Guitars

[Russell]

My 13-yo daughter wants to have a guitar, and I wonder if there are any recommendations for beginners. She has plenty of experience playing piano, and usually studies on her own, but guitar is a first.

The missus is thinking about a James JF400, because the shop can provide lessons in an irregular schedule. Daughter doesn't have much time to practice, but she really wants a guitar. Ahh, teenagers...

Anyone around here who is knowledgeable about guitars?

[Coligny]

Might souns assholish... But have you checked second hands shop ?

Between the "i want a pony" syndrome and the price delta between new/used generally only rivalled by import cars devaluation...

[Russell]

Might souns assholish... But have you checked second hands shop ?

Between the "i want a pony" syndrome and the price delta between new/used generally only rivalled by import cars devaluation...

Hmm, that's probably not going to work in this case, because it's a present. (OK, I know, I know, presents can be second-hand, but this one is new within our budget, which is around 40,000 Yen).

Anyway, even if it's second-hand, I still would like to know the reputations of brands and types.

[Yokohammer]

That particular "James" is a Shimamura house brand. It might be sorta OK, or not. What bothers me a bit about it is that there is a James Guitars in Nashville that does repairs and restoration, and builds custom guitars with a "James" logo that looks very much like the Shimamura version. Or perhaps I should say that the Shimamura version looks very much like the Nashville version. Could be coincidence, or not.

If you're looking for something in that price range and aren't able to play and evaluate the instrument yourself, I'd recommend a Yamaha for consistently high cost/performance. It won't be a great guitar, but you can be pretty sure that it'll be a decent guitar. It'd be great if you could find a good Yairi or Takamine at that price, but I don't think you will (forget Martin or Gibson). The thing about Yamaha is that even the cheapos are "properly" made, and they're usually set up well at the factory, which is not always the case with other brands.

Musical instruments ... very subjective, but that's my 2 yen.

[Russell]

That particular "James" is a Shimamura house brand. It might be sorta OK, or not. What bothers me a bit about it is that there is a James Guitars in Nashville that does repairs and restoration, and builds custom guitars with a "James" logo that looks very much like the Shimamura version. Or perhaps I should say that the Shimamura version looks very much like the Nashville version. Could be coincidence, or not.

If you're looking for something in that price range and aren't able to play and evaluate the instrument yourself, I'd recommend a Yamaha for consistently high cost/performance. It won't be a great guitar, but you can be pretty sure that it'll be a decent guitar. It'd be great if you could find a good Yairi or Takamine at that price, but I don't think you will (forget Martin or Gibson). The thing about Yamaha is that even the cheapos are "properly" made, and they're usually set up well at the factory, which is not always the case with other brands.

Musical instruments ... very subjective, but that's my 2 yen.

Thanks a lot!

Yep, very subjective. Daughter didn't like the sound of the Yamaha.

The Takamine is consistently above the budget, even second-hand, but the Yairu has a wide range of prices. I guess something under 20,000 Yen is probably not recommended?

[Grumpy Gramps]

Would totally agree with Hammer. For 4man you can get a pretty good instrument, though if it is run-off-the-mill "made in China", you might have a bit of quality fluctuation.

Yamahas, though, have a reputation of a steady quality. For instance, here is a deal within your budget that includes every bit if kit that your daughter might dream of. The guitar is a little smaller than the usual bulky "dreadnought" style guitars and might, therefore, be easier to handle by (not only) a child. But sounds a little different than the bigger guitars. And the Yamaha FS720S is one that I considered buying for myself (to take out on trips etc).

Also "tested and found worthy by Grumpy" (which doesn't mean much, thoguh) would be the Cort Earth series. Some might need a little set-up work with a file, but I think, they are worth more than their sticker-price.

Takamine have sometimes quite good instruments for the money, but they are mostly geared at the stage, so sound good over an amp, but rather average acousticly.

Best in my opinion, though, would be a gift card. Guitars are quite personal things, the way the neck fits your hand and the vibrations tickle your belly, can be individual, so a run-off-the-mill MIC box could just be, what your daughter wants.

