Speaking Like A Girl

[CrankyBastard]

Crank,

it aint that simple bro.

"You either are or you are not" eh? Ok then. What about Fujimori? What's he?

Are my kids Japanese? Depends who you ask. Do you see where I'm coming from? To say they are Haafu, and that's the way it is, well, IMO, thats just a cop out.

No, it really is simple.
If Fujimori feels that he is Japanese, then in my opinion he can claim to be so.
I don't know about your kids, but both of mine (Japanese mother/Welsh father) having been raised in Japan have no qualms about claiming to be Japanese.
On the other hand I, although having lived most of my adult life here, don't even in my wildest dreams have delusions of ever being considered as being Japanese.
You either are or you are not. My kids, if they wish to be, are.
I, whether I wish to be or not, can never be.

[ttjereth]

[quote="kusai Jijii"]Amen to that!

But why the fuck is it your / my /someone's problem to make "them" feel comfortable?

Its not my intention to over-interlectualize this shit, but, I can see the frustration in my own kids, and to a certain extent I even recognize it in myself]

Well put.

I've become the same way over my time here. My wife sometimes has trouble understanding why I don't want to "work at making people understand I am different from their stereotypical idea of a gaijin", it's just not worth it. Seriously, their loss, let em believe what they want as long as they leave me alone.

[Iraira]

BTW, surely I'm not the only one who thinks "nihongo jouzu desu ne," doesn't mean that the speaker actually thinks your Japanese is any good. I think they only say it when you make a mistake or are making some sort of effort to speak Japanese even though it's clear to them you aren't very good at it. I came to this conclusion because it was something I heard often (from shopkeepers and the like) during my first year in Japan but once I had a decent command of the language I never heard it again in the subsequent five years I lived there and haven't heard it since.

Actually, I still get it, but it's an altered form, "hontouni jouzu". Only the obaasans or teenagers (20+....I ain't going to jail) still give me the "nihongo jouzu desu ne" crap. I have a retort, which I will not divulge, even under extreme enka torture, as it works wonders on the teenagers (girls).

[kusai Jijii]

No, it really is simple.
If Fujimori feels that he is Japanese, then in my opinion he can claim to be so.
I don't know about your kids, but both of mine (Japanese mother/Welsh father) having been raised in Japan have no qualms about claiming to be Japanese.
On the other hand I, although having lived most of my adult life here, don't even in my wildest dreams have delusions of ever being considered as being Japanese.
You either are or you are not. My kids, if they wish to be, are.
I, whether I wish to be or not, can never be.

Crank,
perhaps I didnt explain myself that well. I agree with all you wrote. But the point is, even if your kids claim to be Japanese, (which indeed they are, as are mine) there is a segment of society that will not fully accept that claim. They will be thought of as 'haafu'. Identity is a two way street. Its about how you position yourself, but it is also, to a degree, about how others position you. Thats the frustrating thing. Thats all I'm saying. Its moronic to think that for people of mixed heritages, ethnicity is a zero sum game, that you have 100% points that you have to somehow split between your identities. You can be Japanese, and you can be Welsh (or Australian or whatever). You dont have to be 'half-japanese and half-welsh'. Thats what I was trying to say.
Oh, and just to be clear, I too have been in Japan for my entire adult life, as well as a good chunk of my adolecence. NEVER EVER IN MY WILDEST DREAMS WOULD I BE SO FUCKING DELUSIONAL TO THINK THAT I COULD, SHOULD, OR WOULD BE CONSIDERED JAPANESE! That one belongs in the "you've been in Japan too long when..."thread.

[American Oyaji]

Man, you got some small feet for such a big guy..

GJ

Oh, haha, you so funny GJ!

[CrankyBastard]

[kusai Jijii]

[quote="CrankyBastard"]I just showed your post to my son and to quote him, "し]

Well, しょうがない indeed. That was the point of my post a few back. That some people will forever be insisting that you 'legitimize' your claim to be Japanese, or in our case, to be in Japan. And whilst it is しょうがない, my personal reaction is that I cant be fucked legitimizing myself. I think my kids are the same way. For example, in the park one day, my daughter was once commented on as to how "natural" her japanese sounded. Her reaction was simply to ask the lady what country she thought we were in, and walked off to play with her friends.

