Why isn't animation as popular in the rest of the world?

[Pencilslave]

The main reason I'm such a huge anime geek, is primarily because I love animation in general, and it's hard to find anything decent here in the states. The majority of it is kid's stuff, and there are very few good animated shows and films for grown ups.

What do you folks think is the reason for this?

[Mels]

The main reason I'm such a huge anime geek, is primarily because I love animation in general, and it's hard to find anything decent here in the states. The majority of it is kid's stuff, and there are very few good animated shows and films for grown ups.

What do you folks think is the reason for this?

There is more anime in the US then ever before. Anime is on tv daily here in California. They also compete with US based cartoons. I agree though, there isnt much for adults. Difference of taste, perhaps. Barnes and Noble carries anime, but it isnt much.
Like you, many of my american friends here love anime as well. I know they have gone to conventions for anime.
So, I am not sure if it is the american companies that compete with anime that prevent them from marketing it here for adults or if is just a matter of taste.

[Charles]

Animation is popular in Japan because there is a long history of pictorial storytelling, i.e. kamishibai.

Animation is popular in the US because, as the saying goes, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American Public."

Animation is less popular in other developed countries across the world, because they know how to read.

[Pencilslave]

The main reason I'm such a huge anime geek, is primarily because I love animation in general, and it's hard to find anything decent here in the states. The majority of it is kid's stuff, and there are very few good animated shows and films for grown ups.

What do you folks think is the reason for this?

So, I am not sure if it is the american companies that compete with anime that prevent them from marketing it here for adults or if is just a matter of taste.

I hope I'm not retreading the same ground , but I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I don't understand why animation isn't as popular a medium as live action. I'd love to see American animation in such widespread use that we'd get animated film dramas, thrillers, action and adventure, etc.

Or to put it another way, it'd be great to see animated films that'd be equal to live action classics like Raiders of the Lost Ark, Casablanca, Bladerunner, The Good , The Bad and The Ugly,etc.

[FG Lurker]

Animation is popular in Japan because there is a long history of pictorial storytelling, i.e. kamishibai.

Animation is popular in the US because, as the saying goes, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American Public."

Animation is less popular in other developed countries across the world, because they know how to read.

Credit where credit's due... Charles, very well written and hilarious!

[Pencilslave]

Animation is popular in Japan because there is a long history of pictorial storytelling, i.e. kamishibai.

Animation is popular in the US because, as the saying goes, "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American Public."

Animation is less popular in other developed countries across the world, because they know how to read.

Charles,
demented fanboys aside, why the hell do you have a vendetta against animation? I'm not talking about anime I'm talking about the medium of animation itself. You know, a series of drawings photograped in sequence to simulate motion?
It's a damned medium just like live action filmmaking is. Most developed countries in the world make live action films. Reading is not neccessary to watch a movie,so does this mean most of the civilized world is illiterate?

Animation is just as legitimate a medium as live action and you don't have to worry so much about special effects, or your actors having a fit and not coming out of their trailer, or catering or all the other problems that plague
traditional film making.

[mr. sparkle]

The main reason I'm such a huge anime geek, is primarily because I love animation in general, and it's hard to find anything decent here in the states.

C'mon brotha'! How 'bout Toy Story, Finding Nemo, Shreck, Antz, and so on. We are innovators in the U.S.

So, I am not sure if it is the american companies that compete with anime that prevent them from marketing it here for adults or if is just a matter of taste.

How about PIXAR? I worked on both NEMO and an "upcoming adventure" as a pre-vis artist. I guarantee you, the U.S. animators got it goin' on. And who makes the best games? Games are where the action is with animation.

I don't understand why animation isn't as popular a medium as live action.

There will always be Bugs and Clint. Always has been that way.

I'd love to see American animation in such widespread use that we'd get animated film dramas, thrillers, action and adventure, etc.

We're gettin' there. Give it time...

[Watcher]

Good animation always makes its way to the forefront of the English speaking world. Hayao Miyazaki's fantasy pieces, Akira, and Waking Life are some modern animation examples of success commercially. Pink Flloyd's "The Wall", Fantasia and Fantasia 2000 as well. If you want to know why the "adult" stuff isn't so common it's because 1) Japanese "Adult" anime is mostly lame/pathetic/stupid escapist crap, and 2) I think that the majority of adults don't have a lot of free time to watch TV. We watch the news, business reports, and read a lot when we can't enjoy our time in the sunshine.

Yes, most anime I think is made for kids. The last really good animated form of story telling I enjoyed was "The Maxx" by Sam Keith produced for MTV's Liquid Television. That was about 10 years ago.

