NEW EU Aibus A380!!!

[F_O_R_E_X]

tsuru in your humble opinion , are the chinese capable of meeting safety standards & correct maintainance with regards to airbus??

i'm european and a little embarassed with all this tragic shameful delays at EADS etc....
& failures to deliver on time etc..... but hoping the chinese wont add insult to injury?? i mean we are talking about big responsabilities to protect passengers.
this is no fake viagra issue.

[Tsuru]

No. They are not. Not if you are talking about an airplane factory in the sense that aluminium scrap goes in on one end and shiny, finished airliners come out the other. The aircraft will still be engineered in Europe and the parts will still be made where they are now, the only thing that will be done in China is putting all the bits that come from Europe together. All the QA-ing and pre-delivery prepping will initially be done by engineers from Europe (people like me). Chinese people will be trained to do these things in the future as the line starts to gather momentum, but this factory will probably never have a 100% Chinese staff. Aircraft will still have to be build according to FAA/JAA/CASA/ICAO/IATA/Etc. standards to be allowed to fly beyond China's borders, whether they are put together in Europe or China.

Having said that, you must know that when it comes to maintaining and upgrading western aircraft according to the relevant specs the Chinese are doing an excellent job. For example, TAECO in Xiamen already does a lot of heavy maintenance on Western and Japanese fleets, including complete CD-checks (a complete overhaul, if you will). They also pioneered the BCF, or "Boeing Converted Freighter": a passenger 747-400 that has been converted to do freighter work in the post-9/11 slump and have been very succesful in selling them to Asian airlines like JAL, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, etc.

I wouldn't worry about the quality of the finished product... what I would worry about is how the cooperation between European and Chinese engineers and managers will develop... Personally I have found it very unpleasant to work with Chinese at times, as they are generally quite rude and the two company cultures can be very very different in certain aspects.

Anyone who has ever discussed anything with a young Chinese who could afford to go to college will probably agree.

[F_O_R_E_X]

[quote="Tsuru"]

what I would worry about is how the cooperation between European and Chinese engineers and managers will develop... Personally I have found it very unpleasant to work with Chinese at times, as they are generally quite rude and the two company cultures can be very very different in certain aspects.

Anyone who has ever discussed anything with a young Chinese who could afford to go to college will probably agree. ]

nice analysis tsuru.....
i never worked with chinese directly, only indirectly

their rudeness that you cited is aconsequence of what?

misunderstanding english ?
inferiority complex ?
superiority complex ?
lack of adapting to foreign collegues ?
arrogance ?

[Tsuru]

nice analysis tsuru.....
i never worked with chinese directly, only indirectly

their rudeness that you cited is aconsequence of what?

misunderstanding english ?
inferiority complex ?
superiority complex ?
lack of adapting to foreign collegues ?
arrogance ?

Afraid of straying into PC sensitive territory here, I would say it's a combination of arrogance, inferiority complex and the famous only-child factor, but that's more about how their personality works, and not really how they function in a company. The reason Chinese are so good at this airplane stuff is that they are given a set of very specific rules, procedures and checklists drawn up by European, American or Brazilian engineers for them to follow to the digit, and this happens to be exactly what they're good at, following other people's rules and aviation is exactly the place where deviation from prescribed procedures can cause lives to be lost. The problems arise when creativity is required in the workplace, and it doesn't matter if this is in a management, engineering or scientific environment. I'm sure there are creative Chinese out there, but as far as I can see they are very few and far between

They have been taught the world works one way and there is absolutely no way in hell there might be a remote possibility that there is another way around a certain problem than their college problem-shooting guide prescribes, which is a shame because most young Chinese I've met would be brilliant young people if it weren't for that dreaded CCP box that is constraining their thinking. If they would manage to scale that barrier they would discover the reasons behind the existence of their rules rather than just acknowledging their existence and following them.

They are also keen at limiting themselves to the task they've been given to carry out with their little red rulebook, and the main incompatibility problem with European thinking around the office is that a Chinese doesn't care what some guy at a workstation on the other side of the office is doing, and doesn't adjust his workflow accordingly to match that of his colleague. I'm not saying that's what all Europeans do, but a lot of problems and frustration arise from people that are part of the same chain not communicating and acting accordingly. And I'm not even talking about making sacrifices for your colleagues yet... going the extra mile (kilometer?) to get the project finished in time so everyone can lean back apparently is not-done in China.

