The Dark Knight as Japanese proto-types I

[Steve Bildermann]

There've been some interesting discussions in the comics "blogosphere" lately about Super-Heroes being fascist1 and some particular interpretations of Batman as he is portrayed in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns as being a failed model of [classical] heroism. I've done some searches and have yet to find much of anything that even comes close to addressing the influences of Japanese culture on Miller's work (other than the obvious suspects, e.g. Ronin). And despite the almost singularly narrow reading of Miller's rendition of Batman2 in The Dark Knight Returns, I think there is much more that can be said about the collusion of cultural themes and the logic by which Miller resolves the story.

http://silpayamanant.indytron.net/archives/000176.html

Ninja and Ronin are two obvious Japanese proto-types that have influenced or inspired Miller in the writing of DKR. Kage Musha and Monk as cultural proto-types may have less of a direct influence on the portrayal of the Dark Knight, but there are some interesting links to be made.

Ninja are the half mythological warrior-assasins in Japanese culture. Often described as having supernatural powers and fighting prowess, more likley than not this is just a romanticization or exaggeration of half-told rumors and tales of their unorthodoxed methods. Few facts can be verified, though some things can be picked out of the morass of re-presentations of these mysterious figures.

...after the 50th new member said he wanted to come to Japan because he loved Manga I asked Ultra to change the name of the forum to THE DORK GAIJIN but he said no...

...see nobody listens to me

[Mulboyne]

I've done some searches and have yet to find much of anything that even comes close to addressing the influences of Japanese culture on Miller's work (other than the obvious suspects, e.g. Ronin).

I haven't done much of a search but you might track down more influences through "Lone Wolf and Cub" (Kozure Okami). When First Comics tried to publish this series in English back in 1987, Frank Miller had just produced Ronin and Dark Night. He was a big supporter of the project which, nevertheless, ran out of money. I think there were about twenty stories published, all with Frank Miller cover art. Dark Horse eventually picked it up and recently translated and published the entire series.

Miller on Kozure Okami

"It takes you to another time, and to a frightening, alien land, windswept and gray, dying in quiet obedience to insane decrees of insane leaders," said Miller, who counts the series among the greatest works of graphic fiction ever crafted. "Its authors took the time and space to tell their tale in its every moment, often devoting many pages to scenes that wouldn't last three panels in a monthly American superhero comic book. We come to know the players, large and small, as we meet them, as they reveal themselves to us. Koike and Kojima tell their story masterfully and artfully, portraying a man, a boy, and a country on their journey into Hell."

[Kaibutsu]

...after the 50th new member said he wanted to come to Japan because he loved Manga I asked Ultra to change the name of the forum to THE DORK GAIJIN but he said no...

...see nobody listens to me





I humbly apologize for myself ,and for all anime and manga geeks (especially the American ones!)everywhere.

There's a heck of a lot more to Japan than animation and comics, and I hope that with the help of this forum,I can learn to appreciate the rest of what Japanese culture has to offer.

[Steve Bildermann]

humbly apologize for myself ,and for all anime and manga geeks (especially the American ones!)everywhere.

There's a heck of a lot more to Japan than animation and comics, and I hope that with the help of this forum,I can learn to appreciate the rest of what Japanese culture has to offer.

No problem. You are most welcome here.

The 'manga' gaijin is just a long running joke we all contribute too.

[Charles]

Yeah, Miller used manga as source material, so fucking what?

I know Frank Miller, he was a computer client of mine, he used to live right across the street from me, the windows of his loft looked across the street into my loft windows, and vice versa. We lived right next to Little Tokyo, I used to see him at Yaohan Plaza, browsing manga at Asahiya Shoten. So fucking what? It was our local grocery store, everyone in the Traction Avenue artists' district used to walk to Yaohan's to buy food, beer, etc. We all liked to browse the funky crosscultural goods in the stores in Yaohan plaza.

