Buying a laptop for my Father-in-law...

[Adhesive]

My Japanese father-in-law needs a laptop. He has never used a computer before, and his English is limited. However, he can type in romanized Japanese with an old typewriter he has, so I'm assuming he will be able to make the transition to an English keyboard fairly easily.

Should I go ahead and grab this Toshiba A135-S4656 here in the US for $399, and just install a Japanese OS, or, should I find a laptop in Japan that already has a Japanese OS and keyboard? How are the prices in places like akihabra and denden town lately? Last time I was there it wasn't much cheaper than laptops in the U.S.

[Neo-Rio]

Most people here will probably tell you to get an Apple Mac for him.

Laptops with Windows Vista on board have HUGE problems with battery life (unless you turn the fancy graphics off), so really that only leaves you with Windows XP or a Mac.

[FG Lurker]

If you are going to be supporting him then buy him what you are comfortable with -- XP or Mac.

I'd definitely get him a Japanese keyboard though as the layout of non-alphanumeric keys is quite different. The henkan and other special keys are easier on J-keyboards too.

[FG Lurker]

One other thing as well... It used to be with Win2K (and earlier) that you could buy an English machine with a legit Windows license and then use the same serial number to switch it to Japanese. This was officially against the EULA but it was possible to do.

You can't do this with XP (or Vista) anymore as the keys are language specific. So if you buy him a notebook Stateside you'll end up paying the MS tax twice, once for the unneeded English OS and then again for Japanese.

[Greji]

My Japanese father-in-law needs a laptop.

I would really, really, recommend you get him a Mac. The set up, connections and everything is so much simpler for a beginner on a Mac than a windoze outfit, it is a boon for tyros in the computer game. Then after he becomes profiecient, he can switch to Windows if he needs their system.

[Kuang_Grade]

I never had good luck even just upgrading OS on laptops let alone installing a new one...it always struck me that laptops often had funky drivers that made making big changes an 'adventure'...but this is based on experiences 5 or 6 years ago, so things might be better nowadays (ie, the parts have become more standardized). I just poked around yodobashi's site and it looks like new laptops in Japan haven't matched the significant price drops that have occurred in the US market over the last two years...Also, those cheap US toshiba laptops are likely much larger than the models they are selling in Japan (many of which are super tiny/thin by US standards), so swapping out keyboards might not be a snap in Japan (although you can always just plug in a full size 1200 yen USB J keyboard). You might want to call up some of the direct sales guys that deal more with businesses like Lenovo and see if they can install J OS/J keyboard on your US machine. Likewise, you might want to check out some of the ads in US based Japanese media...usually there are one or two ads for small computer shops that sell computers with J OS/keyboards for J folks in the US

[Adhesive]

Thanks everyone. I would consider a mac if it weren't for the price barrier and my complete lack of experience with them. I will find something with XP and set it up real nice and simple. I have both xp and vista on my very powerful Desktop and I absolutely hate vista.

[FG Lurker]

I never had good luck even just upgrading OS on laptops let alone installing a new one...it always struck me that laptops often had funky drivers that made making big changes an 'adventure'...

This is very true if you buy a Sony (fuck I hate Sony), and somewhat true with other brands that have brand-specific buttons and dials. Even home users should buy business-oriented machines such as a ThinkPad. There are never problems with these and IBM/Lenovo have the most awesome support and driver download system.

[FG Lurker]

I would really, really, recommend you get him a Mac. The set up, connections and everything is so much simpler for a beginner on a Mac than a windoze outfit,

It may be true that if someone knows nothing about either system then the Mac is easier to learn. However since Adhesive is likely going to have to support this machine it makes sense for him to buy what he knows and can support easily over the phone.

[Greji]

It may be true that if someone knows nothing about either system then the Mac is easier to learn. However since Adhesive is likely going to have to support this machine it makes sense for him to buy what he knows and can support easily over the phone.

I think you're right on there Lurk, but the only question would be will Adhesive have the time to continuously provide the support for the dad-in-law? If he can't, I would think Mac would still be worthy of consideration.

[Adhesive]

Can I get a decent Mac for under $400?

[Charles]

Can I get a decent Mac for under $400?

Sure. A used G4 MacBook or a Mac Mini can be had for about that price, it won't be the fastest Mac around, but it will still run the latest OS versions (even the upcoming 10.5) and have all the necessary features (like WiFi). Your in-law won't notice it's slow if he's never used a computer before.

Just make sure you get a Mac with Airport and extra RAM. Fortunately RAM is cheap for the older models.

[Adhesive]

Sure. A used G4 MacBook or a Mac Mini can be had for about that price, it won't be the fastest Mac around, but it will still run the latest OS versions (even the upcoming 10.5) and have all the necessary features (like WiFi). Your in-law won't notice it's slow if he's never used a computer before.