And agree with "used" but only if you know, what to look for. I have seen expensive wrecks at Hard-off's and I have seen beauties for peanuts in the junk-corner of Komehyo.

Edit: Just seen your last post, Russell. Below 2 man I would look at a Cort Earth 70.

[legion]

First thing I bought with my first paycheck in Japan was a Yamaha guitar, still have it, and I'm still shit on it.

What style of music does she want to play. That should guide your choice.

I want a parlor guitar

But I got kids instead, because I am thick as a brick

[Russell]

First thing I bought with my first paycheck in Japan was a Yamaha guitar, still have it, and I'm still shit on it.

What style of music does she want to play. That should guide your choice.

She plays Beatles songs a lot on the piano, so I guess it will be in that genre.

What guitars are most suitable for that? Is it correct to assume that it's is the sound that makes one guitar preferable over another for a certain type of music?

[Wage Slave]

Another failed learner here. I think I was probably doomed anyway but I also think trying to learn on a steel string acoustic was a mistake. The quality of the guitar is more critical, you need stronger, longer fingers and the strings constantly need changing to stay bright.

Meanwhile most of the music I was listening to was being played on electric or semi-acoustic as are 99% Beatles songs. However, there is still nothing quite like the sound of steel string acoustic.

[Grumpy Gramps]

I think, Beatles songs work very well on acoustics. Electrics are usually easier to play, but you'll have the additional hassle of an amp, cables, pedals, can't take them to friends or camp fires as easily...

On an acoustic, the fingers will hurt for a month or so longer than on an electric or classical, until proper calluses have formed on the finger tips. Not sure, whether the concentration span of a teenager lasts that long

[legion]

I hate the fucking Beatles

Any guitar can sound good

[Russell]

Just visited the Shimamura guitar shop myself with daughter, and asked them to play on some James and Yamaha guitars.

My opinion is as follows with regard to sound quality:

James JF400: sounds like a toy guitar. I didn't like it. This was the initial choice of my daughter.

James JD400: much better with a deeper and warmer sound.

Yamaha FG730S: best in my opinion, with a well-defined sound.

Daughter didn't like holding the Yamaha as much as the James guitars, because the grip for the left hand of the Yamaha is bigger. The salesman on duty didn't push for a specific choice, but he said clearly that his preference was the Yamaha, both in sound quality as w.r.t. playing.

However, he also said that the Yamaha strings are a bit harder on the fingers, so for beginners that may be a reason why they could give up after a short while. Most important is that someone is encouraged to continue practicing, so how it feels to hold the instrument and even its color may be factors to take into consideration.

Looks like it's gonna be the James JD400. I gave my daughter a few days to think it over, but it looks like she already made up her mind.

Now for the lessons: have to find a good teacher.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Congrats on the James

I would agree that how the neck fits your hand and how comfortably it sits on your lap is more important in the beginning. She will sound like a beginner on any guitar in the beginning

You might want to make sure that your new guitar is set up correctly once you have it. The one you get from the warehouse might feel quite different from the one you tried in the store. And you could change the strings for a smaller gauge (0.11 or so) to make it a little easier an hier fngers for the first few months.

[Russell]

Congrats on the James

I would agree that how the neck fits your hand and how comfortably it sits on your lap is more important in the beginning. She will sound like a beginner on any guitar in the beginning

You might want to make sure that your new guitar is set up correctly once you have it. The one you get from the warehouse might feel quite different from the one you tried in the store. And you could change the strings for a smaller gauge (0.11 or so) to make it a little easier an hier fngers for the first few months.

Thanks for the advice.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is involved in setting up a guitar correctly?

[Coligny]

Checking the headlight fluid is at proper level...

[Grumpy Gramps]

but what is involved in setting up a guitar correctly?

The main thing, I'd say is to get the geometry of the fretboard and strings right (or have it set by someone, who knows what they are doing).