PS Don't worry about Mr. Sparkle and his love of Pixar.... he's dating Apple and is trying to get to 2nd base with her

[Mels]

So, I am not sure if it is the american companies that compete with anime that prevent them from marketing it here for adults or if is just a matter of taste.

How about PIXAR? I worked on both NEMO and an "upcoming adventure" as a pre-vis artist. I guarantee you, the U.S. animators got it goin' on. And who makes the best games? Games are where the action is with animation.

I misunderstood. I thought the discussion was on ANIME....should have read the original post more closely.

Yea, I agree....NEMO was one of my favorites. The US has come a long way.

[Andocrates]

Anime used to be made because it was cheaper then shooting film and you had no natural limits. But today it's become expensive to animate. So you end up with Dr. Katz style sqiggle vision of cut and paste stuff like South park.

I have always HATED American shorts like Bugs Bunny and such.

My favorite western anime;
The Critic
Dr. Katz
Home Movies
Bob & Margret
The Duck? (voice of George from Seinfeld)
Family Guy
King of the Hill

Etc. turns out there are a lot of them.

[tatsujin]

Also guys, lets not forget the cost involved with anime and the large time investment from concept to final product.

Anime vs. Live -action is almost an allegory to mainstream Hollywood films vs Eastern/European indie arthouse films (although the US does produce some great indie efforts to be fair)

At the end of the day - as always - it comes down to the quick buck!

[Charles]

Charles,
demented fanboys aside, why the hell do you have a vendetta against animation? I'm not talking about anime I'm talking about the medium of animation itself. You know, a series of drawings photograped in sequence to simulate motion?
It's a damned medium just like live action filmmaking is.

Sure, there are real artists that have worked in the animation medium, like John Lasseter or Oskar Fischinger. But overall, the medium (especially anime) is a "rush to the bottom."
Let me give you an example. Perhaps the most influential animator of all time is Jay Ward. He produced "Bullwinkle,", which was a short-lived series of satires produced largely for adults, disguised as children's fare. But aside from the actual content of the stories, Ward made one innovation, he invented "limited animation." Ward did not have the budget to produce elaborate cartoons with his small staff, so he animated everything at 6 frames per second, and only animated small parts of the screen, like just the lips of a character. This was a dramatic change from "full animation," where every single item in a frame was drawn again with each frame. Even the major studios were trying to figure out how to get away without Full Animation, their strategy was to fully animate the characters but use fixed backgrounds.
Well anyway, Ward's limited animation style was extremely influential throughout the industry's low end, it saved tons of money. One studio particularly loved the technique, Hannah-Barbera, which used the method to crank out tons of crap like Scooby-Do and GI Joe. As H-B began to make lots of money, other studios had to adopt their cheaper methods to keep up. The entire industry rushed to reduce quality of their products, once they found the public would accept Limited Animation rubbish.
I worked in Hollywood, and I knew tons of animators, and did a lot of work with studios like H-B, DIC, even the big names like Disney. And I noticed one thing about all the people in the industry: they all hated it. Working in a corporate environment where cost is the #1 criterion is not a way to produce art, it is a way to produce technicians that can crank out a soulless, lifeless product.

[Steve Bildermann]

Perhaps the most influential animator of all time is Jay Ward. He produced "Bullwinkle,"

Forever immortalized in the syncopated phrase;

'Stroke, Stroke' 'Bail Bail' Used by rowing clubs throughout the world.

Ever so slightly and probably tangentially related (Anime / Comics etc)

*** Warning - Heavy reading with dashes of Mumbo Jombo ahead

Success at Last: Alan Moore and the Graphic Novel's Viable Bridge to the 4th Dimension

[AssKissinger]

More and more I'm starting to hate anime geeks

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050219/lf_afp/afplifestyleusjapan_050219223657

[Charles]

Ever so slightly and probably tangentially related (Anime / Comics etc)

*** Warning - Heavy reading with dashes of Mumbo Jombo ahead

Success at Last: Alan Moore and the Graphic Novel's Viable Bridge to the 4th Dimension

Ah, on a brief inspection, this is just the sort of pomo stuff I love to rip to shreds. But that will have to wait for another time, when I am not procrastinating on a deadline.
So for now, I will merely offer my own attempts at producing comics. I believe these two comics masterworks, more than anything every produced before, fulfill all the potential of the medium.

[mr. sparkle]

[quote="Watcher"]PS Don't worry about Mr. Sparkle and his love of Pixar.... he's dating Apple and is trying to get to 2nd base with her ]
I'm not just blowing smoke. I really do think we do excellent work there. The stories are good, the animation is top notch and every feature has a ground-breaking technique to boot.

It's a really creative environment, really. All the stories are generated in house, all the animation is done there, it's really amazing. My supe from the last project was from the Simpsons. A real picky mo-fo, perfect for an uncompromising perfectionists environment. I love Pixar, but the dough is "ma-ma" shall we say. I prefer Apple in that department.

