PSE Certification

[matsuki]

Are there any famous cases of people/companies getting fucked for PSE certification violations? Apparently, one of the new products I want to import will require this shit (contains a lith-ion battery which is already CE, RoHs, FCC, EMC, etc certified...but not PSE) The quote from the manufacturer to PSE certify it is pretty insane (though not sure if that's just marked up?) so I'm wondering how necessary it really is.

[wagyl]

Readers, I was just as mystified, so to help us all along, " Product Safety of Electrical Appliance & Materials Certification."

I know nothing about the particulars, but it sounds like you are saying "the regulations require that I have this certification before I can import. How necessary is it?"

I suppose you are asking like "regulations say that I have to be never married, or widowed or divorced before I can marry my girlfriend. How necessary is that?"
or like "regulations say that I have to enter into a contract with NHK if I have a TV. How necessary is that?"

and now I see the thrust of your question: can I get away without certification? What happens if I get caught?

Another way for you to look at it is that all other importers will face the same kind of costs. Will passing on those costs to the consumers be so much that they won't buy any more? Or are you worried about other importers skirting the rules and being able to sell more cheaply?

Is it out of the question for you to seek certification independently of the manufacturer? Otherwise, can you present an argument to the manufacturer that certification will help it in other markets as well, so you should not have to foot so much of the bill?

[Coligny]

Are there any famous cases of people/companies getting fucked for PSE certification violations? Apparently, one of the new products I want to import will require this shit (contains a lith-ion battery which is already CE, RoHs, FCC, EMC, etc certified...but not PSE) The quote from the manufacturer to PSE certify it is pretty insane (though not sure if that's just marked up?) so I'm wondering how necessary it really is.

I don't understand much...
http://www.jet.or.jp/en/law/pse/index.html

Don't know if they issue a certification number...

If it's just the sub component (lipo) that need to be certified, source them locally.

CE don't count... It's a self attributed certification . The maker say "yeah I followed dem'rules" (declaration of conformity) and put the CE mark. Nobody cares until the death start to pileup...

[wagyl]

Ahhh so it is a Japan-only standard. More Galapagos in the making. That also explains why searching "PSE certification violations" didn't bring up anything useful: Puget Sound Energy and Philippine Stock Exchange have been naughty with some violation of regulations, however...

Coligny's suggested possible workaround if it is only related to a particular component, to arrange for importation without that component and fit a local one here, is a good option to consider if the alternatives are too burdensome. In the tradition of Mattel*

* batteries not included

[matsuki]

Technically, my distributor here is the importer so it's not myself at risk. Yes, it' more Galapagos bullshit, in the name of "safety" when it probably has more to do with keeping foreign shit out of Japan or making it more expensive within Japan. Sourcing local is about 500% higher in cost so not an option.

The PSE website makes it sound like it's absolutely required by law but I've rummaged through about 50% of the electronics I own and less than half have the PSE stamp on them. So what I'm wondering is if this is really the law, and if it is....is it toothless and/or even monitored.

[matsuki]

...and just to add, the manufacturer (Chinese, so of course I don't trust em) claims the PSE certification is not necessary to sell in Japan. These are somewhat custom batteries as they have a specific connector, output, etc. We pretty much have an exclusive on the product so not really competing with anyone directly though a big part of the reason I'm reluctant to sign off on this is the battery manufacture would basically gain PSE certification and be able to sell this model in Japan (undercut us?) or to competitors at my expense. If the PSE certification was only in my brand's name, I'd probably just suck it up and pay. The PSE website has a bunch of shit on 3rd party certification that I'm looking into: http://www.jet.or.jp/en/law/pse/ Just wondering if any of you have any experience here or have heard of anyone getting fucked for violating this requirement?

Coligny, how many of your RC toy batteries have any of this shit on them?

[IparryU]

Coligny, how many of your RC toy batteries have any of this shit on them?

gonna take him a few hours to go through all that... race cars, helicopters, sex toys...

[Russell]

Coligny, how many of your RC toy batteries have any of this shit on them?

gonna take him a few hours to go through all that... race cars, helicopters, sex toys...

Don't you think he has it already in a database?

[wagyl]

I love the branding looseness shown, so that the average Taro in the street wouldn't be able to tell if the similar design mark on the Chinese rip off is authentic or not. This is of course presuming that Taro is aware of this certification, which I doubt. Half of their own designs look like fake rip offs of their own mark.


Ooooh dearie dearie me, I hope that doesn't give Choko any ideas



Speaking seriously, I suppose you realise that the certification requires inspection of manufacturing facilities, so it may be difficult to get permission for that if the manufacturer chooses to be difficult.

