Writing Business Letters

[akatsuka]

I'm currently finding myself writing quite a few business letters to Japanese companies. I am not entirely confident at my level of keigo, no matter how hard I try things dont stick.

I was wondering if there is a site ot there that helps you with writing a japanese business letter.

Obviously as my keigo isn't perfect I don't want my letter to them to signify it is (they'll get the wrong impression and only be disappointed) but at the same time I am scared to offending anyone before they've even met me...

I did a google search, but found nothing of much use. Anyone know of anything helpful??

thanks.

[Mulboyne]

If you are writing something generic then there may be something on the web but if you need to raise an issue that the other party isn't expecting then get a native speaker you can trust to review it.

[hundefar]

This book is actually quite good, if you need to improve your keigo:
敬語入門
It's a keigo for dummies book, and good for stupid fucks such as myself. There's a section on letters in there as well.

[Marvin Feltcher]

I'm currently finding myself writing quite a few business letters to Japanese companies. I am not entirely confident at my level of keigo, no matter how hard I try things dont stick.

I was wondering if there is a site ot there that helps you with writing a japanese business letter.

Obviously as my keigo isn't perfect I don't want my letter to them to signify it is (they'll get the wrong impression and only be disappointed) but at the same time I am scared to offending anyone before they've even met me...

I did a google search, but found nothing of much use. Anyone know of anything helpful??

thanks.

I agree with Mulboyne. If it's something important, get a native Japanese speaker (who is familiar with business style writing) to write it. Even if you have to pay a pro, consider it an investment. Lots of Japanese are incapable of writing properly in their own language so it's only natural that non-native speakers often cock it up when writing in Japanese.

[maraboutslim]

But just remember that "gaijin wa nihongo ga katakoto no hoo ga ii yo ne." We don't want to make the hosts uncomfortable.

[Greji]

But just remember that "gaijin wa nihongo ga katakoto no hoo ga ii yo ne." We don't want to make the hosts uncomfortable.

BTW Slim, I don't know if you saw it, but Kume actually sent a letter of apology to Debito for having made that remark. Nice as that might have been, he's still an asshole in my eyes.

[Nobody]

I'm currently finding myself writing quite a few business letters to Japanese companies. I am not entirely confident at my level of keigo, no matter how hard I try things dont stick.

I was wondering if there is a site ot there that helps you with writing a japanese business letter.

Obviously as my keigo isn't perfect I don't want my letter to them to signify it is (they'll get the wrong impression and only be disappointed) but at the same time I am scared to offending anyone before they've even met me...

I did a google search, but found nothing of much use. Anyone know of anything helpful??

thanks.

Hi
I just found a series of 5 samples here:
http://soufujojiten.com/rirekisho/13sample01.htm
Maybe you can combine them into something that fits your needs?
Sorry if that doesn't help.

[maraboutslim]

BTW Slim, I don't know if you saw it, but Kume actually sent a letter of apology to Debito for having made that remark. Nice as that might have been, he's still an asshole in my eyes.

I saw that. Personally, I always watched News Station and liked Kume-san (and of course Komiya-san, too!) and was not offended at all by his comment.

[Greji]

I saw that. Personally, I always watched News Station and liked Kume-san (and of course Komiya-san, too!) and was not offended at all by his comment.

I saw it as well, and where I don't share you're enthusiasm about Kume (I found him a bit pompous in his presentations), I didn't really dislike him. I also can't say I was offended by his remark. I remember thinking at the time that it was a really stupid thing to say. Early in the documentary in question they had given the Indian lad's background. He was third generation Indian (all generations living in Japan), who had been born in Kobe (I think, Kansai anyway) and was educated totally up through University in Japan. Except for his pedigree, he was more Japanese than Indian.

So to lump him in the tourist, short-term FG pot in that manner and demand katakoto from a Japanese born, J-University graduate, struck me as more of a stupid thing to say, other than to take his remarks to be aimed against me personally.

