Japanese "should"

[American Oyaji]

What are all the different ways to say should?

This is the sentence I'm trying to translate to Japanese. (yes, I'm a hack at the moment, but I'm willing to learn)

"After you press ENTER, you should see a list of databases."

I thought "beki" would enter it, but I'm not sure.

Any help would be welcome.

[American Oyaji]

Ok, from Jim Breen's page, I understand there are two different "should"
in Japanese.

One is an expectation of something happening. "hazu"
The other is a responsible action a person is expected to take "beki"

If I'm wrong, let me know.

[Charles]

"After you press ENTER, you should see a list of databases."

That sentence doesn't really take "should" like you think. Certainly not in the sense of "hazu" or "beki."

Try it again, but use the English prototype, "When you press enter, a list of databases appears." It would be sufficient to use the -te form conjunctive. Using the -te form to join two clauses can imply:
1. One event follows the other
2. One event causes the other
3. both.

[American Oyaji]

OK, maybe I should have given a little context here.

This is a help document for a person trying to connect to lotus notes database though a VPN. If they were at the company, then there is no problem and the -te conjunctive would be appropriate.

In this case, it's not a sure thing that the database will appear, so there is an emphasis in English on the SHOULD as in "it SHOULD appear."

That is how I am trying to convey it in Japanese.

[GomiGirl]

You should not be doing translations for a help document as a non-native speaker of Japanese... get a professional translator to do it or at worst a native speaker.

We have all seen unusable help docs in English for Japanese goods and know how frustrating they are as they do not convey anything useful when you are troubleshooting.

There is nothing worse than help documents written in pidgen English so the same applies for Japanese... Don't try to do it yourself.

[cstaylor]

It's his job, and he's trying to get free labor out of us. Ask for a cut, or maybe AO should take it to Answers.com.

[Charles]

In this case, it's not a sure thing that the database will appear, so there is an emphasis in English on the SHOULD as in "it SHOULD appear."

If you fix the database so it always appears, then you won't have this linguistic problem.

[kamome]

Maybe using "deshou" at the end of the sentence will convey your point. Weather forecasters use "deshou" when predicting rain, as in "ame ga furu deshou", because they are dealing in probabilities. But if you are pretty sure what the result will be, then I guess "hazu" would work.

Can I have my 10% cut now?

[American Oyaji]

You should not be doing translations for a help document as a non-native speaker of Japanese... get a professional translator to do it or at worst a native speaker.

We have all seen unusable help docs in English for Japanese goods and know how frustrating they are as they do not convey anything useful when you are troubleshooting.

There is nothing worse than help documents written in pidgen English so the same applies for Japanese... Don't try to do it yourself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Gomi...
BTW, I WILL be getting a native Japanese person to proofread it before it gets published. I made that clear to my boss when I started this.

A guy's gotta start SOMEWHERE. I'll be working as a translator and interpreter at some point. They're idea, not mine.

I completed both pages after a few hours. It's understandable.

BTW, I did a better job than the guy who translated the previous version of that help document. And on top of that, he published his without having a native J-person proofread it.

As for that 10% Kamome...
Do you accept payment in Kirin, Asahi or Sapporo?

[GomiGirl]

AO,

This is nothing against you or your language abilities but just standard translating practice. I have lots of friends who work in the industry and they will not touch anything that is not INTO their native language.

At my work I would never use an English person to translate into Japanese and vice versa. The quality of the output directly affects the reputation of you and your company.

[kurohinge1]

... BTW, I WILL be getting a native Japanese person to proofread it before it gets published. . . . I'll be working as a translator and interpreter at some point. They're idea, not mine . . .

You'd better get a native English person to proofread it too.

Sorry, AO, couldn't resist (and it's a mistake I make sometimes too).

[kamome]

As for that 10% Kamome...
Do you accept payment in Kirin, Asahi or Sapporo?

Unless you can squeeze several Asahi bottles through your computer and have them translated into paypal credits......no.

[amdg]

AO,

This is nothing against you or your language abilities but just standard translating practice. I have lots of friends who work in the industry and they will not touch anything that is not INTO their native language.

At my work I would never use an English person to translate into Japanese and vice versa. The quality of the output directly affects the reputation of you and your company.

Seconded. It is standard practice to only translate into your own native language. Remember every time you’ve read Engrish instructions written by someone who maybe spent a year or two overseas? You wanted to track them down and kill them didn’t you? Gomi is right when she says that it reflects badly on your company too – there have been times when I vowed never to buy another product from company X because of their bad translations.

[Kush]

One thing to keep in mind--if you are trying to make a start as a translator, the worst possible way to do it is to work into your B language. Clients hire you based on the quality of your work (well, what they've seen of it), and if you're working into your second language, it's a given that your output will be of a lower quality than when working into your A language.

Besides, if you end up working into your B you will have to start paying someone to do the editing work for you at some point--and that can take a serious bite out of your income. Not to mention that J-E tends to pay better than E-J on average.

Of course, if you're in-house and just doing what you're told, then most of the above is neither here nor there.

-Kush

[American Oyaji]

Yeah, this is an in-house document.

And BTW, the Japanese guy that proofread it only made minor changes.

[Mennon]

Jesus, someone give him the transaltion, for god's sake.

[jingai]

Try posting questions like these on Japannewbie.com. They're more interested in helping and a few have tech/IT backgrounds.

[kamome]

Jesus, someone give him the transaltion, for god's sake.

Maybe using "deshou" at the end of the sentence will convey your point. Weather forecasters use "deshou" when predicting rain, as in "ame ga furu deshou", because they are dealing in probabilities. But if you are pretty sure what the result will be, then I guess "hazu" would work.

Can I have my 10% cut now?

How's that for the "transaltion"?

[American Oyaji]

BTW,
Hazu was proper according to the company translator AND the Japanese guy who proofread it.

[amdg]

Well, if you have a company translator and a native Japanese proofreader, why the fuck are you asking us?

For my two cents I have to say that Charles' solution was better that the ‘hazu’ option. You can’t translate English into Japanese by translating the individual words, as everyone knows, you have to look for the meaning in each sentence and then work from there.

That sentence doesn't really take "should" like you think. Certainly not in the sense of "hazu" or "beki."

Try it again, but use the English prototype, "When you press enter, a list of databases appears." It would be sufficient to use the -te form conjunctive. Using the -te form to join two clauses can imply:
1. One event follows the other
2. One event causes the other
3. both.

"When you press enter, a list of databases appears."

Your next sentence should be “If a list of databases does not appear...”

[omae mona]

Trying to do a literal translation from English may not be a great idea for a specialized document like user instructions for software (AO, that's what this is, right?). No doubt, AO, that what you came up with is gramatically correct and that Japanese readers will understand what you're saying. But that doesn't mean it won't sound strange. See http://www.engrish.com for lots of other examples of this going from Japanese to English. My concern is that your colleagues might have said it was good because it wasn't blatantly wrong, and wasn't too embarrassing.

If you're writing instructions in Japanese for the first time, instead of winging it you might try to copy from other instructions. Stop reinventing the wheel. FYI, something I've seen in a manual recently is ...画面になります。In your case I suppose you could say ...リストになります。Note that there is no sense of "should" hinting that it might not behave as expected. We've done proper QA on our systems after all, right?