Just make sure you get a Mac with Airport and extra RAM. Fortunately RAM is cheap for the older models.

He's already crapping his pants that I'm about to buy a used car for the family, I don't think I would be able to slip a used laptop past him. Besides, I've always assumed laptops were one of the worst possible things to buy used, considering the likelyhood of them being abused and all.

[Charles]

He's already crapping his pants that I'm about to buy a used car for the family, I don't think I would be able to slip a used laptop past him. Besides, I've always assumed laptops were one of the worst possible things to buy used, considering the likelyhood of them being abused and all.

Well, it depends of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could find a used MacBook in almost new condition, lots of people use them as desktops and they never go anywhere and never get beat up.
Looks like new Minis start at $599, although you might find new old stock of the previous generation Mini for less. Of course you still need to add a display, mouse and keyboard. Personally, I think you'd be better off getting a computer newbie relative a Mac, since you will end up being their tech support, and will be responsible for cleaning up all their PC viruses and malware. Macs don't have those problems, it would be worth the extra cost just for YOUR peace of mind. Another thing to note: you can remotely administer Macs with freeware apps like VNC, even from a PC, so you don't have to run over to fix things all the time.

[Adhesive]

Well, it depends of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if you could find a used MacBook in almost new condition, lots of people use them as desktops and they never go anywhere and never get beat up.
Looks like new Minis start at $599, although you might find new old stock of the previous generation Mini for less. Of course you still need to add a display, mouse and keyboard. Personally, I think you'd be better off getting a computer newbie relative a Mac, since you will end up being their tech support, and will be responsible for cleaning up all their PC viruses and malware. Macs don't have those problems, it would be worth the extra cost just for YOUR peace of mind. Another thing to note: you can remotely administer Macs with freeware apps like VNC, even from a PC, so you don't have to run over to fix things all the time.

I hear you on the virus clean-up. My parents already have me on-call 24/7, I'd hate to imagine the mess my father-in-law would get himself into with a PC.

However, as much as I would like to eventually switch over to the Mac OS, I just don't feel comfortable having my first venture into Macworld be with my father-in-law's computer. A PC may be problem-prone, but I have never ran into one that I couldn't fix myself. My wife's Japanese friend came to visit recently with a powerbook and when it failed to power on I was clueless as to what the problem could be. I had to call friends who eventually told me that the powerbooks had a problem with the wires within the hinge of the unit getting pinched. I'm not sure I want to invest that much time into learning the Mac in order to adequately support the FIL. Although, I admit it's tempting.

[FG Lurker]

will be responsible for cleaning up all their PC viruses and malware. Macs don't have those problems, it would be worth the extra cost just for YOUR peace of mind.

Properly setup PCs don't have these problems either. Use Firefox & Thunderbird. Leave Windows Update in full auto mode. Install AVG (free AV software). Make sure the Windows Firewall is turned on. These very simple steps take less than 20 minutes to do and eliminate 99% or more of all malware problems. If the user is really determined to fark up their machine then remove the admin privs from their account. (Based on the shockingly long waits at the "Genius Bar" I would say that there is no shortage of user-farked Macs either.)

Another thing to note: you can remotely administer Macs with freeware apps like VNC, even from a PC, so you don't have to run over to fix things all the time.

Have you actually tried to control a Mac from a PC over VNC? I have. Even over 100Mb LAN connections it SUCKS beyond belief. It sucks even more than you do Chuck, and that is really saying something.


I'll admit to some bias here. I was becoming increasingly unhappy with Microsoft and Windows. So last year I spent over 300,000yen and bought a MacBook Pro. It is a very nice machine and OSX has very nice eye candy. However for anyone who is in the real world and has to work with PCs as well, trying to live on a Mac is a nightmare. There are SO many problems. I also found the "Genius Bar" to be very busy and not especially helpful -- I was very disappointed with the quality of Apple's support.

Had things gone well with my Mac experiment I would have bought 3 or 4 more and given them to family members. It most certainly did not go well though so I have gone back to Windows. I love my ThinkPad T60, it WORKS and I never have cross-platform troubles, farked up network shares, or mismatched keyboards. Although I still don't like the way MS goes about things sometimes, I certainly appreciate Windows a lot more. Maybe it isn't the most attractive OS, probably some things could be done better. It isn't running on a cool Unix-based system. But it WORKS. I don't have to think about it, I can just use it to get things done. I'm not sure about other people, but for me that trumps all.

[FG Lurker]

Can I get a decent Mac for under $400?

No.

[Charles]

I hear you on the virus clean-up. My parents already have me on-call 24/7, I'd hate to imagine the mess my father-in-law would get himself into with a PC.

