HK actress for "Memoirs of a Geisha"?

[gkanai]

As we all know, Japan is for the Japanese.

[Greener]

As we all know, Japan is for the Japanese.

Well, I'll be Easy Breezy if you'll be Japanesy...

[kamome]

Mulboyne and Captain, I'll have to disagree with you here. Hollywood constantly takes unknowns and turns them into stars on big budget films. The upcoming Superman film comes to mind; the main actor chosen for the role of Superman, Brandon Routh is a virtual unknown yet is being cast in an iconic role. Others can surely come up with other examples of unknowns who became stars overnight when given a shot.

Also, I have spoken to a number of Japanese actresses/actors in Los Angeles who all have US agents and are struggling to break into that scene. Yes, they are quite unknown, but they moved to LA, speak English (or are trying hard to improve it) and are getting some roles (albeit small, stereotypical ones). I don't think this has much to do with the insular Japanese film industry, because we're dealing with a different set of actors and actresses, although I see Mulboyne's point that once you make it in Japan there would be little time or inclination to move to Hollywood.

[cstaylor]

The trailer looked lame, but I'll reserve final judgement until I see the film.

[Mulboyne]

Mulboyne and Captain, I'll have to disagree with you here. Hollywood constantly takes unknowns and turns them into stars on big budget films.
...Also, I have spoken to a number of Japanese actresses/actors in Los Angeles who all have US agents and are struggling to break into that scene.

Film financing dictates what projects make it to the screen and the rise of the agent changed the main formula from "get the money, get the cast" to "get the cast, get the money". Miramax did the same thing with independent or low-budget films - bundling script, director and star together to pre-sell overseas or video rights in order to raise money.

It's clear Hollywood does give leading roles to new faces otherwise we would all still be watching Mickey Rooney. The industry often prefers unknown or character actors for a lead where a star's own image would overwhelm the role. It's a lot easier, though, to take a risk on someone when you can communicate with him or her. Crucially, it rarely happens when a film has had a troubled production history.

Memoirs has been an odd project from the start. The surprise success of the book drew a good deal of attention and it was optioned without anyone really knowing how to make it. In fact, it was thought to be unfilmable partly because of the cast requirements. Then Spielberg acquired the rights in 1997 and the project began to make more sense. Spielberg has (some would say had) a star quality as a director that can attract an audience and so he hasn't always needed big names.

In 1997, Kurosawa was still alive and he allegedly advised Spielberg to make the film in Japanese with subtitles. This seems to have chimed with how Spielberg thought about the film and, although he probably wouldn't have gone as far as Kurosawa's suggestion, he seemed to want to create a "Japanese" project. He did, in fact find a Japanese "Sayuri". Guess where? America. Rika Okamoto, born in Tokyo but based in New York, is a dancer, which has always been a crucial requirement for the part. Spielberg was not worried about casting someone who wasn't already a star - he didn't even require previous film work - but he did want to be able to communicate with them.

Clearly, though, Spielberg just could not see how to make the project work. He was quoted in 2001 - fully four years after picking it up - saying "That needs to be at the right time. It's an incredibly delicate story. I can't just say 'OK, that's the next hamburger I need to make.' I have to get my head around it first.". Early the following year, he said "I'm not going to do it...It's over," and went away to make Catch Me If You Can.

At that point, the money pulled away and the project collapsed. A number of directors took a look but not many wanted to take on something that Spielberg had so publicly dropped. All cited the problem of finding a cast that would satisfy the finance. Without Spielberg at the helm, none of your struggling actor friends, kamome, were ever going to be candidates and Rika Okamoto was never called back.

However, a bona fide Japanese star, in theory, would have worked. But remember, this project was picked up in 1997 and only finally cast in 2004. Where were the Japanese stars campaigning to get the lead all this time? Rob Marshall went to Japan but Japan certainly didn't go to him. It was only with the success of Last Samurai and Ken Watanabe that some actors belatedly began to wonder whether they should make a bid for the role but, by that time, the window had closed.

Marshall's solution to the film's problem is one that Spielberg has applauded. Whereas Spielberg saw Memoirs as a Japanese project, Marshall saw it instead as a story set in Japan written by an American man. He dropped Spielberg's realism and went for the artifice which he saw in the book. This is the explanation which convinced Kaori Momoi to appear in the film when she had reservations about authenticity. It also gave him the freedom to cast existing non-Japanese stars and do things such as losing the white-face geisha make-up.