1. Neck relief: Fret a string on the first and 12th fret simultaneously, then eyeball how much air is between the 6th fret and the string (fret, not fretboard). There should be a little, maybe half a mm to a mm. The string must not touch the fret. Adjustable at the truss rod, which you can access either at the top of the neck underneath a small cover plate or at the bottom of the neck from inside the sound hole, depending on the guitar. Allen key. Be careful not to overdo it, work quarter turn by quarter turn.
2. Nut height: Fret each string at the third fret and check how much air you have between the first fret and the string. You should just about see light, a piece of paper should barely fit, I adjust mine to about 0.15mm. Many guitars come with a nut that is set a little high which makes it overly difficult to play the first few frets (the dreaded F-bar chord). And that's where your daughter learns to play. To fix that, you'd best sand it down. It is a little tricky; you would have to work very precise and keep all angles right or you might screw up the intonation of the instrument. Good nut files cost a fortune, unfortunately, but you can get around that, if you are determined
3. Action: Action is the distance between the 12th fret and the string. There is no real right or wrong there unless you get fret-buzz, depends on how you play. A bluegrasser, who needs to fight strumming against loud banjos and fiddles needs a much higher action (~4mm maybe) than a quiet fingerpicker (~2mm maybe). To set the action, you either file down or shim up the saddle (the whiteish thing that sits inside the bridge at the southern end of the strings). This is the least important for a beginner, who only plays on the first few frets for a while.

I don't know how this is done here in Japan, as I set up my guitars myself. But if you don't want to wield files at you brand new guitar, I would guess that Shinamura might have a work shop which can do a nice set up for you. Possibly worth the money.

[Russell]

Grumpy, thanks for that post.

It started a new phase of reevaluation for me, and I got encouraged to read more about guitars on the web.

Short story, we investigated which shops would be able to provide lessons in a schedule that fits my daughter's, and we asked for a trial lesson. Shimamura could not provide that, so we headed for another store. The trial lesson made my daughter even more enthusiastic, and it also opened her mind for other guitar brands. She still doesn't want a Yamaha, but one brand she did like (in terms of sound and holding the instrument) was a Fender, in particular the CF-60. Fender was not available at Shimamura, but this new store had other brands not found there, like Morris, Epiphone, etc.

The CF-60 is pretty well received, if I believe the Internets. Fender used to be a lesser brand for a while due to them focusing too much on electric guitars, as far as I understand. It appears that their quality issues are a thing of the past, and I must admit that I like the sound of it. So, now we are converging on the CF-60.

[Coligny]

Renault did a collaboration with Gibson few years ago...
Basically writing 'gibson' on the cars and 'Gordini' on the guitars...

image.jpg

/just in case you're still wondering why I want to murder C4rlos G0shn...

[Grumpy Gramps]

Yes, Fender and acoustics in the same sentence does not sound well in my ears But I have also heard that the quality might have improved a little over the last year or so. Fender still seems to produce their acoustics anywhere in China, today here, tomorrow somewhere else. So if you find a good one, hold on to exactly that piece of wood, as quality may heavily fluctuate.

Most acoustic guitarists, though, and I am one of them, think that guitars with solid tops generally sound "better" than those with laminated tops. "Generally" means, there can be exceptions, mainly in the lowest price brackets. The laminated tops can sometimes be louder, so be sure you don't confuse loudness with sound quality

But "good" and "bad" sound are subjective and your daughter's ears can surely judge that for her first guitar.

[Coligny]

Guitar aircraft carrier...

image.jpg

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index. ... t.1411581/

At least I know I won't feel alone at the asylum...

[Russell]

Guitar aircraft carrier...

image.jpg

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index. ... t.1411581/

At least I know I won't feel alone at the asylum...

Too late.

I just gave the guitar to my daughter this evening.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Hey congrats for the new toy. Looking forward to your daughter's YouTube channel

[Russell]

Hey congrats for the new toy. Looking forward to your daughter's YouTube channel

Thanks!

It will take some time before she can post her own Youtubes, but she is very happy to start lessons.

And thanks everyone for all the advice.

[Coligny]

Guitar aircraft carrier...

image.jpg

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index. ... t.1411581/

At least I know I won't feel alone at the asylum...

Too late.

I just gave the guitar to my daughter this evening.

If she's into aircraft carriers I suggest you invest in a therapist...

[Grumpy Gramps]

How about dragons? (They also make very nice acoustics from carbon fiber, though).