Japanese Profiency Test Pissing Contest

[Socratesabroad]

Having one correct answer and three incorrect answers is the only way of setting multiple choice. If you have two correct answers but one is somehow inexplicably more correct* than the other, it invalidates that question and thereby the whole exam (in my opinion).

Well, I won't argue the merits of chucking an entire exam because one question is farked, but the clanger question issue is also a problem with the HSK, or Chinese version of the JLPT.

Having two correct answers out of four with one 'more correct' than the other is bollocks; to paraphrase Orwell, "all answers are potentially correct, but some answers are more correct than others."

In the end, on the advice of my tutor I had to go with three categories:
1) obviously wrong answers
2) answers that are logically or rationally defensible
3) answers that are correct 'for test purposes only'

[Cubed]

[Charles]

In the end, on the advice of my tutor I had to go with three categories:
1) obviously wrong answers
2) answers that are logically or rationally defensible
3) answers that are correct 'for test purposes only'

There is an excellent Japanese short story on this subject entitled "Entrance Exams for Earnest Young Students." It's been years since I read it but it describes how answers to exam questions are categorized, something like this:

1. Obviously correct answers. These are always wrong.
2. Correct answers to some other question.
3. Correct answers that expand the scope of the question beyond what is necessary for an answer.
4. Answers that limit the scope of correctness to one single person's experiences.

Whatever does not fall into one of these categories is the right answer, even if it is factually incorrect. And if you can't tell which category each possible answer falls into, always pick Answer B.

[Cubed]

1. Obviously correct answers. These are always wrong.
2. Correct answers to some other question.
3. Correct answers that expand the scope of the question beyond what is necessary for an answer.
4. Answers that limit the scope of correctness to one single person's experiences.

Whatever does not fall into one of these categories is the right answer, even if it is factually incorrect. And if you can't tell which category each possible answer falls into, always pick Answer B.

That too is a f*ckin revelation. Amen.

[kamome]

[FG Lurker]

[Greji]

"....yaru is just wrong for another human being...."

I would agree with a lot of Lurk's analysis with one exception, Kansai. I go there on business, sometimes as much as several times a month and even after all these years, their language never fails to amaze me. Some of the Osaka Ben'ders can't even say "Good Morning" without getting some form of "Yaro" involved in the grammar(?) pattern!

:P

[FG Lurker]

[kamome]

[FG Lurker]

[kamome]

I'm not really worried about the test question... I don't think the tests have any real value. Didn't mean to hijack the thread though.

On that issue, I've actually never heard of watasu being used for "giving a tip". I have only heard harau and maybe ageru. I think ageru sounds fine for tips, since "ageru" is grammatically neutral and connotes a gratuity instead of an obligation. But if watasu is really correct, as gboothe's colleagues say, then I've learned something here.

[Greji]

[Socratesabroad]

[FG Lurker]

[Socratesabroad]

This is really really grasping at straws...!

Well, yes and no. The crux of the matter is how the question is worded.

If the question is worded 'choose the correct answer' then all other answers needs must be incorrect, so I'd definitely take issue with such questions if more than one answer were potentially correct.

If the question, however, is worded 'choose the most appropriate answer' then Kamome is exactly right and I'd end up siding with the most prevalent answer.

[kamome]

Socrates,

Yes, it is optional to use the kanji form of the verb "ageru" (and "tempura" for that matter) in written Japanese. But that is beside the point. They refrained from using the kanji form of the verb not simply because it is grammatically permissible to do so, but because the testers wanted to force the test taker to deduce the correct answer from the fact that there is more than one meaning of ageru. Notwithstanding Cubed's glib take on the question, if you consider all the factors I alluded to above--ageru/ageru being one of them--I think there is only one correct answer here.

Perhaps a pure language test wouldn't have left the ageru/ageru issue so vague and just used a straight-forward comprehension approach. That's what I would want out of a language proficiency exam (as well as a reality-based approach). Of course, the fact that the question tests one's critical thinking skills and knowledge of Japanese culture is admirable for its sophistication.

[jingai]

Of course, the fact that the question tests one's critical thinking skills and knowledge of Japanese culture is admirable for its sophistication.

But didn't we learn that the correct answer is actually the obvious one, A? The ageru= fry definition really doesn't make sense (frying side plates?). I think the test is lamentable for its multiple-choice driven simplemindedness and its banal reading passages.

[Cubed]

[Cubed]

[kamome]

I'm arguing that multiple choice has to have one correct answer and three most definitely wrong answers. If this basic criteria isn't met, it's a duff question.

OK, but nothing you said above disproves my point that there is only one correct answer.

On point 1, you said that izakaya aren't archetypal Japanese restaurants. But they ARE Japanese restaurants and they do serve fried food. As I mentioned, the question doesn't use "washoku", so we're not asked for archetypal restaurants, just any Japanese restaurant. That eliminates food items like cheese and french fries from the possible answer choices.

On point 2, you are proving my point. Of course "chippu" isn't translated as potato chip or french fry, but it certainly could be mistranslated as such by a gaijin. That's why it's the third red herring that you initially failed to pick up on.

On point 3, I have no idea what you are saying. Maybe you could clarify?

On point 4, what's wrong with using process of elimination? You have to know about the different meanings of ageru to pass the question. How is that unfair for a grammar exam?