I have my task, you have yours. He is told what to do, and just does it... nothing more, nothing less. To put it bluntly he might as well be working from home.

I have nothing against Chinese, but it worries me how many of them are studying so hard to be management drones without even a hint of creativity. There's so much more to making a company work than following a bunch of rules written up by some European or American professor.

[Buraku]

This comes on the heels of the news that Chinese airlines have ordered another 150 A320-series aircraft, on top of another 150 already on order... it would make sense for these to be built and maintained in China. A320 production is not going to be transferred to China, the plant will be built for construction and maintenance of Chinese-ordered A320s only. The Toulouse and Hamburg facilities where the A320 is being built are already running at max capacity, spewing out rougly one new aircraft every day, 365 days a year. There is simply no room to build an extra 300 aircraft for China, so also from a maintenance standpoint it makes perfect sense to build them in China.

As for the Made-in-China thing: as far back as the 1980s McDonnell-Douglas tried to sign a deal with China for domestic production of the MD-80 airliner to meet te needs of the growing Chinese domestic market in the shape of the "trunkliner": a 100-passenger jet as specified in the CCP's economic plan. Allegedly the whole thing stranded (predictably) on patent issues, and now Airbus is going to pick up where the Californians left. The A320 is roughly the same size as the MD-80 series (albeit a little more modern). They are not alone in trying to tranfer some of their production capacity to China: Brazilian manufacturer Embraer has already opened a new facility in Harbin to produce the ERJ-145 domestic jet, about half the size of the A320.

Politics in the 1980s wasn't right, and you had massacres and serious human rights stuff going on in China. McDonnell-Douglas were already getting strained by the costs of the DCs, the company was in trouble and even big military sellers like the Eagle were nothing compared to the F-16, there were rumors that the tailplane of the MD-11 design was too small. McDonnell Douglas jumped the gun by moving to China too early. Today China is a different world and Airbus may think 2006 is the right year to make the move.

Were you expecting America or Europe to outsource production to Japan - land of the baka-bomber ? (a ww2 plane that destroyed itself before attacking the enemy)

[Tsuru]

I'm sorry, but I have to call BS. There still is serious human rights stuff going on in China to this day, the only difference to the 1980s is political control on commercial enterprise, the number of Chinese with money to burn and the amount of money to be made by foreign ventures.

If the human rights issue was ever a consideration no business would invest in China purely on moral grounds... not in 2006, and not in 1986.

Now, where is that BBC movie of Chinese borderguards shooting Tibettan nuns.... ah, here: Link

[emperor]

The aircraft will still be engineered in Europe and the parts will still be made where they are now, the only thing that will be done in China is putting all the bits that come from Europe together.

It seems so illogical to ship all those parts so far just to assemble them.
I saw that A380 doc on discovery - where they were using a flatbed truck to transport fusilage across the French countryside at painfully slow speeds.
I know theres politics involved when sharing the jobs out with not just China but all those European countries... but wouldnt the end product be much cheaper if it was all just built in the same place.

[Buraku]

I'm sorry, but I have to call BS.

China is a land of equal opportunity, all people of the motherland, Bai, Miao, Tibetan, Han, Ewenki are all rounded up equally, shoot or crushed by China's Iron fist..there ain't no discrimination here, unlike the bullshit you get from Gere or his holyness the Daddy-Lama


So-called Democracies like Sri Lanka, Mali, Pakistan, Angola, India, Namibia, Indonesia and Iraq have lots of shit going for them...oh how American style democracy does such great shit in these places.....Child labor, crazy religious groups, Mass poverty, radical groups murdering people, Cast System, Radical Muslim terrorists or Hindu radicals running rampage on streets, lack of Clean water, children as beggars in the streets, people dying from hunger....you get the picture

There is no doubt China is fucked up,
but its a lot better than some of those other so-called democracy that Western companies are so keen to promote as free nations and are so eager to invest in.