[Coligny]

...and just to add, the manufacturer (Chinese, so of course I don't trust em) claims the PSE certification is not necessary to sell in Japan. These are somewhat custom batteries as they have a specific connector, output, etc. We pretty much have an exclusive on the product so not really competing with anyone directly though a big part of the reason I'm reluctant to sign off on this is the battery manufacture would basically gain PSE certification and be able to sell this model in Japan (undercut us?) or to competitors at my expense. If the PSE certification was only in my brand's name, I'd probably just suck it up and pay. The PSE website has a bunch of shit on 3rd party certification that I'm looking into: http://www.jet.or.jp/en/law/pse/ Just wondering if any of you have any experience here or have heard of anyone getting fucked for violating this requirement?

Coligny, how many of your RC toy batteries have any of this shit on them?

NONE...

Need more info on the specific on this certification and how it applies... Cert can be so different in nature, is it an application purpose cert, saying the product can be used for its intended environment and purpose ? like carpetting for aircraft would need to be. Fabrication method cert... organisationnal cert, packaging ? recycling ?
A lipo battery for a RC Helo would'nt need a cert that would be mandatory if certified to be used in real helo...
even a fucking fuse holder would need different certification for hobby use, automotive use, main house power use (wall mounted), house appliance use (inside the appliance), wet room use, outdoor home use, home/office use, industrial use...

The whole "allowance to check the production facilities" makes me wonder aboot the validity for import products...

[Sarutaro]

I believe battery-powered items do not need PSE marking, only things that connect to the mains. I'm importing an electric toothbrush powered by regular AA batteries and it doesn't need any certification concerning electrical safety.
(Shameless plug purely to prove the point above: http://blueillume.envoy.jp )

If included, a battery charger would have to have PSE certification, though.

[wagyl]

Just checked the Li ion battery on the laptop, and it has the fifth mark from the left and name of the company which assembled the laptop on it.

[Russell]

Li ion batteries can be dangerous, so they need good quality control.

It totally makes sense that they require certification.

[Coligny]

Li ion batteries can be dangerous, so they need good quality control.

It totally makes sense that they require certification.

1: Tell that to boeing.
2: you are right... And wrong.

Like gasoline is dangerous... But it's not for that reason that it need certification. Soft non puncturable fuel tanks are much more important than quality of the fuel.
For LiPo, you need much more to be concerned with the charging circuit, temperature monitoring, holder design allowing puffing without perforation, fireproofing if any , visual check and current limiter of the device than you need to be concerned by the lipo itself.

AND it depend on the size... A 500ma lipo can be used safely as a buttplug... Go to a medium helo 4000ma and you are good for burning a house. Those new 10 to 20 amp that are available for ipod charge and -real- car jumpstart. You are reaching military ordnance level of firepower...

[Coligny]

I believe battery-powered items do not need PSE marking, only things that connect to the mains. I'm importing an electric toothbrush powered by regular AA batteries and it doesn't need any certification concerning electrical safety.
(Shameless plug purely to prove the point above: http://blueillume.envoy.jp )

If included, a battery charger would have to have PSE certification, though.

You didn't choose the shape innocently at all you little bastard... A powercord would have ruined the double use...

[matsuki]

The whole "allowance to check the production facilities" makes me wonder aboot the validity for import products...

Somewhere in that sea of txt I read that facility checks aren't needed for internationally certified facilities.

I believe battery-powered items do not need PSE marking, only things that connect to the mains. I'm importing an electric toothbrush powered by regular AA batteries and it doesn't need any certification concerning electrical safety.
(Shameless plug purely to prove the point above: http://blueillume.envoy.jp )

If included, a battery charger would have to have PSE certification, though.

The manufacturer claims the battery chargers are low powered (1A) enough to not require them though the PSE site specifically lists lithium batteries as requiring PSE.

Li ion batteries can be dangerous, so they need good quality control.

It totally makes sense that they require certification.

Right, but not that they need some special "We Japanese" certification when they meet all the international standards and have that certification. Remember how "Japanese snow is different" and how "Japanese are unique?"

[wagyl]

Ask the manufacturer to point to the part of the regulations which say that low powered chargers do not require certification.

[matsuki]

Ask the manufacturer to point to the part of the regulations which say that low powered chargers do not require certification.

Good idea and I will ask...but I doubt the response will be very enlightening. Their rep seems to be well versed in top 40 music but clueless when it comes to simple points about the very product they are trying to sell.

I'm trying to get my customer (the one who will be liable if they get called out) to fork over the $$ for PSE certification or at least call "JET" and get a straight, real-world explanation and possibly the consequences of being caught in violation of the law. If the penalties are stiff and all that jazz, I'll push for the PSE and then anonymously report our evil nemesis who basically sells shitty Chinese copies of our other products for non-compliance right before the selling season

[wagyl]

I'm presuming that you have read this before starting this thread, but maybe that is a poor presumption.
http://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp ... m=04&re=02
Chapter 7 (Art. 57 ff) sets out fines, earlier chapters talk about restrictions on doing business after a punishment.

