Katakana Why???

[gmb]

[kurohinge1]

... Am I the only FG that thinks this way?

See: China's People's Daily praises katakana?

[jingai]

Apparently you aren't familiar with domestic US car names. What the f*** is a Fairlane? Chevro-let-me out. Lesaber? What's a Camaro?
Half of these names are ridiculous looking fake-French or fake-Italian names. Try not to take English too seriously, or you'll forget that it's a bastard language full of misused loan words.

[Charles]

You remind me of what my Japanese instructor said when I asked a similar question,

"That's just the way it is. Do not argue with the language. You always lose."

[nullpointer]

Am I the only FG that thinks this way?

No you are not

[FG Lurker]

As you probably know Japanese has two phonetic alphabets, Hiragana and Katakana.

Hiragana is used for a few common things:

1) Teaching kids to read.
2) To represent "particles" in Japanese text.
3) Endings to verbs to show tense etc.
4) For writing some names -- more common with women than men.
5) In signs etc that kids need to be able to read. "Danger" for example.
6) Probably more I have skipped...

Especially because of reasons 2&3 it would be hard to use Hiragana in written Japanese to phonetically write foreign words. You can't use roman letters because they do not write well vertically and it is very hard to read roman letters mixed in with Japanese text.

Katakana fills this gap nicely. It isn't used for grammar purposes so it is more easily read in a passage of text.

Yes, changing words to Katakana mulches the pronunciation. But changing Japanese words to Roman text does the same thing... Some examples:

Karaoke
Karate
Sayonara
Tsunami
Toyota
Nissan
Mazda
Nikon
Matsushita

Just a few... Yes, many are brand names, but the way they are pronounced in English does not match the Japanese. Karaoke is the best/worst example by far.

As for English borrowing words... Besides Karaoke and Tsunami from Japanese, English has *huge* numbers of borrowed words from almost every European language.

At least Japanese is a very pattern-based language with few exceptions to things like verb conjugation. Until you get to the point of having to learn polite Japanese I would say it is an easier language to master than English. But even with polite language (keigo) there are still rules to follow that make it easy: In this type of situation, you do *this*. It doesn't change. English has no such rules. You have to learn it through experience.

[Addition: Why is this in the Fucked News forum?? Maybe a kind mod could move it to the Ghetto...]

[Taro Toporific]

[FG Lurker]

[Andocrates]

There has always been katakana, why does Spanish use those weird squiggly things over their words? Why does English only have 26 letters, we got ripped off.

Katakana allows the Japanese to use sounds not in hiragana, or to set words off in a sort of parenthesis. And because Japanese is tonal that's important. It's true Japanese writing is overly complex but it's not like a team of Japanese educators got together just to confuse you. that's how the writing system evolved.

Kanji often tells the Japanese a word is Chinese, katakana is for all other foreign loan words.

[kamome]

Don't forget that katakana, in addition to functioning as an alphabet for foreign loan words, also serves the same function in certain contexts as italics do in English (for emphasis, setting a word apart in a sentence, etc.).

[Taro Toporific]

Don't forget that katakana, in addition to functioning as an alphabet for foreign loan words, also serves the same function in certain contexts as italics do in English (for emphasis, setting a word apart in a sentence, etc.).

Yeh, italics: That's state of the art just like punctuation and paragraphing rules. I heard that a while back these people in Greece invented this thing called "spaces" you can between words. Do you think we can keep that a secret from the Japanese too.

[Andocrates]

Yeh, italics: That's state of the art just like punctuation and paragraphing rules. I heard that a while back these people in Greece invented this thing called "spaces" you can between words. Do you think we can keep that a secret from the Japanese too.

Yea I miss spaces, when Japanese is written up to down, right to left you can get by without spaces, but western style left to write muddles it even more.

[james]

[gmb]

OK so most of you disagree with me. That OK but what about when I am told on some or most Japanese documents that I have to use Katakana for my name. My name is my name not some Fu*ked up way of miss spelled or miss pronunciation. I am not a Fu*ken Pole and its meaning in Katakana.

[FG Lurker]

[FG Lurker]

OK so most of you disagree with me. That OK but what about when I am told on some or most Japanese documents that I have to use Katakana for my name. My name is my name not some Fu*ked up way of miss spelled or miss pronunciation. I am not a Fu*ken Pole and its meaning in Katakana.

Why all the anger about this? Japanese names get F'd up in English just as much or worse.

How far would a Japanese person get in *your* country if they insisted on using Kanji to write their names on official documents? Not very far I'd say...

[Andocrates]

OK so most of you disagree with me. That OK but what about when I am told on some or most Japanese documents that I have to use Katakana for my name. My name is my name not some Fu*ked up way of miss spelled or miss pronunciation. I am not a Fu*ken Pole and its meaning in Katakana.

Why all the anger about this? Japanese names get F'd up in English just as much or worse.

How far would a Japanese person get in *your* country if they insisted on using Kanji to write their names on official documents? Not very far I'd say...

Ouch! And once again reality smacks you in the ass. I really tired of the bitchin, ya know just stay in America. WTF, it's a different country.

[Mulboyne]

Another katakana thread started by Taro:
FG Thread: Katakana NG. FG Foramu OK!

[james]

Both are acceptable... As long as they chose one and stuck to it I don't think it's a problem.

normally, i'd tend to agree and sure, as long as they're consistent, it's just a matter of subtracting one from the stroke count when looking up characters this way.

my only problem with it is that other references and just about everyone in japan with a grade 2 education or better knows that it's three. call it nitpicking, but for a book that aims to be authoritive, i think they should get it right. had my students not pointed it out to me and made verify it against other materials, i'd probably still think it's two. not trying to make a mountain out of a mole-hill since it's obviously not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things.