It seems so illogical to ship all those parts so far just to assemble them.
I saw that A380 doc on discovery - where they were using a flatbed truck to transport fusilage across the French countryside at painfully slow speeds.
I know theres politics involved when sharing the jobs out with not just China but all those European countries... but wouldnt the end product be much cheaper if it was all just built in the same place.

A380 isn't being made in China, but the smaller A320 might
the A320 is like the small Boeing 737 (a smaller aircraft flown by Alaska Airlines, SAS, Ryanair and Continental Airlines)

[Greji]

A380 isn't being made in China, but the smaller A320 might
the A320 is like the small Boeing 737 (a smaller aircraft flown by Alaska Airlines, SAS, Ryanair and Continental Airlines)

Buraku, Tsuru likes to play with airplanes a lot. You might take a look at his posts on this topic in this thread! You might be surprised.

[Tsuru]

It seems so illogical to ship all those parts so far just to assemble them.
I saw that A380 doc on discovery - where they were using a flatbed truck to transport fusilage across the French countryside at painfully slow speeds.
I know theres politics involved when sharing the jobs out with not just China but all those European countries... but wouldnt the end product be much cheaper if it was all just built in the same place.

It's funny you should say that, because just last night I read that the CEO of Airbus China is expecting to start local production of the A320 wings. The final assembly will take place in Tianjin.

Flight International article

The British won't be pleased as right now they build all the wings carrying Airbus aircraft at Filton. Not just some, ALL. Including the ones for the A380 which are too big for the Beluga and have to be carried to Toulouse on a barge and by flatbed truck in the middle of the night.

With the exception of those for the A380, all the Airbus structures and sections are shipped to Hamburg and Toulouse on the Beluga A300ST, but when Tianjin comes online the bits will be brought in by ship.

Buraku, Tsuru likes to play with airplanes a lot.

And I get paid to do it, too!

[Adhesive]

Fedex has just cancelled their order with Airbus;

http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20061107/fedex-airbus-a380.htm

Wonder who is next?

[Greji]

Fedex has just cancelled their order with Airbus]http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20061107/fedex-airbus-a380.htm[/url]

Wonder who is next?

It would seem like that could be a major setback in the cargo industry for Airbus. What's your take on this Tsuru?

[Tsuru]

It would seem like that could be a major setback in the cargo industry for Airbus. What's your take on this Tsuru?

Ever since FedEx ordered them I've been thinking: What the hell do they need such a huge aircraft for? The biggest ones they have flying currently are MD-11s and DC-10s, and they fly out of Memphis of all places. Mind you they are still the largest operator of the A300/A310 freighters, so to call canceling a 10-plane order a "major setback" just after Qantas ordered an extra 8...

You know, as the French are sorting out the cable mess all by themselves it seems to me it's just one less thing that they have to worry about.

Korean or Malaysian may be next: both have money in the A380 that they need more desperately in other places... MAS may even go bankrupt in the next 12 months because of poor management. Sadly for them dissolving the acquisition contracts and cancelling a delivery slot costs even more money, which is a tall order if you don't have it.

[Kuang_Grade]

Ever since FedEx ordered them I've been thinking: What the hell do they need such a huge aircraft for? The biggest ones they have flying currently are MD-11s and DC-10s, and they fly out of Memphis of all places. M

From a now quite outdated press release
http://www.fedex.com/us/about/today/companies/express/a380.html?link=4

FedEx, which announced its purchase of 10 A380-800Fs in January 2001, worked closely with Airbus working groups on design details of the cargo version. Delivery of the first A380 cargo plane will be followed by two more by the end of 2008, three in 2009, three in 2010 and the 10th in 2011. FedEx also holds options for 10 additional aircraft.

During the first year of operation, the three FedEx planes will operate on long-range routes between FedEx hubs in Asia and North America. Additional routes from Europe to North America and Europe to Asia will be added as more aircraft are added to the fleet in coming years.

While Memphis may seem like an odd choice, it is roughly located in the middle-ish part of the US and pretty far away from any congested airspace around the various major metro areas.