However, as much as I would like to eventually switch over to the Mac OS, I just don't feel comfortable having my first venture into Macworld be with my father-in-law's computer. A PC may be problem-prone, but I have never ran into one that I couldn't fix myself. My wife's Japanese friend came to visit recently with a powerbook and when it failed to power on I was clueless as to what the problem could be. I had to call friends who eventually told me that the powerbooks had a problem with the wires within the hinge of the unit getting pinched. I'm not sure I want to invest that much time into learning the Mac in order to adequately support the FIL. Although, I admit it's tempting.

Well obviously you can't repair the hardware remotely, but I've had great results doing remote maintenance of Macs over the net. I even configured a friend's Mini when I was in the US and he was in Tokyo, all I have is a 1256/860 DSL line. I have a couple of clients that I occasionally train remotely, we get on the phone and I connect remotely and describe what I'm doing while I drive their mouse.
But anyway, the problem is obviously PC vs Mac, sure you know how to fix anything that comes along, but I still think you'd be better off if none of those problems actually came along. And remember there are plenty of FGs here who love macs and would be glad to help you out. I think that Mac hardware is better built than your average cheapo PC and even a used Mac is a great piece of equipment.

[IkemenTommy]

[IkemenTommy]

Mac is way overrated. I am assuming that your father-in-law has almost no computer knowledge or not going to be doing any hardcore 3D/animation/music/video/photo editing with this. I would just stick with something more practical like Windows.

[Greji]

Mac is way overrated. I am assuming that your father-in-law has almost no computer knowledge or not going to be doing any hardcore 3D/animation/music/video/photo editing with this. I would just stick with something more practical like Windows.

Tommy! You kid me not! I can bring my Macbook pro or Macbook to your place, setting it on automatic, plug into the wall and your cable hook up and go. What could be simpler?

Can you do that with a windows machine? Don't do the old soft shoe on me now, you would not have to make any sette or adjustments on a windows machine coming to your place to plug in for the first time?

This from me who has family that are major players for Microsoft! I'm just saying what I think Mac is easier for a beginner!

[IkemenTommy]

Tommy! You kid me not! I can bring my Macbook pro or Macbook to your place, setting it on automatic, plug into the wall and your cable hook up and go. What could be simpler?

Can you do that with a windows machine? Don't do the old soft shoe on me now, you would not have to make any sette or adjustments on a windows machine coming to your place to plug in for the first time?

This from me who has family that are major players for Microsoft! I'm just saying what I think Mac is easier for a beginner!

Sorry, my "place" has 128 bit encryption to log in which requires some password configuration so your Mac is no better than my PC.

Apple Corp is no longer a company that makes computers. They are mostly about music and phones. Wait, the phone is also a music player spin-off. When will people start realizing that?

[Charles]

Apple Corp is no longer a company that makes computers. They are mostly about music and phones. Wait, the phone is also a music player spin-off. When will people start realizing that?

Apple is a software company that makes its money by selling it on their own hardware. This goes for iPods as well as iPhones. The iPhone runs MacOS X and the iPods are rumored to also be converting to MacOS X.
If Apple no longer makes computers, they sure do a good job at operating systems. The future is not Vista/MSOffice, it is ubiquitous computing devices in a rich media environment. Microsoft is totally clueless about this, and Vista is already a notorious failure.

[FG Lurker]

Microsoft is totally clueless about this, and Vista is already a notorious failure.

Microsoft may be clueless, and Vista may suck. It still outsells OSX by multiple times though... Apparently Apple is missing the boat somewhere!

[FG Lurker]

I can bring my Macbook pro or Macbook to your place, setting it on automatic, plug into the wall and your cable hook up and go. What could be simpler?

Can you do that with a windows machine? Don't do the old soft shoe on me now, you would not have to make any sette or adjustments on a windows machine coming to your place to plug in for the first time?

There are no differences between Windows and Mac in this area. In both cases, as long as there is a firewall/router on the network that provides addresses by DHCP then you can plug into the network and be working automatically.

Equally true is that in both cases if you are plugging directly into a fibre, DSL or cable "modem" then there will be configuration required. Also as Tommy points out, if you are using wireless with security enabled then you'll have to configure that on both Win and Mac as well.

A bog-standard Mac is more secure than a bog-standard PC running IE and OE. Make the quick changes I mentioned earlier though and the difference is very, very small.

[IkemenTommy]

Apple is a software company that makes its money by selling it on their own hardware. This goes for iPods as well as iPhones. The iPhone runs MacOS X and the iPods are rumored to also be converting to MacOS X.
If Apple no longer makes computers, they sure do a good job at operating systems. The future is not Vista/MSOffice, it is ubiquitous computing devices in a rich media environment. Microsoft is totally clueless about this, and Vista is already a notorious failure.

Charles, what I meant was that Apple does not make the earning through it's computer division. They can let go completely the Macs and still make the numbers with iPod and iPhone. It was really the success of iPod that turned Mac around and got them back on the positive earning side, not Macs.