that they be the preferred weapon of choice at the time.

[Nagged]

CS, I owe you an apology regarding my referral to the Victor III sub in the above post. I was under the mistaken impression that they are boomers when in fact they are attack subs. (I must have had them mixed up with another sub class, I do know that Deltas and Typhoons are boomers.)

What the sub in question was up to is anyone's guess. It was rather close to a couple of US Navy bases so it could have been trying to trail a boomer out of port, this is a part of the cat & mouse games that subs play.

Anyway, as you very correctly pointed out, attack class subs do carry nuclear tipped missiles as well as conventional types. I still maintain that the less reaction time, the better of catching the opposing force off balance - perhaps shorter range nukes might have an advantage in this regard if the distance was minimized? Unfortunately, I don't have enough hard data to make an objective comparison but in any case, I have come across references that a surprise attack such as this is one of the more feared scenarios in the event of a nuclear war.