[maraboutslim]

I'm sure we've been through this before in other threads, but basically i've never been a fan of believing someone to be "japanese" based on citizenship. I think Debito is ignorant to believe himself to be 'japanese' or if he does recognize the difference, totally ridiculous for purposefully ignoring the distinction between ethnicity (what japanese people mean by the word "japanese" and citizenship (all the while proving his unjapaneseness with his every action). And even in the case of a third generation immigrant, i still don't consider them 'japanese', no matter their taste in food or language skills.

Such a person still lacks the most basic essence of what it means to be 'japanese': the near identical shared experiences of individuals. to be japanese is to be a member of the group and experience life in very much the same way. when one is 'different,' and not considered part of the team, their socialization when growing up is totally different and will always prevent them from truly being part of the 'japanese' body.

It's quite a different concept from some place like Europe or the New World where cultural mixing and diversity has been the basis of identity.

This doesn't bother me one bit for myself or my children because i don't see any advantage to ever being considered part of that home team. i don't have that desperation to belong to or identify with a group. being an outsider suits me just fine. that's one of my favorite things about life in japan: i got to be the outsider, aka an individual, without having to expend any energy to do so. gaijin are given this gift of freedom for free and i can't imagine wanting to give that up.

[kusai Jijii]

I'm sure we've been through this before in other threads, but basically i've never been a fan of believing someone to be "japanese" based on citizenship. .

[SIZE="7"]

FUCK ME!
NOT AGAIN!

[/SIZE]

[ttjereth]

FUCK ME!
NOT AGAIN!

Make up your mind then. Which is it.

[amdg]

I'm sure we've been through this before in other threads, but basically i've never been a fan of believing someone to be "japanese" based on citizenship. I think Debito is ignorant to believe himself to be 'japanese' or if he does recognize the difference, totally ridiculous for purposefully ignoring the distinction between ethnicity (what japanese people mean by the word "japanese" and citizenship (all the while proving his unjapaneseness with his every action). And even in the case of a third generation immigrant, i still don't consider them 'japanese', no matter their taste in food or language skills.

Such a person still lacks the most basic essence of what it means to be 'japanese': the near identical shared experiences of individuals. to be japanese is to be a member of the group and experience life in very much the same way. when one is 'different,' and not considered part of the team, their socialization when growing up is totally different and will always prevent them from truly being part of the 'japanese' body.

It's quite a different concept from some place like Europe or the New World where cultural mixing and diversity has been the basis of identity.

This doesn't bother me one bit for myself or my children because i don't see any advantage to ever being considered part of that home team. i don't have that desperation to belong to or identify with a group. being an outsider suits me just fine. that's one of my favorite things about life in japan: i got to be the outsider, aka an individual, without having to expend any energy to do so. gaijin are given this gift of freedom for free and i can't imagine wanting to give that up.

Are you deliberately trying to bait me? What the hell does this have to do with writing Japanese business letters anyway?

[kusai Jijii]

Are you deliberately trying to bait me? What the hell does this have to do with writing Japanese business letters anyway?

Take a deep breath. Hold it. Count to three. Slowly. Exhale.
Now repeat after me: "There is no point engaging in debate with retards"

This new technique of mine works for me about 8 times out of 10. Only Charles and posts about the poor Nova refugees can get me going these days.

Peace out dudes.

KJ.

[maraboutslim]

i can't imagine being one who is so stuck on their own self-righteousness that anyone who holds a different view must be a "retard." but good luck with that. the shitty thing about the internet is that we can't just step outside and settle this like men. we have to endure all the childish name calling bullshit instead.

What the hell does this have to do with writing Japanese business letters anyway?

well it came out of the discussion about Kume's comments. By posting his comment, i was trying to express the idea that if akatsuka is writing a business letter in Japanese, or conducting business in Japanese, it might be more successful to NOT stress about being perfect with the keigo and all that crap. They don't expect us to know it and i suspect the times it scores us positive points will be offset by the times it either makes the reader uncomfortable or makes them think someone else wrote the letter for us.

but hey, whatever floats your boat.