[CrankyBastard]

For example, in the park one day, my daughter was once commented on as to how "natural" her japanese sounded. Her reaction was simply to ask the lady what country she thought we were in, and walked off to play with her friends.

It happens in other societies too, though. I remember bringing a West African fellow student cadet from sea training school back in the 1950's to my grandmother's home. And afterward she remarked how well he behaved at the table. The thing is, at the time I didn't think her reaction was out of place.
Fifty years on I supose I would be appalled.
OK, let's give it another 50 years!:cool:

[kusai Jijii]

A fair point Crank, a fair point.

[succubusqueen]

[American Oyaji]

It happens in other societies too, though. I remember bringing a West African fellow student cadet from sea training school back in the 1950's to my grandmother's home. And afterward she remarked how well he behaved at the table. The thing is, at the time I didn't think her reaction was out of place.
Fifty years on I supose I would be appalled.
OK, let's give it another 50 years!:cool:

Ummm. How old did you say you were? No offense sir.

For example, in the park one day, my daughter was once commented on as to how "natural" her japanese sounded. Her reaction was simply to ask the lady what country she thought we were in, and walked off to play with her friends.

Smart youngster. How old was she when this happened?

[GomiGirl]

I think I have given up on all that shit. I'm no Debito (not that there is anything wrong with him). I just dont want to play 'the game'. If 'they' cant put me in a box, if they cant 'work out' that despite my gaijinness, that I'm 'ok', well then, as far as I am concerned, its not my problem. Fuck 'em.

Well put JiJii

[kamome]

I just dont want to play 'the game'. If 'they' cant put me in a box, if they cant 'work out' that despite my gaijinness, that I'm 'ok', well then, as far as I am concerned, its not my problem. Fuck 'em.

I came to this same conclusion after living for a few years in Japan. You have to just let it go and do your own thing and fuck the rest of them if they can't handle what/who you are. But this is also a good reason not to raise kids in Japan, because they will have to struggle with these identity issues vis a vis their Japanese peers while at the same time come to grips with growing up and all the other anxieties that normal kids go through.

[kusai Jijii]

Smart youngster. How old was she when this happened?


I guess she would have been about seven or eight at the time. And the thing is, I dont think she was trying to be smart, to take the high moral ground over the lady, or set her straight, or anything like that. I guess it was more of a case of my daughter, in her childish innocence, having not yet been conditioned to think about 'race' and ethnic identity in the stupid way that us adults often do. She couldnt understand the lack of logic displayed by the lady in the park and her idiotic attempt to put her in a box in which my daughter felt she did not belong.

Thats my guess anyway.

[CrankyBastard]

Ummm. How old did you say you were? No offense sir.

None taken. I'm 66, not quite over the hill, but I've got a good view of the valley! I'm approaching the stage where I can no longer trust what once felt natural. This mistrust of things applies particularily to farts.

[maraboutslim]

[kusai Jijii]

With respect Mara, I beg to differ.
I dont profess to have all the "correct" answers to these questions, and you of course are more than entitled to your equally legitimate viewpoint. But I simply find your perspective to be too restrictive and limiting. You say that ethnicity is a social construction (which I also believe it is), but then you take a very essentialist approach to how "Japaneseness" is defined.

I may not have understood you correctly, but if you will excuse my wierd analogy, you seem to be suggesting that one's ethnicity or identity is like a pizza. By that, I mean, you can have a "half-and-half pizza", say a half tropical, and half supreme. it will be a half-and-half pizza, it can not be two full pizzas.

I dont view things that way. I say that when you eat a slice from the tropical side of the pizza, it tastes exactly the same as a slice from a whole tropical pizza.

Oh, and if you think I am a complete nutcase for the above analogy, on rereading this, you are probably right.

[halfnip]

[unkosando]

I may not have understood you correctly, but if you will excuse my wierd analogy, you seem to be suggesting that one's ethnicity or identity is like a pizza. By that, I mean, you can have a "half-and-half pizza", say a half tropical, and half supreme. it will be a half-and-half pizza, it can not be two full pizzas.