So I don't think this film "missed the chance to cast an unknown" because that became impossible when Spielberg pulled out and with the spectre of failure hanging over it for so long. I do think leading Japanese actors missed a chance to appear, though.

[cstaylor]

[kamome]

At that point, the money pulled away and the project collapsed. A number of directors took a look but not many wanted to take on something that Spielberg had so publicly dropped. All cited the problem of finding a cast that would satisfy the finance. Without Spielberg at the helm, none of your struggling actor friends, kamome, were ever going to be candidates and Rika Okamoto was never called back.
...
So I don't think this film "missed the chance to cast an unknown" because that became impossible when Spielberg pulled out and with the spectre of failure hanging over it for so long. I do think leading Japanese actors missed a chance to appear, though.

All you're saying here is that the casting decision was an issue with the director, NOT with the level of Japanese talent or film finance-motivated concerns. So had this project not been taken up by Rob Marshall, we might actually have seen a Japanese actress in the lead, right? If that's the case, then all the blame ultimately can be laid at Marshall's feet, not at the feet of the Japanese film industry, Hollywood, Japanese actors, finance concerns or timing. It was primarily his artistic decision, which is disappointing for proponents of authenticity.

And cst is right; this film didn't have to be big budget. But again, the budget shouldn't matter since Hollywood has made major gambles on big budget films with lesser known people in the main roles. And if one were to say that Japanese actors are more palpable for low-budget films, something about that stinks to me.

[Taro Toporific]

[Mulboyne]

All you're saying here is that the casting decision was an issue with the director, NOT with the level of Japanese talent or film finance-motivated concerns. So had this project not been taken up by Rob Marshall, we might actually have seen a Japanese actress in the lead, right? If that's the case, then all the blame ultimately can be laid at Marshall's feet, not at the feet of the Japanese film industry, Hollywood, Japanese actors, finance concerns or timing. It was primarily his artistic decision, which is disappointing for proponents of authenticity.

The casting was an issue with everyone concerned with the film, not just the director. People trusted Spielberg to have a vision of how the film could work and deferred to his judgement about using an unknown (incidentally, the role of Sayuri was the only one he had pencilled in - he hadn't filled any of the other major roles). When he pulled out, financial backers became understandably concerned about whether the film was viable and, remember, Spielberg is still attached as a producer. They wanted reassurance and casting an unknown is not very reassuring for financiers. Yes, it would be lovely if Hollywood preferred to fund brave, new exciting talents over box office bankers but that just isn't how the business is set up. The fact that unknowns do sometimes win leading roles has no bearing on the specifics of this project.

My key question is still why Zhang Ziyi, Gong Li and Michelle Yeoh are perceived by Hollywood as bankable and not any Japanese star? The answer is that they have shown they can work in the industry and they have played the game. The blame to lay at the feet of the Japanese industry is that none of its domestic stars have had the wit to develop their careers in the same way and put themselves in a position to compete for the role.

I don't know why you would conclude from what I wrote that it's all Marshall's fault. Finance didn't allow him to use unknowns and it's not his job to educate Japanese actors. Arguably, without Marshall, the film wouldn't have had a Japanese actor because it wouldn't have been made at all. Before he signed up, there was a real risk the project would die. Personally, since I'm no fan of the book, that would have been my preferred option. Whatever the size of the budget, I can't help feeling that there must be a better geisha story than Golden's to make into a film.

[dingosatemybaby]

All you're saying here is that the casting decision was an issue with the director, NOT with the level of Japanese talent or film finance-motivated concerns. So had this project not been taken up by Rob Marshall, we might actually have seen a Japanese actress in the lead, right? If that's the case, then all the blame ultimately can be laid at Marshall's feet, not at the feet of the Japanese film industry, Hollywood, Japanese actors, finance concerns or timing. It was primarily his artistic decision, which is disappointing for proponents of authenticity.

The casting was an issue with everyone concerned with the film, not just the director. People trusted Spielberg to have a vision of how the film could work and deferred to his judgement about using an unknown (incidentally, the role of Sayuri was the only one he had pencilled in - he hadn't filled any of the other major roles). When he pulled out, financial backers became understandably concerned about whether the film was viable and, remember, Spielberg is still attached as a producer. They wanted reassurance and casting an unknown is not very reassuring for financiers. Yes, it would be lovely if Hollywood preferred to fund brave, new exciting talents over box office bankers but that just isn't how the business is set up. The fact that unknowns do sometimes win leading roles has no bearing on the specifics of this project.