[james]

OK so most of you disagree with me. That OK but what about when I am told on some or most Japanese documents that I have to use Katakana for my name. My name is my name not some Fu*ked up way of miss spelled or miss pronunciation. I am not a Fu*ken Pole and its meaning in Katakana.

as others have pointed out, it's a different country and a different language. some eastern european names get pretty mangled when transliterated into english. more often than not, when i see these names i think "i'd like to buy a vowel, please"..

as for the results when you transliterate names into japanese, you have to remember that japanese as a language has far fewer sounds which are useable in far fewer combinations. there are no closed sounds (consonantal stops), no blends, basically only one fricative that has to make do for both (r/l), even though it's neither and only five distinct vowel sounds, versus a few more than this in english (consider words like "foot" or "the" - the sound is a unique vowel sound even if it doesn't have its own letter using the currently underfunded alphabet of 26)

it's much easier and somewhat more accurate (though by no means perfect) to transliterate japanese into english simply because english has more sounds and far more many ways to blend them.

it's not a personal slight against your name when it gets pureed by the katakana machine.

[cstaylor]

anyone out there know why tobacco is written in hiragana?

Yes. Words evolve over time. For example, ask your average Japanese why is the stapler called a "hotchkiss"? The answer is simple: when the American company, Hotchkiss, exported staplers to Japan, they had "hotchkiss" written on the side of it. So, that's how the Japanese came to call them by that name. Now, over decades of use, the word has entered the Japanese lexicon as a full-fledged Japanese word.

[Charles]

anyone out there know why tobacco is written in hiragana?

Yes. Words evolve over time. For example, ask your average Japanese why is the stapler called a "hotchkiss"? The answer is simple: when the American company, Hotchkiss, exported staplers to Japan, they had "hotchkiss" written on the side of it. So, that's how the Japanese came to call them by that name. Now, over decades of use, the word has entered the Japanese lexicon as a full-fledged Japanese word.

Yabut, Hotchkiss is written in katakana.

The reason tabako is written in hiragana is not so simple. Tobacco was introduced to Japan by Dutch traders, near the end of the 15th century if I recall correctly. There actually is a kanji jukugo for tabako, but it's rather complex, so most everyone used kana.
But back in the 15th century, the roles of katakana and hiragana were reversed. Foreign loan words were written in hiragana, and Japanese words were written in katakana.

[FG Lurker]

Yabut, Hotchkiss is written in katakana.

The reason tabako is written in hiragana is not so simple. Tobacco was introduced to Japan by Dutch traders, near the end of the 15th century if I recall correctly. There actually is a kanji jukugo for tabako, but it's rather complex, so most everyone used kana.
But back in the 15th century, the roles of katakana and hiragana were reversed. Foreign loan words were written in hiragana, and Japanese words were written in katakana.

I have no idea if the hiragana/katakana stuff is true, but I highly doubt tobacco was introduced here "near the end of the 15th century". Tobacco came from the Americas, and the Americas weren't "discovered" by Europe until near the end of the 15th century.

I suppose if it all happened very quickly and tobacco came directly here from Europe it could have happened.

[Andocrates]

anyone out there know why tobacco is written in hiragana?

Yes. Words evolve over time. For example, ask your average Japanese why is the stapler called a "hotchkiss"? The answer is simple: when the American company, Hotchkiss, exported staplers to Japan, they had "hotchkiss" written on the side of it. So, that's how the Japanese came to call them by that name. Now, over decades of use, the word has entered the Japanese lexicon as a full-fledged Japanese word.

Yabut, Hotchkiss is written in katakana.

The reason tabako is written in hiragana is not so simple. Tobacco was introduced to Japan by Dutch traders, near the end of the 15th century if I recall correctly. There actually is a kanji jukugo for tabako, but it's rather complex, so most everyone used kana.
But back in the 15th century, the roles of katakana and hiragana were reversed. Foreign loan words were written in hiragana, and Japanese words were written in katakana.

[cliffy]

This is how I got the nickname I use here

[Mulboyne]

Mainichi: Abe's katakana-laden policy speech rings hollow with listeners

New Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's use of words written in katakana, a form of writing used mainly for scientific terms and words derived from other languages, stood out in his policy speech on Friday, as he apparently aimed to create a new image of himself as a leader. Abe, at 52 the youngest Japanese prime minister in the post-war period, used a total of 109 katakana words in his speech, four times the number used by former Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, who disliked katakana words and bureaucratese...The katakana terms Abe used included words such as "missairu" (missile), and "tero" (terrorism), which are hard to convert into Japanese, as well as with names of foreign countries and other pronouns. Other examples in phrases from Abe's speech included "terewaaku (telework) enabling work to be done from home," "the promotion of an Ajia geetouei (Asian gateway) concept with which Japan can form a bridge with Asia and the world," and a "kantorii aidentitii (country identity) for a new Japan looking to the future"...more...

[Greji]

I suppose if it all happened very quickly and tobacco came directly here from Europe it could have happened.

I think Charles was just generalizing, but it was interesting enough to look up!

".....

1492-10-15: Columbus Mentions Tobacco. "We found a man in a canoe going from Santa Maria to Fernandia. He had with him some dried leaves which are in high value among them, for a quantity of it was brought to me at San Salvador" -- Christopher Columbus' Journal

1492-11: Jerez and Torres Discover Smoking]From about 1600, shredded tobacco was smoked [/B]in long, slender kiseru pipes; after the late nineteenth century renewal of contact with the West, cigarettes came into favour....."

[akatsuka]

[Buraku]

BECAUSE

Katakana helpu-su Nihonjins ta speaku Engrish berry goo-do !!

[omae mona]