BTW, Japanese from Studio Ghibli came in periodically to peek in on what we were doing on my recent gig there. Apparently, we can go over there and tour their animation studio as well.

[Andocrates]

More and more I'm starting to hate anime geeks

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050219/lf_afp/afplifestyleusjapan_050219223657

Yea but why? How are they hurting anyone? Isn't this like hating Sonic Youth, one day their cool then the next day everyone decides to hate them?

I say whatever makes you happy and gives you a reason to look forward to the weekend is fine with me.

[Charles]

How are they hurting anyone?

What, you mean, other than themselves?

[Andocrates]

How are they hurting anyone?

What, you mean, other than themselves?

I'd take some nerd babbling happily about evangelion over your negative bullshit any day of the week.

[AssKissinger]

More and more I'm starting to hate anime geeks

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20050219/lf_afp/afplifestyleusjapan_050219223657

Yea but why? How are they hurting anyone? Isn't this like hating Sonic Youth, one day their cool then the next day everyone decides to hate them?

I say whatever makes you happy and gives you a reason to look forward to the weekend is fine with me.

I have always and never stopped loving Sonic Youth. I'm not sure why I hate anime geeks all of a sudden. kamome?

[Pencilslave]

The main reason I'm such a huge anime geek, is primarily because I love animation in general, and it's hard to find anything decent here in the states.

C'mon brotha'! How 'bout Toy Story, Finding Nemo, Shreck, Antz, and so on. We are innovators in the U.S.

Point taken, I'd also love to see more traditional 2-D animation. While it's true we do have shows like Family Guy, Futurama, and King of the Hill, they're done in the extremely cartoony style. I wish someone would try doing an animated series with slightly more realistic artwork. To me , Cowboy Bebop was a good indicator of what an American made series could be like.

I'd love to see American animation in such widespread use that we'd get animated film dramas, thrillers, action and adventure, etc.

We're gettin' there. Give it time...

I'll be patiently waiting for that day. Until that day comes, here's something I think would be great for an animated film: I'd love to see a studio do an animated version of one of H.P Lovecraft's stories, and it'd totally rock if they did the Call of Cthulu.
Some Pongi cartoons'd be great too.

Keep up the good work Mr Sparkle!

[Pencilslave]

One studio particularly loved the technique, Hannah-Barbera, which used the method to crank out tons of crap like Scooby-Do and GI Joe. As H-B began to make lots of money, other studios had to adopt their cheaper methods to keep up. The entire industry rushed to reduce quality of their products, once they found the public would accept Limited Animation rubbish
.
Charles, I think I've got you figured out....

Pulls off Charles's mask "Hey! It's old man McGee!" " He wanted to make everyone hate comics and animation!" "

"And it woulda worked too! If it hadn't a been for you meddlin' kids!!!"

"SCOOBY DOOBY DOO! HEE HEE HEE!!!"

[Charles]

Charles, I think I've got you figured out....

Pulls off Charles's mask "Hey! It's old man McGee!" " He wanted to make everyone hate comics and animation!"

Nah, if I really wanted to make kids hate comics and animation, I'd write some. Oh wait, I already did that.

One day around 1985 or so, a writer friend of mine called me in a panic. He said he had to write the story for 4 episodes of a new cartoon for one of the spanish TV channels, it was due the next day and he had absolutely nothing. Of course I'm always full of stories, so he begged me to come over and help him write it, and I knew he was serious because he offered to actually pay cash. I said I'd be right over.
Knowing writers as well as I do, I insisted we sit down and start drinking heavily so he'd get too drunk to realize what a load of bullshit we were writing. The character was supposed to be a mexican peasant and his trusty mule, trudging through the desert, getting into adventures with an environmentalist theme. He wanted to do something like Don Quixote. I said this is a kids show, we need something more visual, how about making him a Yaqui shaman like the Carlos Castaneda stories, he could be tormented by hallucinations of spirit guides every time he goes to sleep, they could show him how to use his magical powers to fight evil. He thought it was a great idea. I thought it was absolutely the worst crap ever, and the worse I made it, the more he loved it. So we sat down to write the worst cartoon series ever conceived. We finished late in the evening, he paid me a hundred, and I left, sure that this load of steaming dung would never EVER get made.
OK, so about 6 months later, I'm flipping through the channels, skipping past the spanish channels as usual, HEY wait a minute, WTF was THAT? Right before my eyes, on the TV, was the cartoon I wrote, except the mule is now a robot with telescoping legs that can walk a mile each step.

The moral of the story:
1. There is no cartoon script so bad that someone won't produce it.
2. There is no cartoon script so bad that someone can't make it even worse.

