Apartment

[unkosando]

I have been offered a job in Tokyo. It's been a while since I lived there and I was wondering how is the rental market these days? My office would be in Minami Azabu. Would it be possible to get a decent 2LDK not to far away from my office (less than 30 km) for around \200000? Do you have any area recommendations?

Also are landlords still asking for that ridculous key money?

Thanks

[Taro Toporific]

...in Minami Azabu. Would it be possible to get a decent 2LDK not to far away from my office (less than 30 km) for around \200000? Do you have any area recommendations?
Also are landlords still asking for that ridiculous key money?

-->Which subway is closest to your office: Tokyo Metro Nanboku Line, Toei Oedo Line, Toei Mita Line, Tokyo Metro Hibiya Line or??
[INDENT](Although it is not obvious, many of these lines directly-but-byzantinely connect to the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C5%8Dky%C5%AB_T%C5%8Dyoko_Line]Tō]. The areas served by the Tōkyū Tōyoko on the west side of the Tama River only 22+ minutes from the Minami Azabu cost 40% less to rent than Tokyo proper.) [/INDENT]

-->200,000 yen/m for rent is very doable (100-160,000 yen/m is possible) but as you know "decent" does not describe substandard Japanese housing even in the upper ranges.

-->"Ridiculous key money" still exists, but there are many deals and bargains to be had IF you can speak Japanese.

-->Finding a Japanese rent guarantor is still the biggest problem for a gaijin renting. Do not assume your company will automatically help you since many do not (for example Hitachi).
[INDENT] If a company is not offering to arrange housing for you, they ain't worth working for (unless you have plenty of zuzushii).[/INDENT]

[Samurai_Jerk]

I have been offered a job in Tokyo. It's been a while since I lived there and I was wondering how is the rental market these days? My office would be in Minami Azabu. Would it be possible to get a decent 2LDK not to far away from my office (less than 30 km) for around \200000? Do you have any area recommendations?

Also are landlords still asking for that ridculous key money?

Thanks

If you live in Minato-ku, Chuo-ku, Shibuya-ku, Chiyoda-ku, or a couple of other centrally located "ku" a decent 2LDK for 200K a month is tough. In other areas it should be doable though. Within 30 km it's no problem. Taro's suggestion is definitely good. The West side of town is a lot greener too. If you want to live in a more shita machi area go East. There are some decent deals to be had around Kinshicho.

[Iraira]

1) Ask yourself how far you mind walking to the closest station? Uphill 15 minutes both ways in the summer kinda sucks.
2) Also, if there are two lines that meet at a station near your place...major bonus.
3) Found that the total square meters of the place was more enticing than some 2DK, 2LDK, 1LDKS label that doesn't really give me the feel for whether I can spread out....spoiled only child here.
4) Also, if there is a restaurant or even worse, a supermarket on the first floor of the building, you've got the potential for cockroaches galore during the summer.
5) Also, and this may sound stupid, but find a place that has a good conbini close by. I got stuck with a 3F which just feels all ghetto.....kinda like finding Hunt's ketchup instead of Heinz on the table. Don't start with me on this: Hunt's is pure gutter ketchup. Back on topic: There's a Sunkus (slightly better ghetto) nearby, but laziness at 2am makes it feel light years away.

[unkosando]

Thanks for the advice everybody.

I am still negotiating with the company. I am trying to get them to provide the apartment as part of my compensation package.

The closest station is either Hiroo on the Hibiya sen or Shirogane Takanawa on Nanboku sen or Toei Mita Sen.

My son is only 2 now but would like to consider good areas for school.

I will take the advice about not living in a building where there is a combini or restaraunt. I have seen this problem first hand last time I lived in Tokyo.



All in all we are pretty excited to move back. Just hope my negotiations go well!:kanpai:

[GomiGirl]

My son is only 2 now but would like to consider good areas for school.

[floatr][/floatr]
Well that area is ripe for schools. It is in the heart of the "ghetto". But as Taro pointed out there are plenty of great places within a 30 minute commute where you will get more bang for your buck.



If you are looking at schools, try this book:
Guide to International Schools in Japan
Published by Caroline Pover of Being-a-broad.

[unkosando]

We have finally found a place. More expensive than I wanted to spend but it's in a nice area of Setagaya Ku. Lots of schools and a park near by.

I forgot how fucking difficult it is to rent a place here.
My company has to guarantee.
We have had to hire a gurantee company as well.
That wasn't enough so we have to have my Father In-law guarantee as well.
(This is a bummer as I hate putting family in this position.)

I am hoping this is all because we have been out of the country for 10 years.

Does it get easier than this?

[GomiGirl]

Does it get easier than this?

Nope.

It is weird that you needed your name, your company's name, a guarantor company AND your FIL. Normally it is just you and your company but it depends on the company you work for.

Sounds like the real estate agent is in deep with the guarantor company and the others are just to make sure they are never out of pocket.

[unkosando]

Nope.
Sounds like the real estate agent is in deep with the guarantor company and the others are just to make sure they are never out of pocket.