What if you add Ika, corn and mayonnaise to the pizza. Does this help one become Japanese?:wink:

[halfnip]

With respect Mara, I beg to differ.
I dont profess to have all the "correct" answers to these questions, and you of course are more than entitled to your equally legitimate viewpoint. But I simply find your perspective to be too restrictive and limiting. You say that ethnicity is a social construction (which I also believe it is), but then you take a very essentialist approach to how "Japaneseness" is defined.

I may not have understood you correctly, but if you will excuse my wierd analogy, you seem to be suggesting that one's ethnicity or identity is like a pizza. By that, I mean, you can have a "half-and-half pizza", say a half tropical, and half supreme. it will be a half-and-half pizza, it can not be two full pizzas.

I dont view things that way. I say that when you eat a slice from the tropical side of the pizza, it tastes exactly the same as a slice from a whole tropical pizza.

Oh, and if you think I am a complete nutcase for the above analogy, on rereading this, you are probably right.

I suppose I've just come to accept it. Japanese citizenship or not, etc. When the locals take one look at me, they know I'm not a purebred Japanese product so to speak. So, whenever someone asks me, I immediately say, "I'm half Japanese, half American". End of story... If I were to say one or the other, they'd be completely confused, but once I say I'm half, they seem to get the point. In none of my 15 or so years here have I ever felt out of place or anything. But that's just me...

Hell, when I was about 8 or so before moving to Japan I can honestly say that I had no idea that I was even half or that my mother was any different from anyone else. Then I found out once I got off the plane that all of those years we were eating Japanese food and my mother was teaching me Japanese because this was her home country. It sounds completely ridiculous, but that's how I felt (it didn't help being in Hawaii with all of those nisei's and Japanese around!).

I guess my point here, is that none of this negativity or frustration has ever affected me. I wouldn't have had it any other way and it's a damn good thing to be able to relate to multiple cultures. It truly is a shame when kids are labeled in this way, but I tend to think the adults take it for more than what it was. But if your kids are actually being discriminated against, that's a compeltey different story...

Just my .02 yen.

[kusai Jijii]

none of this negativity or frustration has ever affected me. I wouldn't have had it any other way and it's a damn good thing to be able to relate to multiple cultures. It truly is a shame when kids are labeled in this way, but I tend to think the adults take it for more than what it was. But if your kids are actually being discriminated against, that's a compeltey different story...
.

I completely agree with you. I aint out to change the world. And my kids are, for the most part, very well accepted, and well adjusted to life here. Why wouldnt they be? They were born here and this is their home. One of the things I try to do as a father, is raise them to be comfortable with who they are. They might get that little bit extra attention here and there from time to time (sometimes good and sometimes bad), and that is just a fact of life. I hope they will be thick skinned enough to grow through it.

The only real point I have been trying to make (probably unsuccesfully) on this thread and to my children (probably successfully) is this: Individuals have the right to position themeselves wherever the fuck they want. If they want to say they are japanese, they are. If they want to say they are Australian, they are. If they want to say they are half, thay are. It is their perogative. It doesnt matter what the "conventional wisdom" is - ie. how Japanese society views "haafu" people. Not one fucking bit. The individual can be who/what they want. If some people dont get it, it aint the end of the world, because it aint my (or my kids etc) problem.
game over.

[maraboutslim]

individuals can be who they want, sure. but they can't make themselves a member of a group that does not grant them membership. it just doesn't work that way. if the group "doesn't get it," then too bad, game over, no membership granted. move along to another group or simply decide to be happy as an individual.

[ttjereth]

[ttjereth]

What if you add Ika, corn and mayonnaise to the pizza. Does this help one become Japanese?:wink:

It helps one not get invited to my house on pizza nights

[kusai Jijii]

What if you add Ika, corn and mayonnaise to the pizza. Does this help one become Japanese?:wink:

You just stick to your shit sandwiches young fella, and there will nothing to worry about;)

[pixie.styx16]

sigh, I'm a girl, so you would think that I would speak normal female Japanese right? haha unfortunately, I seem to have had the same problem a lot of guys have had. Instead of sounding like a girl, I talk like a guy XD I just can't stand Japanese girls I guess, so most of my friends are guys. Plus it doesn't help my boyfriend is the one who taught me Japanese -_-;;;;