[matsuki]

I'm presuming that you have read this before starting this thread, but maybe that is a poor presumption.
http://www.japaneselawtranslation.go.jp ... m=04&re=02
Chapter 7 (Art. 57 ff) sets out fines, earlier chapters talk about restrictions on doing business after a punishment.

Read it but Japanese legalese and real world enforcement can be night and day.

With all the current certification these batteries already have, my guess is that they will pass the certification without much problem and hopefully at much less cost if we can do it "third party." But yeah, the real issue is what actually requires the galapagos certification...which is what I'm waiting on my customer to decide.

[wagyl]

Cool. Good to have it confirmed that you do your homework. And I agree that the exercise of the regulations can often be different to what you expect.

[matsuki]

So the battery manufacturer has a charger that already has PSE certification...JET requested all that info as well as pics/specs/etc. for the batteries. Next day Jet replies saying to sell the already PSE certified charger, we need a duplicate "statement of conformity certificate" in the importers name...and it's only a 20,000yen fee As to the battery, they replied, saying that it will take 3 months of testing and cost 1,000,000yen

Bullshit meter here is off the charts as the manufacturer is only asking for $3,900 for PSE certification...and is also saying that since it's encased, with a board, and only 7.4v, just like the "Power banks" (think keitai and tablet mobile batteries) being sold in Japan, it doesn't require PSE certification. Sure enough, all the power banks I have in my possession...none of them have PSE cert. *They actually call them mobile batteries so it doesn't seem like naming is an issue either.

So....my distributor is thinking to suck up the 20,000yen bullshit fee for the charger certification copy in their name but is undecided about the batteries. My opinion is not to bother with the batteries since none of the other similar battery packs like it being sold here have it. Worst case scenario I see happening is they get called out on it and have to get certification later. Anyone else have any comments or advice?

[wagyl]

Just checked the Li ion battery on the laptop, and it has the fifth mark from the left and name of the company which assembled the laptop on it.

Do you want/need photo evidence of this? Or would you feel better looking the other direction? It may be because all the makings are on the battery and not on the laptop which includes the charging mechanism, and because they are sold as a set, or it may be not. I have no information either way. The manufacturer is Frontier/Kouziro, if you care to follow it up with them.

For no extra charge I will include a photo of the Li ion battery for my Fujitsu "feature"phone, which also has the mark. Those batteries are sold separately, but once again only to people who have the phone which includes the charging mechanism.

[matsuki]

Interesting, how recent are these devices? I found it on a dell AC adapter but not the battery. The past few weeks, I've gone up and down the aisles at a few stores (home centers were particularly helpful) and none of them had the PSE mark on the battery packs, only the chargers. We're talking manufacturers like Ryobi, Makita, Bosch, etc. and higher voltages/amps/capacity than the packs I'm concerned with. Then there are "power banks" which are those mobile batteries we use to charge our phones. None of them have the PSE mark either, foreign or Japanese branded.

The one exception to all this, a similar battery pack to what I'm concerned with, by a very small company trading company, similar to my customer. That pack differs by having a digital controller on the top so it's not the same nor could we use it. Overall, the impression I get is this marking issue is not enforced and ultimately may not be enforceable due to the way the law is written. (even the JET people said, it doesn't require a mark if it's encased...but the contradict themselves by saying what we submitted requires the mark. At the end of the day, it's not my neck on the line so all I can do is report what I've found and see what decision they make.

[wagyl]

Laptop is about to have it's first birthday, 4500 mAh, 48Wh
Phone battery is a replacement/spare I got within the last 2 years, 3.7 V 800mAh rating
(saving me getting a camera out: http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%80%90%E3%83 ... =pd_cp_e_0)
Perhaps notable in these cases is that there is NOT a mark on the device which has the charging function.

Edited to add further search on the AC adaptor for the laptop reveals it has the diamond mark and JET, but I will be buggered (and it will hurt) if I can see whether it is PSE or PSC even with a magnifying glass. The AC adaptor for the phone has a PSE mark.

[matsuki]

Do you have a pic of the laptop battery?

With the keitai battery, my guess is it was required because it isn't encased. That seems to make sense with it. We had a previous battery that had a fireproof nylon-type wrap on it but we were told it wouldn't pass PSE since it wasn't hard plastic and wouldn't be placed inside casing when in use.

[wagyl]

Same as these, except these photos do not have the resolution to confirm marking.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/ ... ~60_35.JPG
http://gdimg1.gmarket.co.kr/goods_image ... 460989.jpg

If need be I can get my camera out and get some better photos.

I can confirm that other batteries in the same series do not appear to have the certification, but then they have multiple European language but no Asian language on them except the Chinese manufacture.
Like these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/9-Cell-Genuine- ... 4897.l5669
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8Cell-Genuine-B ... 4897.l5668
Note that those last two also do not ship to Japan, put that might be a shipping restriction rather than an entry to country restriction.

[matsuki]

Interesting, that is definitely encased. Thanks for the info.