My key question is still why Zhang Ziyi, Gong Li and Michelle Yeoh are perceived by Hollywood as bankable and not any Japanese star? The answer is that they have shown they can work in the industry and they have played the game. The blame to lay at the feet of the Japanese industry is that none of its domestic stars have had the wit to develop their careers in the same way and put themselves in a position to compete for the role.

I don't know why you would conclude from what I wrote that it's all Marshall's fault. Finance didn't allow him to use unknowns and it's not his job to educate Japanese actors. Arguably, without Marshall, the film wouldn't have had a Japanese actor because it wouldn't have been made at all. Before he signed up, there was a real risk the project would die. Personally, since I'm no fan of the book, that would have been my preferred option. Whatever the size of the budget, I can't help feeling that there must be a better geisha story than Golden's to make into a film.

Good analysis. But don't forget to factor in TANSOKU.

Most J-actresses, no matter their foxiness, talent, and Engrish ability, gots 'em. Sad but true.

-dingo
-one spectacular exception: Koyuki. Grrr...

[Kuang_Grade]

while not up to the high level of discussion previously posted, I would remark that on tonight's Daily Show in the US, Michelle Yeoh was on, and while talking about her preparations for the role, she mentioned that she had a hard time training on the Shimasen, which John Stewart made a joke about it being some sort of trumpet. She replied that it was made out of cat skin, and then he jumped on that that for a while, ultimately ending with him throwing a rope to Yeoh with a jokey line of something like 'So you didn't kill any kittens for/in the movie, right?'

And a little while later, I was watching a video game review show on G4 and one of those hosts, said in passing judgment on a so-so game (Temco's Trapt, I believe) said something like 'well, it probably doesn't suck as much as memoirs of a geisha will'. Ouch....if game reviewers on channel Z level networks are dissing you sight unseen in topic transition dialogue, it sound they might have "Gigli" levels of PR problems..

[Taro Toporific]

....if game reviewers on channel Z level networks are dissing you sight unseen in topic transition dialogue, it sound they might have "Gigli" levels of PR problems..

I wonder what the opening week box office numbers for "Sayuri" will be like in Japan? (It opens Dec. 10 in Japan.)

How well will it do in the States? (It opens Dec. 9 in the US.)

Will it play in mainland China?

[American Oyaji]

Ummm, what is TANSOKU?

[Mulboyne]

I wonder what the opening week box office numbers for "Sayuri" will be like in Japan? (It opens Dec. 10 in Japan.)

The early reviews in the US have been good (e.g. Variety and Rolling Stone). On the blogs and forums, the naysayers primarily complain about authenticity and Chinese accents. One smaller school of thought believes that we are never given a reason to care about what happens to Sayuri. There's not enough on the web in Japan to get a decent feel.

In Japan, audiences will assume inauthenticity even if they are not especially familar with an authentic geisha world themselves. Anyway, they would be right since the director has already established that, since the book was not really authentic, he did not feel bound by that in creating his film. The question is whether they go for the story as they did with the similarly inauthentic "Last Samurai".

I think the accent problem is more of an issue for FGs as opposed to an average US audience goer. Some Japanese may pick up on it but, since they will be reading the subtitles, I wonder whether that will be a major obstacle. I did read somewhere, possibly wrongly, that there would be more Japanese spoken in the version shown in Japan but I've no idea in what way.

One member of the production team believes that if it does trip up in theatres, it will do very well on DVD sales in Japan. He is, nevertheless, confident because he thinks that the film's high production quality has been missing from recent dramas and that will be enough win people over.

The numbers will be in shortly.

[AssKissinger]

I saw the commercial on TV but it doesn't look at all like I pictured it when I read the book. It is a good book though.

[cstaylor]

Ummm, what is TANSOKU?

Japanese with overly short legs, like a pig.

[dingosatemybaby]

With the right direction this film could be made with a lot less money. How many special effects do you need for a character drama like this?

Not a direct comparison by any means, but check out Ice Cube's "Friday" series and his more popular "Barbershop" movies... great character films made on shoestring budgets. Memoirs could have been made the same way.