[ttjereth]

i can't imagine being one who is so stuck on their own self-righteousness that anyone who holds a different view must be a "retard." but good luck with that. the shitty thing about the internet is that we can't just step outside and settle this like men. we have to endure all the childish name calling bullshit instead.

I kind of thought the shitty thing was people who feel the need to talk about how manly they are and how'd they'd "kick someone's ass in real life if they said that" over being called names they don't like.

well it came out of the discussion about Kume's comments. By posting his comment, i was trying to express the idea that if akatsuka is writing a business letter in Japanese, or conducting business in Japanese, it might be more successful to NOT stress about being perfect with the keigo and all that crap. They don't expect us to know it and i suspect the times it scores us positive points will be offset by the times it either makes the reader uncomfortable or makes them think someone else wrote the letter for us.

but hey, whatever floats your boat.

If you truly believe this, I'm guessing you have a pretty low-level, low paying job as a pet gaijin somewhere.

[maraboutslim]

sorry, i was a 90s gaijin, but no longer. sure, i can think of cases where gaijin may want to write perfect formal business letters. i can't think of too many cases where it would score them any more points than a non-perfect letter. mulboyne and a few others may be exceptions of course since their work requires very precise language.

i don't recall anyone talking about being manly or kicking someone's ass. i was just expressing regret that the internet allows people to behave in ways they wouldn't get away with in person. some of those retards can be pretty strong and don't take kindly to people using the word as an insult... (insert smiley).

[kusai Jijii]

the shitty thing about the internet is that we can't just step outside and settle this like men.
.

That would truly have to be one of the most childish comments I have ever read on this forum.

I'm sorry for insinuating that you were a "retard". My comment was blunt. It was rushed, and I didnt take the time to more delicately suggest to you that you lack the cognitive capacity, maturity, factual basis, and sense of humor to be engaging in debates of such nature on these boards. But that's just my opinion.

Chill out man.

[maraboutslim]

i'm not the one calling people names and posting in gigantic letters. it's all chill on this end.

off topic but.. do you really find "settling things like a man" to be "childish"? i pretty much consider it to be human nature, for men anyway - and that letting women (i suspect) turn us away from that true nature has had a net negative impact on our societies. i mean, do you really prefer the bickering and name calling and endless bullshit we have to put up with because people can't be called on the crap they dish out?

http://www.esquire.com/features/man-at-his-best/punching1207

[kusai Jijii]

i'm not the one calling people names and posting in gigantic letters. it's all chill on this end.

off topic but.. do you really find "settling things like a man" to be "childish"? i pretty much consider it to be human nature, for men anyway - and that letting women (i suspect) turn us away from that true nature has had a net negative impact on our societies. i mean, do you really prefer the bickering and name calling and endless bullshit we have to put up with because people can't be called on the crap they dish out?

http://www.esquire.com/features/man-at-his-best/punching1207

Let me try to explain it this way. I am quite ok with having a heated (but good-natured) debate with anyone. Different opinions make the world go round. But I find the overly sanitized, holier than thou, metrosexual "dont call me a retard" line quite pathetic (in an entertaining way).

In case you hadn't noticed, this board is called "FUCKED GAIJIN". It is for gaijin that are fucked. I am a fucked gaijin. Very fucked. I am on this board because I have nothing better to do. Its where I shoot shit with other people that are similarly fucked. Are you fucked too? (I'm guessing you are)

I feel no frustration about not being able to "step outside and settle things like men" with you simply because I have no desire to get into a physical ultercation with a person I have never met. Besides which, your opinion is of no real consequence to me. It is, to be blunt, insignificant. To me, you are just another Fucked Gaijin. Nevertheless, your comment about "stepping outside" was very entertaining, so I will, at least, thank you for that.