[Tsuru]

It just doesn't make sense. Everyone wants their parcels delivered ASAP, and given the same amount of weekly cargo on a given route you are faced with cutting the operating frequency by 2 times if you fly a plane on that route that is 2 times bigger if you want to operate it economically. Capacity increase will pay off after time as your turnover increases, but initially you are stuck with a massive amount of overcapacity. Airplanes that carry 50% cargo and 50% air just don't make money anymore these days, and FedEx knows that all too well. Their choice for the 777F (which is about the same size as the MD-11 they fly now) makes much, much more sense to me, as the capacity gap with their current fleet is nonexistant.
UPS however, do operate the 747 classic so they should have less problems filling the A380 on these high-density routes.

It might just be the case that they already figured this out a long time ago, and are using the delays as leverage to wiggle their way out of their order. Which they did. The fact that they have opted to go for the 777 is a testament to this, as 15 777s don't represent the same capacity increase as 10 A380s do. If they wanted to stick to their original planned capacity increase they would have ordered 20 or more 777s, not 15.

About FedEx having worked close with Airbus on the design for the A380F: even ANA and JAL had their say and yet they ended up not ordering a single aircraft. Mind you, all these airlines wanting to customize their aircraft is exactly what's biting the Frenchies in the ass with the IFE and seat wiring: If every airline wants something else designing and testing a complete system for up to 800 passengers 15 times over should be pretty much what hell must be like to the interior design engineers.

[Kuang_Grade]

While I'm not questioning your math, I think it is more a case of not all cargo is uber time sensitive for fedex...Thanks to emails and PDFs, I think their overnight biz has been flat or down for years while 2 and 3 day and ground shipments has been where their package growth as been for the last couple of years. That nowadays fedex is more about efficiency, tracking, and security vs. only just about speed of shipment (UPS is similar but fedex still maintains a more speedy orientation). This may have been a case of where fedex would say to someone like Apple, I'll give you a better price if I can ship your stuff out of Guangdong every 48 hours with an A380 vs. every 24 hours with 777s. A few months back, I got a ipod from apple that was built in China, then engraved, then shipped out of China and then delivered on the US east coast by Fedex just 78 hours after I placed my online order. I would have still been blown away if it showed up 102 or even 126 hours after I ordered it.

Also given that shipments have a definite seasonality, it may have also been the case that while the A380 may have not been fully utilized at all times, that lost efficiency was cheaper than having to buy a second plane to handle peak loads...but I'm sure they've got a few dozen Phds working massive linear programming for max optimization vs carrying cost vs staff costs vs. etc. vs. etc.

[Tsuru]

I wouldn't count on airlines having that much brainpower behind their operation if I were you

[Tsuru]

How to build an A380 in 7 minutes:



This is actually a very old video, but for some reason Google Video removed it the first time round. Enjoy it while it lasts!

[Ol Dirty Gaijin]

Boeing Appoints New President Of Boeing Japan

CHICAGO, Nov. 13 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA) today named Nicole Piasecki vice president of Boeing International and president of Boeing Japan. Based in Tokyo, Piasecki will be responsible for developing and strengthening Boeing's presence and partnerships in Japan. She will report to Laurette Koellner, president, Boeing International.

http://www10.mcadcafe.com/nbc/articles/view_article.php?section=CorpNews&articleid=324526

[Buraku]

Airbus superjumbo A380, the world's largest passenger airliner, arrived Sunday at Narita airport east of Tokyo, marking its first landing in Japan and drawing many aviation fans at and around Japan's largest international airport.
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/390951

[Tsuru]

Gulf News

Airbus has finally overcome the teething problems of re-wiring 500km of cables in its mammoth fuselage and expects the world's first end-to-end double-decker to receive technical certification by December 13, a senior Airbus official said.

[Buraku]

UPS May Join Fedex in Canceling Airbus A380 Orders
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=2806972

[IkemenTommy]

Now it's 2007. Have we seen any in service yet? Singapore Airlines?