Second the recommendation for the "Friday" and "Barbershop" movies. Great (if generally unknown to white audiences) actors and fantastic writing. Almost as chock-full of good quotes as "Pulp Fiction."

[Mulboyne]

MercuryNews: 'Geisha' filmmakers defend casting amid Japan-China tension
...Producers Douglas Wick ("Gladiator") and Lucy Fisher, and director Rob Marshall ("Chicago"), say the casting was an exhaustive, meticulous process that considered acting ability, star power and physical traits. "Some Japanese actresses didn't even want to audition, because they couldn't speak English and were too afraid to try to take it on," Fisher said. Marshall said that when Zhang auditioned, she immediately established that she deserved to be the star: "Your hope as a director is that someone comes in and claims the role, says 'This is mine.'"..."Obviously, when you make a bigger-budget movie, the more well-known the faces are, the happier the financiers are," Fisher said.

But does casting for charisma's sake mean authenticity is sacrificed? Marshall is quick to point out that while he did extensive research into geisha culture, realism was not his chief concern. "I never intended to do this movie as a documentary-style version of the novel," Marshall said. "It really is a fable." Some who saw the movie at its Tokyo premiere thought Marshall strayed too far from reality. "I felt like I was watching a movie set in China, rather than Japan," office worker Yumiko Kamiyama told The AP. "I am big Zhang Ziyi fan, which is why I wanted to see this. But I will not be recommending it to my friends."

Still, anticipation for the movie remains high in Japan "Most of the Japanese audience who attended the premiere of this film had positive reactions," Jay Sakomoto, president of Shochiku Co., Japan's largest movie distributor in Japan, said in a statement. "Ziyi Zhang's portrayal of Sayuri was impeccable, and many people thought she seemed more Japanese than a real Japanese woman."

[Mulboyne]

[cstaylor]

Second the recommendation for the "Friday" and "Barbershop" movies. Great (if generally unknown to white audiences) actors and fantastic writing. Almost as chock-full of good quotes as "Pulp Fiction."

"How'd you go and get fired.... on your day off?"

[Greener]

[dingosatemybaby]

Second the recommendation for the "Friday" and "Barbershop" movies. Great (if generally unknown to white audiences) actors and fantastic writing. Almost as chock-full of good quotes as "Pulp Fiction."

"How'd you go and get fired.... on your day off?"

"Here Baby D, I got you one of them big cookies, and it's unwrapped, just like in the prison comissary, so you can get to it quick."

[ichigo partygirl]

Whoever said that FGs will be the toughest critics of the film are probably right. I think we pick up on things, and pay attention to certain details either Japanese or European audiences wont. I think it will be tough, especially in Europe and/or the US. Its up against the huge movies King Kong and Narnia. Geisha will get the women but Kong will get males and everyone into adventure and that loved LOR flims. Narnia will get the Christians, families, and people who read the book as a child. For that reason alone I dont think this will be a mega blockbuster hit.

[Taro Toporific]

...Geisha will get the women but Kong will get males and everyone into adventure and that loved LOR flims. Narnia will get the Christians...

Meh, I guess that makes me a male heathen, hee, hee.
Over New Years I only plan to go to Kong while I'm playing all alone in the middle of my mountain of moving boxes.... Saaaa.
I like the conclusion of this NYT review....

Underneath the Mask of a Heroine
NY Times,
December 9, 2005
Swathed in silk and longing (mostly for a bald guy called Oscar), the big-screen version of "Memoirs of a Geisha" arrives with good intentions ... amid spectacularly unfortunate metaphors about male eels and female caves and one regrettably brief catfight in a kimono......
...<big snip>...
....[the actors] deliver their lines in vaguely British-sounding English that imparts an unnatural halting quality to much of their dialogue. The. Result. Is. That. Each. Word. Of. Dialogue. Sounds. As. If. It. Were. Punctuated. By. A. Full. Stop. Which. Robs. The. Language. Of. Its. Watery. Flow. And. Breath. Of. Real. Life. Even. As. It. Also. Gives. New. Meaning. To. The. Definition. Of. The. Period. Movie.

[MrUltimateGaijin]

This included with the lack of authenticity in terms of Japanese clothing of the era

but what incredibly infintessimally small number of gaijin are going to recognize this?