Kusai Jijii

[maraboutslim]

well, then, glad i could be of service. back to our regular programming...

[amdg]

No one expects me to be able to write a proper Japanese business letter because I'm a gaijin so I can get away with it. However, I have picked up a few tricks over the years. Firstly, yes keigo is very important, you should try to get it right. Second, always start the letter off with some pleasantry about the seasonal weather right now - like "It's still winter weather, isn't it?" or "Spring is coming soon, isn't it?". This lightens the mood, and gives that wareware feeling, - and then you can get down to business.

[Mulboyne]

mulboyne and a few others may be exceptions of course since their work requires very precise language

Precision in my line of work means having the language skills to ensure that I have a beer in front of me precisely when I want it. I still get funny looks when I order in, say, the dry cleaners but I still can't tell if the problem is my accent or my grammar. When the police arrive, they are absolutely no help at all.

[amdg]

Warning, ex-eikaiwa puppet with katakoto language skills advises you to:

1. give up learning, he did, so you can too.
2. get your philosophy from Esquire magazine.
3. when in doubt, punch someone.

This has been a public service announcement.

I'm sure we've been through this before in other threads, but basically i've never been a fan of believing someone to be "japanese" based on citizenship. I think Debito is ignorant to believe himself to be 'japanese' or if he does recognize the difference, totally ridiculous for purposefully ignoring the distinction between ethnicity (what japanese people mean by the word "japanese" and citizenship (all the while proving his unjapaneseness with his every action). And even in the case of a third generation immigrant, i still don't consider them 'japanese', no matter their taste in food or language skills.

Such a person still lacks the most basic essence of what it means to be 'japanese': the near identical shared experiences of individuals. to be japanese is to be a member of the group and experience life in very much the same way. when one is 'different,' and not considered part of the team, their socialization when growing up is totally different and will always prevent them from truly being part of the 'japanese' body.

It's quite a different concept from some place like Europe or the New World where cultural mixing and diversity has been the basis of identity.

This doesn't bother me one bit for myself or my children because i don't see any advantage to ever being considered part of that home team. i don't have that desperation to belong to or identify with a group. being an outsider suits me just fine. that's one of my favorite things about life in japan: i got to be the outsider, aka an individual, without having to expend any energy to do so. gaijin are given this gift of freedom for free and i can't imagine wanting to give that up.

[Greji]

Warning, ex-eikaiwa puppet with katakoto language skills

My katakoto is bigger than your katakoto!

[maraboutslim]

Warning, ex-eikaiwa puppet with katakoto language skills advises you to:

1. give up learning, he did, so you can too.
2. get your philosophy from Esquire magazine.
3. when in doubt, punch someone.

This has been a public service announcement.

Gee, that was cute. But it's a little inaccurate. I've been speaking Japanese daily for 16 years and certainly support the idea of doing it well, whether mine meets that standard or not. Sure, I spent six years in Japan avoiding real life and making most of my money teaching (though I also did editing, wrote magazine articles, and eventually published my own music/art magazine - in japanese). I've done a little Japanese related business from California as well. So yes, I understand the need to speak/write Japanese well.

But I also think some gaijin stress on it a bit too much. The Japanese don't expect us to be like them, in fact don't think we can be, and feel weird the closer we get to that possibility. Writing a formal business letter just like a Japanese would might be getting close to crossing that line.

As for punching people, I figure a little more of that going around would be a good thing, for the reasons mentioned in that article (despite its source).

[Charles]

[ttjereth]

[maraboutslim]

This amazing insight coming from you being Japanese? Or just from your amazingly long 6 year tenure as an English teacher?