On point 5, your sentence is not grammatically correct, because kozara can't be cooked or fried. I believe kozara just means small plate, not the food on the plate. Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

On point 6, I don't think there is anything wrong with blending in Japanese culture on a language proficiency exam. In your example, if a Chinese person doesn't know the first thing about Japanese culture, how is (s)he going to function in the language? Put the shoe on the other foot: if someone is taking an English exam and couldn't figure out a sentence that says "Tipping is a tradition in the United States/England", wouldn't you consider that to be a serious deficiency in their language skills? I would.

Actually, Cubed (and jingai), I think we're all in agreement that the test as a whole is problematic. We just differ on why the test is problematic. I happen to think that it's not how the questions are constructed, but that it tests too wide a range of subject matter that isn't relevant for my purposes and that level 1 tests esoterica that is worthless to learn.

[jingai]

Actually, Cubed (and jingai), I think we're all in agreement that the test as a whole is problematic. We just differ on why the test is problematic. I happen to think that it's not how the questions are constructed, but that it tests too wide a range of subject matter that isn't relevant for my purposes and that level 1 tests esoterica that is worthless to learn.

Actually, I agree with you on this. For what it is, the JLPT's construction works as well as the SAT/AP tests do in the US. However, I think the content is equally useless.

I am bitter, as after 3 months of studying to pass the JLPT in Japan I had forgotten why I liked Japanese and Japan in the first place. Reading poorly-written passages recycled from some 15 year old newspaper grew depressing as the writing HAD NOTHING TO SAY. I ended up just skipping classes, buying a Japanese novel and studying on the streets of Japan.

I studied in Japan with Chinese students and it was funny to see the ones who got as far as they did on their written skills, barely being able to speak or survive in Japan. The JLPT encourages that sort of thing, though I think it would be fairer to test on grammar *or* culture than to do both at the same time as Kamone brought up.

chippu can also be computer chip, by the way. I like mine overclocked and fried

[kamome]

The JLPT encourages that sort of thing, though I think it would be fairer to test on grammar *or* culture than to do both at the same time as Kamone brought up.

Culture and language in Japan are so intertwined, you probably can't avoid testing it to some extent on the JLPT. For example, the politeness levels in the language are determined by culture. If those Chinese students don't have a clue about Japanese culture they won't know when it's proper to use keigo. And keigo forms are definitely fair territory for a language proficiency test.

[jingai]

Agreed, true language proficiency requires a knowledge of the culture and that's fair game for the JLPT. Having a culture quiz section or turning grammatical questions into cultural trick questions is entirely different.

[Cubed]

In English:

In Japanese restaurants, there's no custom of frying __________ .

1. Tips
2. Chips
3. Cheese
4. Sideplates

Kamome, the fact that you can't fry sideplates (that would be ridiculous), validates this question - we're saying that there is no such custom.

This is the issue with the question. It's badly chosen and badly executed. Yet it was a JLPT question on which people were marked.

The JLRT (The JETRO test) is much more relevant, as they are all real-life situations. The complexity comes not from the questions (which are wisely kept very simple) but extracting the relevant information. Depending on why you're studying Japanese, I'd go for this test every time over the JLPT.

Much better than having to wheel out a set conversation between a grandfather and grandson just to test some of the more outdated Japanese as often happens in the JLPT.

I don't think that the JLPT is a bad exam. It definitely has it's weaknesses which are reflected in the fact that it's no longer a standard test for Japanese universities, and the JETRO test has made the JLPT all but redundant in the business context.

I think the JLPT needs to look closely at what it is examining and why.

[drpepper]

The main reason the JLPT (level 1 namely) exists is for college entrance for foreigners (i.e. Chinese and some Koreans) so studying usless information is par for course as far as students go.

I never studied for the test, other than browsing through some kanji books now and again. I didn't take it to get into a college I just did it for the hell of it. My friend wanted it for his resume so we did it together. It didn't put me off why I was learning Japanese since I didn't study specifically for the test. If your Japanese is good then you should not need to study (for the test specifically). It was good for me in that I paid more attention to things around me and asked more questions about Japanese in the few months leading up to the test. I should probably take it again so I will have some motivation to improve my language skills. I knew this guy many years ago, that is what he did, he took it every year just to try to get a higher score than the previous year, I think the last time he took it he got 88%.

What did piss me off though was all the cheating by the Chinese people around me.

[FG Lurker]

[amdg]

[Cubed]

The context in this case does not do that.

The central question is and has always been - why was it written in hiragana?

What could the examiner's intention have been in not writing and clarifying the kanji for ageru?

I understand that you claim to know the answer, but I would assert that you can't know that unless you know the examiner personally and you asked them (in which case that's cheating!).

Okay, one last time:

Reasoning why it was written in hiragana can validly lead you to conclude that a different meaning was being used than the expected ageru. Devoid of context, you could validly reckon that this sentence was part of a conversation about cooking, for example that it is customary to fry chicken in Japanese restaurants - like karaage. And then the cook could turn to the questioner and say:

"In Japanese restaurants, there's no custom of frying __________ ."

And the question is posed in this context. A perfectly valid reason for choosing cheese or fries (okay sideplates is pushing it - but still fits!).

[Cubed]

[FG Lurker]