[cstaylor]

Second the recommendation for the "Friday" and "Barbershop" movies. Great (if generally unknown to white audiences) actors and fantastic writing. Almost as chock-full of good quotes as "Pulp Fiction."

"How'd you go and get fired.... on your day off?"

"Here Baby D, I got you one of them big cookies, and it's unwrapped, just like in the prison comissary, so you can get to it quick."

"That's my bike, punk!"

[Greener]

This included with the lack of authenticity in terms of Japanese clothing of the era

but what incredibly infintessimally small number of gaijin are going to recognize this?

You didn't have to be from the 50's to realize that nobody and I mean NOBODY feathered their hair like Chachi did on Happy Days. From the looks of things, it is Y2K fashions in a movie that is supposed to take place between 1929 and about 1959. Pretty big difference in look don't you think?

[Mulboyne]

My take on this movie is that it is going to be Spielberg's next bought and paid for Oscar.

No-one will vote for this as a Spielberg film. He only has a producer credit on it. He'll be looking for attention for when his film about the Munich Olympics comes out.

From the looks of things, it is Y2K fashions in a movie that is supposed to take place between 1929 and about 1959. Pretty big difference in look don't you think?

The director has already said that if you want authentic, you'll have to go elsewhere

"I never intended to do this movie as a documentary-style version of the novel," Marshall said. "It really is a fable."

Of course, anyone is free to argue that his approach is the wrong way to represent the book. They have been pretty open about the liberties thay have taken, though:

Daily News: Where the kimonos are

...Director Rob Marshall had no interest in a by-the-books vision of a geisha, just as he didn't want Renee Zellweger and Catherine Zeta-Jones to look like your average prison inmates in his last film, 'Chicago.' "Ours are geishas via the Paris runway," he says. "We glamorized them. I felt the situation was similar to 'Chicago.' We needed to be free to see this as an artistic impression of their world. A traditional look would have seemed too old-fashioned, too much like a period piece."
...To get the right kimonos, Marshall enlisted costume designer Colleen Atwood, his partner on "Chicago."...Atwood had to tend to every detail - from diamond-encrusted hair combs to traditional split-toe socks. The trick, she says, was remaining true to the geisha spirit while giving her a look acceptable to Western audiences...Some 250 costumes for the four were made from scratch, and Atwood scoured everything from the archives of the Fashion Institute of Tokyo to the works of Japanese illustrator Yumeji Takehisa in search of patterns - cherry blossoms, abstracts, mountain scenes...
...But finding pieces was just the start. Because layers of kimono can turn even the curviest woman into a block, Atwood realized early on that the traditional silhouette wouldn't work. So they took some license, making the shapes sexier (obi sashes were worked to accentuate characters' curves) and more revealing (collars drape down the back of the neck, which they would never do in real life). "I'm sure it will have its detractors, but we wanted the impressionistic effect of a willowy woman," Atwood said. "We tried the other version first, but then pulled away."

[Mulboyne]

The "Sayuri" cocktail from the Grand Hyatt. 1500 yen buys you a "sweet but strong" Parfait Amour based drink.

[Mulboyne]

FrontPageMag.com: Memoirs of a Whore in a Kimono
Hollywood needs to change its name to Greater Absurdia. It's not news that, these days, it's putting out movies in which the outrageous is the heroic; the heroic is outrageous; and prostitutes are our new moral heroes. Except we're supposed to be fooled into thinking a prostitute isn't, in fact, a prostitute at all. Instead, she's a classy lady to be venerated, glorified, and even emulated. That's the case with "Memoirs of a Geisha," out in some theaters over the weekend, with subsequent roll-outs in theaters nationwide. This movie is a case of the Emperor wears no clothing. Only she's a geisha. And she's wearing an eight-layer kimono, instead. Until she takes it all off for her wealthy Japanese patron of the night. This movie, based on the best-selling novel of the same name, could have been called, "How I Became a High-Class Prostitute."

...But calling a spade a spade wouldn't sell as well to the elite, self-anointed culturatti crowd with whom a little exoticism goes a long way in excusing the inexcusable. Director Rob Marshall claims this film is a "women's epic." What's next--porn stars as the new epic heroines?...In all media appearances, the chorus is the same: A geisha is not a prostitute. She's a high-class artist skilled in fan dances, delicate walking techniques, and exotic Japanese dances. But from what takes place in the movie, you could have fooled me. A hooker is a hooker...more...