Well maybe it'll take you longer than 6 years to figure it out, but not me. I learned about Japan and how to speak Japanese from my bandmates and surfing friends and clients and business associates. I didn't hang with gaijin - Captain Japan was about the only gaijin friend I had in Japan - and none of the japanese i interacted with were constrained by a business relationship that prescribed for them to treat me better than they would normally.
I know city folk and country folk, have been married to a Japanese for 14 years, most of our friends are Japanese, etc. It's not a unique experience exactly, but it's a fairly reliable path to learning what Japanese people really think. Much more so than from business relationships, if you ask me. It's like the difference between the politeness you'll experience from a client or vendor or supplier or coworker vs. what you'll get from the obaasan's on the train. i've spent my 16 years amongst the obaasans, so to speak.

But I'm sure your experience better qualifies you? Care to at least spell that out so we know whether to put any weight behind your dismissals of my own experience?

I really hate to be the one to break it to you, but whereas you still get the "お]

Of course. But that's not what we were talking about in this thread. One should certainly quite quickly get to the point where they pass as Japanese on the telephone, no longer get the jozu desu ne comments, don't have anyone answer them in english when they ask something in japanese, etc.

But this thread was not about writing a decent business letter with a freakin' comment about the weather up front and all that crap anyone knows after a month in Japan. It was about Keigo! He was stressing because his wasn't perfect. Well, few Japanese people under 40 are any good at it either.

I just didn't want to see the guy coming off like one of those mormon dudes on tv with the country dialects or whatever. Their japanese is good, but they are on tv because they are circus freaks. Whatever happen to just writing the freakin' letter and letting its content be interesting enough to get attention, not how authentically Japanese it is in its fake humility. it's an anachronism that needs to die anyway.

Being able to get away with not writing to the best of your ability because people expect little of you...

It's not that they expect little of you in the sense that they let the gaijin get away with something. It's slightly different. It's that they don't want to lose their special "only Japanese can do X" self-image, their exclusive rights to having four seasons, or skill at eating with sticks or eating ridiculous pre-human-discovery-of-fire food items. It either makes them uncomfortable to be shown that they ain't so special after all, or just creeps them out that someone is trying to be like they are (because either deep down they are insecure in their cultural relevance in the world, or because it's kind of like what black folks think of white rappers).

But go ahead and convince yourself. Fine with me. Go ahead and believe that Kume-san was the only one who thinks like he does/did when he made that comment. Go ahead and be the white chick who covers her mouth when she giggles to "fit in" in Japan. Won't bother me at all. But you're not going to catch me following along. I'll be the one eating as he walks down the sidewalk and drinking a beer on the train if I feel like it.

[ttjereth]

Well maybe it'll take you longer than 6 years to figure it out, but not me. I learned about Japan and how to speak Japanese from my bandmates and surfing friends and clients and business associates. I didn't hang with gaijin - Captain Japan was about the only gaijin friend I had in Japan - and none of the japanese i interacted with were constrained by a business relationship that prescribed for them to treat me better than they would normally.
I know city folk and country folk, have been married to a Japanese for 14 years, most of our friends are Japanese, etc. It's not a unique experience exactly, but it's a fairly reliable path to learning what Japanese people really think. Much more so than from business relationships, if you ask me. It's like the difference between the politeness you'll experience from a client or vendor or supplier or coworker vs. what you'll get from the obaasan's on the train. i've spent my 16 years amongst the obaasans, so to speak.

But I'm sure your experience better qualifies you? Care to at least spell that out so we know whether to put any weight behind your dismissals of my own experience?

My "dismissals" of your experience stem from the fact that if you truly beleive it's okay to slide by without doing things correctly (e.g. writing business letters using keigo) because it's accepted that you are just a gaijin and noone expects better of you, then your experience must have been extremely limited.

As for my own experiences, I'm a freelance translator, before that I worked for a translation company, before that I was a project manager at Morgan Stanley etc. etc. and tons of other jobs before that (even a year as an eikaiwa monkey, what "business associates" did you have? I've not known many eikaiwa teachers with "business associates", since you want "weight" behind experiences, what "business" where you in? You may as well provide specific examples rather than bullshit vagaries).