What people apparently do not realize is that Japanese literature did not start with Atom Boy and modern manga, or Kurosawa films. Many artists are acquainted with Japanese literature in various forms that do not involve manga.

Oh, and one other note: I know a few famous comic artists, they all have one thing in common: they all live in total fear of the freakazoid assholes that buy their product, they create product for an audience of people they absolutely hate and have utter contempt for. They don't want their home addresses known to the public, they live in fear of a deranged stalker assassin, or worse. So here's a tip for manga otaku: the people you idolize hate you, and they are laughing at you all the way to the bank because they are exploiting you for their own amusement and profit.

[kamome]

Oh, and one other note: I know a few famous comic artists, they all have one thing in common: they all live in total fear of the freakazoid assholes that buy their product, they create product for an audience of people they absolutely hate and have utter contempt for. They don't want their home addresses known to the public, they live in fear of a deranged stalker assassin, or worse. So here's a tip for manga otaku: the people you idolize hate you, and they are laughing at you all the way to the bank because they are exploiting you for their own amusement and profit.

Hmm, sounds like the relationship that William Shatner has with Trekkies.

[Noiseman433]

I haven't done much of a search but you might track down more influences through "Lone Wolf and Cub" (Kozure Okami). When First Comics tried to publish this series in English back in 1987, Frank Miller had just produced Ronin and Dark Night. He was a big supporter of the project which, nevertheless, ran out of money. I think there were about twenty stories published, all with Frank Miller cover art. Dark Horse eventually picked it up and recently translated and published the entire series.

Yeah, I noted some of this in my later installments of this crit-project, the archive of which may be found here:
http://silpayamanant.indytron.net/archives/cat_the_dark_knight_as_japanese_prototypes.html

Miller on Kozure Okami

"It takes you to another time, and to a frightening, alien land, windswept and gray, dying in quiet obedience to insane decrees of insane leaders," said Miller, who counts the series among the greatest works of graphic fiction ever crafted. "Its authors took the time and space to tell their tale in its every moment, often devoting many pages to scenes that wouldn't last three panels in a monthly American superhero comic book. We come to know the players, large and small, as we meet them, as they reveal themselves to us. Koike and Kojima tell their story masterfully and artfully, portraying a man, a boy, and a country on their journey into Hell."

Thanks for that quote--where is it from, BTW?

[Noiseman433]

What people apparently do not realize is that Japanese literature did not start with Atom Boy and modern manga, or Kurosawa films. Many artists are acquainted with Japanese literature in various forms that do not involve manga.

I'm actually going to compare and contrast Miller's narrative style with that of shish&#333] at some point.

I've just been finding it interesting that so many (and most of these people to which I refer are "western"...or I guess [i]gaijin would be more appropriate, though I'd use farang myself, being Thai) comic book readers have consistently almost blacklisted Batman as a "super-hero" (at least the Frank Miller versions), just because he doesn't happen to fit into a western model of heroism...which I personally think is a little silly, since it's obvious (at least to me) that Miller wasn't quite using that model of heroism for his portrayal of Batman...

anyway...thanks for the comments--it helps me to contextualize some things!

[Noiseman433]

oh--and thanks to Steve for initially posting the link above--and any criticisms and comments are welcome here or at the specific entries at Mae Mai...

[Mulboyne]

I got the quotation from
HERE
It may have come from his intro to the First Comics Kozure Okami run.

Hmm, sounds like the relationship that William Shatner has with Trekkies.

William Shatner? Heard his new release? He has just released a CD with Joe Jackson and Ben Folds including a cover of Pulp's "Common People"

[Noiseman433]

I got the quotation from
HERE
It may have come from his intro to the First Comics Kozure Okami run.

Thanks! I was wodering where all the Dark Horse articles/interviews with Miller had went--the urls I came across were dead with no re-directs. I should have looked closer!

[kamome]

Hmm, sounds like the relationship that William Shatner has with Trekkies.

William Shatner? Heard his new release? He has just released a CD with Joe Jackson and Ben Folds including a cover of Pulp's "Common People"

I'd rather listen to white noise.