[Tsuru]

Apparently all the cabling issues have been resolved, and if Airbus is going to stick to their rather pessimistic timeline of October this year for the first furnished aircraft to be delivered to SIA, well, that's when we're going to see it.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out the october thing was indeed a conservative estimate and SIA is going to get a surprise phone call from Hamburg telling them their first plane is ready and waiting for delivery May-June-July-ish.

[Taro Toporific]

CNN has just posted a news flash that:
"the French PM announced that Airbus will lay off 10,000 in a cost-cutting move"....

[Tsuru]

Yep, EADS is aiming to save billions of euros now that the A380 is as good as finished. Big fight broke out in upper management a few days ago between ze German and French shareholders about who should lose how many people, and they ended up having to suspend a few further meetings.

I guess this means the French have agreed to take most of the collateral.

[Kuang_Grade]

Well, it looks like there won't be any customers for the A380 cargo version now...
http://ups.com/pressroom/us/press_releases/press_release/0,1088,4873,00.html

UPS to Cancel A380 Order
ATLANTA, March 2, 2007 - UPS (NYSE:UPS) today announced its intent to cancel later this year an order for 10 Airbus A380 freighters.
The final cancellation decision will be formally presented to Airbus on the first date specified under an agreement reached last week that gives either party the right to terminate the order.

Last week's agreement specified a revised delivery schedule that delayed UPS's first A380 jumbo freighter from 2010 to 2012. UPS originally expected its first freighter in 2009.

UPS had intended to complete an internal study of whether it could wait until 2012 for the aircraft, but now understands Airbus is diverting employees from the A380 freighter program to work on the passenger version of the plane.

"Based on our previous discussions, we had felt that 2012 was a reasonable estimate of when Airbus could supply this plane," said David Abney, UPS's chief operating officer and president of UPS Airlines. "We no longer are confident that Airbus can adhere to that schedule. UPS has built one of the largest airlines in the world in order to ensure reliable service to our customers, and we're confident we have the resources to continue doing so in the future."

[kurohinge1]

[SIZE="4"]Qantas lands the big one[/SIZE]



"An Airbus A380, the world's largest passenger jet, passes a taxiing Qantas Airlines Boeing 747 after touching down at Los Angeles International Airport.
Photo: AP"

Qantas Airways made US aviation history today when its new superjumbo passenger jet touched down at Los Angeles International Airport.

It was a spectacular US debut for the Airbus A380 - the world's largest passenger jet, which can carry up to 850 passengers.

The test flight began in Toulouse, France, and the landing drew thousands of spectators who ringed the Los Angeles airport.

The touchdown was also broadcast live by several Los Angeles TV stations.

"This is an historic event and this is a magnificent aircraft," Wally Mariani, Qantas's senior executive vice-president of the Americas and Pacific said.

Airbus, the French-based airline maker, ensured maximum publicity for the US debut of its new superjumbo, which dwarfs rival Boeing's 747.

As the Qantas A380 landed in Los Angeles, another A380 flown by German airline company Lufthansa was scheduled to land at New York's JFK Airport.

The Qantas A380 did not carry passengers, while Lufthansa's had 500 passengers on board.

Both flights were important test events for the giant plane.

The dual landings will test both airports, which have spent millions of dollars building longer runways and boarding areas to cater for the A380s.

The Qantas A380 did not have the airline's famous flying kangaroo insignia, instead carrying the Airbus insignia.

Qantas was included in today's landing because it will be the first airline to fly an A380 commercially to Los Angeles.

Qantas plans to begin commercial flights from Australia to Los Angeles with its new fleet of A380s in August next year.

While the double-decker A380, which has a wingspan almost as large as a football field, can carry 850 passengers, Qantas is likely to reconfigure the plane to seat just 500 to give extra space to customers.

"The A380 will bring a lot of benefits to the customers," Mariani said. "It's quite fuel efficient, less noisy, and environmentally it is more friendly than aircraft of a similar size."

- - - - - - - - -

[Greji]

"....
The Qantas A380 did not have the airline's famous flying kangaroo insignia, instead carrying the Airbus insignia...."

That's strange. I would have thought they would have put on Charles's Logo!

[American Oyaji]

I never thought anything could make a 747 look small.

BTW, anyone have any size comparisons with this new Airbus plane and the US military's C5?