Yeah GG. I thing I agree with you there. Probably see an opportunity to line their pockets.

My company is not too small. Around 200 people and it's been around for 30 years.

Oh well.

[Yokohammer]

Does it get easier than this?

Not in Tokyo, and certainly not for a potentially rent-skipping untrustworthy foreigner.

Trying to rent a decent house or apartment in Tokyo and environs these days is harder than getting a substantial bank loan.

The last time my wife and I rented (in Yokohama) was around 20 years ago. And when we had to leave that place we spent a year and a bit searching for a decent place to go. We looked at at least 50 places, and actually applied to rent three. In every case we had to list just about every detail of our private lives on the application forms, along with proof of income, and of course a guarantor, who also had to provide personal details and proof of income, and in some cases a guarantor for the guarantor. Fucking ridiculous.

In every case we were turned down.

Now, I have my own company and earn a decent living, and my wife was working for the government at the time (the Japanese one, of course). We were still turned down after going through long and frankly intrusive application processes. In one case we waited two months to be told "no."

We were getting frustrated and exhausted, and in the end we just threw up our arms and decided to buy a place. It was a hell of a lot easier than trying to rent. I understand that not everyone wants to or is in a position to do that, but that's how crazy the rental market has gotten.

And that doesn't mean that people are clamoring to rent, either. Places are empty, and yet there's this "we'll only accept the highest class of renter" attitude.

I've been here a loooong time and rented a lot of places, but this last time was just too much. Never again.

[Iraira]

See, I don't understand this. I've never had a problem getting a place...I'm not talking about a "Fuzoku ok! Mizushobai ok! Pet ok! Gaijin ok!" place either.
I always would bring a male Japanese friend with me to the fudosan for the first time, and for some reason that seems to give the FG credibility.
Only been denied once, because my company wouldn't do rentai hoshonin (liable for the duration of the contract)...can't blame my boss of shying away from that responsibility. So, I had a one-time half-month's rent rentai hoshonin be my co-signer on a different place. They went bankrupt during the course of my first two year contract, and when it came time to renew, the fudosan people said, "You always pay your rent on time, so we and the landlord feel you don't need a co-signer."

From what the fudosan people told me, when I was initially looking for the place, some of the tried and true Japanese customs remain:
You are more acceptable as a gaijin tenant if
1) You are not from "one of those countries" (their words). No specific examples of "those countries" were provided.
2) You work "a real job" (their words), which they defined as a job that is not eikaiwa.
3) You've been here awhile and speak enough of the language so they feel they can communicate with you.

[Yokohammer]

See, I don't understand this. I've never had a problem getting a place...I'm not talking about a "Fuzoku ok! Mizushobai ok! Pet ok! Gaijin ok!" place either...

When was the last time you moved to a new place?

I had never had any trouble either, until the mess I described above. That was 2007 ~ 2008 in the Yokohama area. I was astonished by the amount of trouble we had. Bought the place we're in now in March of 2009.

I've been here longer than many of the fudo-san people we talked to, speak/read/write the language, am a permanent resident, have been running my own (admittedly small) company without ever incurring any debt successfully for around 25 years, have been married to a Japanese woman (the same one even) for almost 30 years, and she had worked for the government for close to 30 years ... I honestly couldn't image what the fuck more they could want. Maybe it was just timing, I dunno, but we could not find a suitable place that the landlords would deign to rent to us.

It was almost easier to get a credit card here ... that only took about 6 months of applying and re-applying to a multitude of places (although that's another horror story, for another thread).

EDIT: I should probably add that we're delighted with the place we ended up in, so perhaps all the hassle was a good thing. If we had simply been able to rent the first place we liked, that's what we would have done, and would have missed out on owning a really nice home in a beautiful area. Some struggles work out for the best.

[Iraira]

When was the last time you moved to a new place?[/i]

I moved in 2007...in the summer...make mental note not to do that again. had to have a sit down with the landlord first, which ended up as a debate over ramen preferences. Probably got lucky in this case.

[Taro Toporific]

I had never had any trouble either, until the mess I described above. That was 2007 ~ 2008 in the Yokohama area. I was astonished by the amount of trouble we had. Bought the place we're in now ...

Fuckhead fudo-sans have been such grief, I finally just bought a place five years ago.

First/Worst case fudo-san threw his office waste baskets at me when I tried to walk in their office that I had walked past for 6 months everyday while quietly living with a Japanese family in the neighborhood.

Mostly over the years lying dogshit fudo-san played passive-aggressive games with me. When I walked into their office they were polite, said they needed to "investigate" more for me, and said "no problem" over and over. After I left, they refused to offer me any listings (or only rentals covering with black mold or located next to toxic waste yards). To this day, late at night after the last train, I always choose fudo-san office to take a piss on its entrance.

[Yokohammer]

Fuckhead fudo-sans have been such grief ...

Fuckhead fudo-san *and* slimeball landlords.
Had a few experience with both varieties even when I was successfully renting.