[Steve Bildermann]

I'd rather listen to white noise.

Good choice. Me too.

I heard them sing at a concert in LA for the millenium celebrations.

http://galaxy.twd.net/natemark/whitenoise.html

White Noise is a vocal quintet performing chiefly a cappella music. The group was formed in 1998, when this group of close friends and frequent musical collaborators decided to begin reading through some vocal music together. As busy schedules allowed, their repertoire increased, and the group felt confident to begin seeking audiences. Their first performance was in February, 2001, and they have since performed for venues and events such as the Java House in Windber, PA, the Women's Help Center "Extravaganza," a feature guest appearance with the Johnstown Symphony Orchestra in December 2001, Society for the Preservation and Encouragement of Barber Shop Quartet Singing in America (S.P.E.B.S.Q.S.A), Altoona Curve, and various private events performing for such artists as Jane Monheit and Diana Reeves. White Noise will be featured in the Johnstown Symphony Orchestra's 2003 December performance premiering an original composition, "Child of Wonder."

[Kaibutsu]

Oh, and one other note: I know a few famous comic artists, they all have one thing in common: they all live in total fear of the freakazoid assholes that buy their product...

First of all, that's true of creators or celebrities in any industry, from novelists to sports stars, musicians and film/TV stars. They all have obsessive, freaky, stalker fans.

I also know a number of artists who work in comics and animation in the US. Some of them are just as obsessed with the stuff as the fans are. I'll spare you the gory details, but let's just say an unhealthy amount of their income goes back into building their own collections. And when they aren't signing autographs at conventions, they turn into rabid fanboys themselves. If you've ever been to an animation or comic studio, you'll know what I'm talking about. Their cubicles and offices are jam-packed with otaku paraphernalia.

A good example of a Japanese artist who hasn't lost touch with the fans is Ken'ichi Sonoda,who's most well known for Gunsmith Cats. He got his start creating doujinshi and still does doujinshi from what I've heard.

One of the most interesting stories he's done was in 1994 for an issue of a doujinshi series called "Chosen Ame" The story was " Godzilla vs North Korea ".The story has Godzilla rising from the ocean off the North Korean coast and advancing on Pyongang. Kim Lee Jong deploys a Gundam wearing a NVA uniform to fight Godzilla who trashes it easily. Jong then orders the launch of the Nuclear tipped warhead they've denied having for years. The people finally have had enough, and overthrow the goverment and hang Kim Lee Jong. The story ends with the starving two million man North Korean army swarming all over Godzilla like ants screaming"MEAT!MEAT!" and they eat him to death.

[Noiseman433]

I'd rather listen to white noise.

here's some white noise for you...

[Noiseman433]

The story ends with the starving two million man North Korean army swarming all over Godzilla like ants screaming"MEAT! MEAT!" and they eat him to death.

Sounds like a classic.

excellent!

[Noiseman433]

ok, here's the archive page for anyone interested:
http://silpayamanant.indytron.net/darkknight.html

[tonikoro]

How funny,

I ran into Frank just last month at the SDCC. He can be disgruntled if he wants, as per his Head shaving, pierced earring look. I said hello to him as we know a few people in common, and each time I've bumped into him he's been more cordial than a few other names in the DH set. Having done some published work as a creator for DH, I would say the Editorials of a many publisher have a greater stick up it's Arse.

-As a comics creator I don't fear (for the most part) people who appreciate my work, but if there are creators like those mentioned previously above, I find it kind of pathetic for a market so tiny as the states. To state Pros being just as much fanboys as the fanboys, I can identify with to a point, but to say is almost redundant. Of course! -From fandom stems pros who will want to do thier obsession as a career option, yes?

[Kaibutsu]

Oh, and one other note: I know a few famous comic artists, they all have one thing in common: they all live in total fear of the freakazoid assholes that buy their product.....


An amusing example of a comic artist being in fear of their fans is shown in Comic Party volume one....