[Pencilslave]

Charles, I think I've got you figured out....

Pulls off Charles's mask "Hey! It's old man McGee!" " He wanted to make everyone hate comics and animation!"

Nah, if I really wanted to make kids hate comics and animation, I'd write some. Oh wait, I already did that.

One day around 1985 or so, a writer friend of mine called me in a panic. He said he had to write the story for 4 episodes of a new cartoon for one of the spanish TV channels, it was due the next day and he had absolutely nothing. Of course I'm always full of stories, so he begged me to come over and help him write it, and I knew he was serious because he offered to actually pay cash. I said I'd be right over.
Knowing writers as well as I do, I insisted we sit down and start drinking heavily so he'd get too drunk to realize what a load of bullshit we were writing.

We finished late in the evening, he paid me a hundred, and I left, sure that this load of steaming dung would never EVER get made.
OK, so about 6 months later, I'm flipping through the channels, skipping past the spanish channels as usual, HEY wait a minute, WTF was THAT? Right before my eyes, on the TV, was the cartoon I wrote, except the mule is now a robot with telescoping legs that can walk a mile each step.

Not such a bad premise, animation is perfect for off the wall shit. I would have watched it. And you seem to forget that artists and writers sometimes do their best work when they're FUCKED UP!!!.

You and your writer friend had sweet booze. Salvador Dali locked himself in a closet till he hallucinated.

[Charles]

Not such a bad premise, animation is perfect for off the wall shit. I would have watched it.

No you wouldn't, you would have turned the channel as fast as you could. It really was bad. Really really bad. Really really REALLY bad. Plus it was in Spanish, and Spanish cartoons have the worst voices and the worst drawing in the industry.
I wanted to have kids watch mindbending hallucinations of demons, maybe you would have watched that, but they made the spirit guide into Woodsy the Owl, and the entire animation budget seemed to have been spent on the robot mule's telescoping legs. But I'm sure that somewhere, there are people out there that fondly remember this stupid cartoon.

[Kuang_Grade]

Plus it was in Spanish, and Spanish cartoons have the worst voices and the worst drawing in the industry.

Don't you mean Mexican/Hispanic? Or are you talking about some vague Catalan cable channel?

http://www.awn.com/mag/issue5.06/5.06pages/cohenmoose2.php3

Anyone fascinated with the industry should enjoy the account of how Rocky and his Friends ended up being animated in Mexico (the original plan called for the production to go to Japan). The show's first production budget was miniscule compared to the cost of a Hanna-Barbera production from the same time. Keith Scott interviewed the Americans who oversaw the production in Mexico and their accounts explain the numerous problems that resulted. His detailed account even hints at an under-the-table deal that resulted in the show going to Mexico in the first place

Well anyway, Ward's limited animation style was extremely influential throughout the industry's low end, it saved tons of money. One studio particularly loved the technique, Hannah-Barbera, which used the method to crank out tons of crap like Scooby-Do and GI Joe.

And unlike your previous post where you said GI Joe was done H B, they were actually done by a company called Sunbow, which was created to do cartoons for Hasbro (they also did Transformers) and I believe they later did "the tick". There was also another company called DIC (which you state you worked with) that also did some GI Joe cartoons after Sunbow.

[Charles]

Plus it was in Spanish, and Spanish cartoons have the worst voices and the worst drawing in the industry.

Don't you mean Mexican/Hispanic? Or are you talking about some vague Catalan cable channel?

Don't be ridiculous. You know I meant cartoons in the Spanish language, not cartoons in Spain. If you want to hear what I'm talking about, go rent some American porn redubbed for the latino market. A friend of mine was a voiceover artist, he liked to show people his work dubbing porn, oh man it's awful, all the women sound like Charo.

And unlike your previous post where you said GI Joe was done H B, they were actually done by a company called Sunbow, which was created to do cartoons for Hasbro (they also did Transformers) and I believe they later did "the tick". There was also another company called DIC (which you state you worked with) that also did some GI Joe cartoons after Sunbow.

Oops, you are correct, I worked with the GI Joe writers when the production was at DIC, they were not at H-B. This was a long time ago and my old clients are becoming sort of a blur. My office was just a couple blocks down the street from H-B in Studio City, DIC was a bit farther away in Burbank, near one of our branch offices.

[cstaylor]

I'm not sure why I hate anime geeks all of a sudden. kamome?

You've recently found good taste?

[Big Booger]

I'm not sure why I hate anime geeks all of a sudden. kamome?

You've recently found good taste?

hehehe... Come on, Cosplay rulez! Neon Genesis all the way baby!

[cstaylor]

Come on, Cosplay rulez!

Beautiful women look great in anything... sadly, most cosplay participants are a little long in the tooth...