My wife is also Japanese, I also have many more Japanese friends than non-Japanese friends and spend more time with them than non-Japanese friends (only because of distance mind you), I learned Japanese in university, and my time here (9years+ living here consecutively since graduating university stateside, not counting time spent here while in University etc.) has been split between living in Tokyo and the boondocks of northern kanto/tohoku.

Unlike you however, I do not even pretend however to understand "what Japanese people really think".

We could sit here all dare and compare "who is more Japanese" dick size all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you are spouting bullshit when it comes to not being able to use keigo correctly because no one expects it of you, and are even more full of shit for insinuating that it may actually hurt you.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but (real) business relations are much, much less apt to be polite to you or "treat you better than they would normally" for the sake of it than are friends and family. Come here, get a real job and spend half a day getting bitched out by a client or boss and you'll see just how far the tatemae\gaman bullshit you get from friends and family stretches when money is on the line.

But this thread was not about writing a decent business letter with a freakin' comment about the weather up front and all that crap anyone knows after a month in Japan. It was about Keigo! He was stressing because his wasn't perfect. Well, few Japanese people under 40 are any good at it either.

I just didn't want to see the guy coming off like one of those mormon dudes on tv with the country dialects or whatever. Their japanese is good, but they are on tv because they are circus freaks. Whatever happen to just writing the freakin' letter and letting its content be interesting enough to get attention, not how authentically Japanese it is in its fake humility. it's an anachronism that needs to die anyway.

And he should do it to the best of his ability, not just scribble out a letter and not give a shit if he is using the correct forms or even if anything has written can be construed as rude. If you ran a business in an English speaking country and got a letter from someone in broken English, how seriously would you take it?

Also, whereas your pretentions to being the arbiter of whether keigo and "fake humility" are anachronistic and need to die are amusing, I'm afraid the real world marches on without you, and they are still very much a necessary part of the business world here.

It's not that they expect little of you in the sense that they let the gaijin get away with something. It's slightly different. It's that they don't want to lose their special "only Japanese can do X" self-image, their exclusive rights to having four seasons, or skill at eating with sticks or eating ridiculous pre-human-discovery-of-fire food items. It either makes them uncomfortable to be shown that they ain't so special after all, or just creeps them out that someone is trying to be like they are (because either deep down they are insecure in their cultural relevance in the world, or because it's kind of like what black folks think of white rappers).

But go ahead and convince yourself. Fine with me. Go ahead and believe that Kume-san was the only one who thinks like he does/did when he made that comment. Go ahead and be the white chick who covers her mouth when she giggles to "fit in" in Japan. Won't bother me at all. But you're not going to catch me following along. I'll be the one eating as he walks down the sidewalk and drinking a beer on the train if I feel like it.

So many things wrong with the above.

I like how you are trying to twist the arguement into some sort of "going native, sell out" bullshit, when in the first part of your reply you try so hard to convince me that you are one with the wa of of the Japanese for spending 16 years with the obaasans. You can do whatever the fuck you want, but that doesn't mean that trying to conform to the norms of a society you choose to live in is wrong. What's wrong with a white girl covering how mouth when she laughs? How is that any different from not blowing your nose at the dinner table in Japan, or not blowing snot rockets into public sinks in the states? Choosing to act a certain way because it is otherwise rude or unsociable is not a bad thing.

So which is it, is using proper keigo a bad thing because it is "not what the Japanese expect of us" as put forth in the first half of your reply with the whol "I am so (knowledgeable about) Japanese I hang out with the authentic real Japanese obaasans and they don't want us to/think it is weird or distrubing if we write proper keigo business letters" thing or is it the "doing so is selling out/going native/giving in to the man and I'm not gonna do that because I'm a bad boy who drinks on the train and eats while I'm walking down the street" bullshit from the second half of your reply?