One landlord was in the make-money-on-reikin-and-shikikin game. After I had been warmly accepted as a tenant, I learned that previous tenants had been in and out on a remarkably regular 2-year or 4-year cycle. Turns out the bastard would give unsuspecting tenants some bullshit story that his son was going to get married and was going to live in the house, get them to move out, then he'd turn right around and rent to some other sucker. He was getting 2 months reikin and 2 months shikikin (maybe it was more ... anyway he had never paid the deposit back) every time, and raising the rent.

Lo and behold I got the same "you have to leave because ..." line, so I sued ... and won a settlement for the full amount I had asked for (the case did not go to court). It was an incredible pain in the arse that took more than a year to straighten out, but I wasn't going to let the fucker take advantage of me.

POSTSCRIPT: Gotta love Karma. People who make a habit of screwing people usually get bit in the butt. After the landlord had settled with me and I gave him his house back, he rented it to some shady character (Japanese ... I guess he'd had it with "difficult" gaijin) who completely destroyed the place and left without paying any rent. After that the place was empty for a couple of years and finally sold. So there.

[Coligny]

My craphole in Nagoya was litterally a Polish Submarine... Dripping with water all year round (90% humidity in winter, water dripping on the electric plugs)... Wind, first floor but over the parking so lotsa noise. Electricity... buzing all the time, even if there was only 1 plug per room, as much as gas plugs in fact. New neighbours all the time, except for the hostesse coming back with noisy high heels everyday around 2am...
But the picshures speaks 4 themselves...



My cat nearly died from infections (scratch+black mold or sumthing)

(What aboot... getting the fook outta here ?)

But on the last day I saw the landlord
(son and daughter of the owner)...

(Le fap...)

But rental in japan, married to sumone who don't give a frack since she's always at work... nevar again... Mah clinic might be an industrial ruin barely in better condition than gunkajima... but when there's a leak I can fix it mahself without having to fear aboot forbidden modification... Now If I could get dad to update the electricity...

Adorable, in his "no fooking clue but in charge anyway" kind of way...

[Samurai_Jerk]

It really is a YMMV type of situation because I've never had trouble with real estate agents here either. Sometimes landlords would tell them over the phone that a specific room wasn't available to foreigners but they always came up with decent places to show me. I've always gone to the major chains though, so I wonder if that's why.

[FG Lurker]

I've had pretty good luck with real estate agents. I have lived in 4 different rentals here and only once when looking did a landlord say "no gaijin". I ended up with a better place anyway so it wasn't an issue. (I'd actually sooner know the guy doesn't like gaijin up front rather than have him scam my deposit or something when I leave. I'd also just as soon not give my money to someone who doesn't like me simply 'cause I'm not Japanese.)

Both places I have bought here went very smoothly as well. The cottage was a direct purchase from the previous owner and there were no problems at all, just a bunch of paperwork for the transfer. No loans involved which was good as I don't think any bank in existence would lend money to buy a cottage+land on an island in rural Japan.

Later when we needed a loan to buy a place in Osaka that went far smoother than I ever imagined. UFJ even gave me a preferential "1 percentage point off posted rates" interest rate. No loan cosigner or anything like that either. It was actually easier to get a house loan that it was to get the first car loan I applied for here, and far easier than getting a credit card was. Go figure!

So, all things considered I can't really complain about my experiences with Japanese real estate thus far.

[unkosando]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the replies. I was wondering what is the best way to protect yourself from this scam? I am assuming I would do the norm and take lost of pictures before I move in.

Anything else you can think of?

[Doctor Stop]

Anything else you can think of?

Don't pay your last rent until you move out and receive your deposit back.

[GomiGirl]

Take lots of photos and match them up with a floor plan showing what/where damage exists and submit them to the fudosan within 7 days of moving in. Get it in writing that fudosan has received and accepted these.

This lets them know from the get go that you know the current state of the property.

Keep copies for yourself of course.

If you need to act on this after you move out, just know that it will probably end up in small claims court. It is not that scary - I have done it but it was 1 property out of about 6 that I have been involved in that they tried to pull this scam. Usually, they will try it but if you are firm they will usually back down and you can get at most of your deposit back. The one time I had to take it all the way was with a very dodgy landlady.

Also check your contract.. sometimes they will waive reikin but make at least 1 month of the shikikin non-refundable. Check the fine print.

[Yokohammer]

This lets them know from the get go that you know the current state of the property.

And that you're not going to lie down and take it if they try to screw you. Sometimes that'll be enough to prevent problems.

Another small scam to watch out for is "cleaning money." Some fudo-san/landlords will try to get cleaning money from you when you move in, and then again when you move out. That's obviously not right.

Even if it's only at one end of the deal, there often isn't any real cleaning involved. One place I rented as an office wanted cleaning money when I moved in (it was only about 20,000 yen or so). They promised me that would pay for a proper cleaning company to come in and make the place spotless. I said OK and paid up. When I moved in I took a damp rag and wiped it along the wall ... it came off black. There was no trash on the floor, to be sure, but the place definitely hadn't been properly cleaned.

This sort of thing accumulates to erode one's faith, unfortunately.

[unkosando]

Well it looks like we got the apartment after all. Thanks for the input:D