[CLOSED] Another newbie reporter "discovers" Japan

[FG Lurker]

The average American is just clueless. Outside of the otaku/anime world Canada has a far bigger influence on American pop-culture than Japan does.

Other than Hockey, I can't imagine what you are talking about.

My point exactly.

Your point is that Canada's influence is so great and yet a well educated news junky like myself can't think of anything influential that's (uniquely) Canadian? You may think it proves I'm clueless, but what it really proves is that Canadian influence is non-existant.

My point is that you consider yourself well educated yet have no idea what I am talking about. You may be well educated about US history and US current events, but I would say you know little about your neighbours to the north.

We could look at major cultural things....like basketball, which was invented by a Canadian.

Or we could look at individuals who have had influences on American culture or taken part in American culture. Peter Jennings for example, a major figure in American TV news, was Canadian. There are actually quite a lot of Canadians in the US broadcast business -- Americans tend to not like their own accents (funnily enough, a lot of the world would agree) and therefore import Canadians with less grating voices.

You could look to the entertainment world as well: Jim Carrey, Mike Myers to name two more recently famous Canadian comedians. John Candy (hilarious guy, IMO) was Canadian. Keanu Reeves is Canadian. Pamela Anderson is Canadian. There are many others -- do a Google search. Music is well covered too...Alanis Morissette, Bryan Adams, Avril Lavigne, Neil Young, Celine Dion, Deep Purple... All Canadian acts. (No, many are not my taste either, but they have all done well in the US -- and there are dozens more.)

Or we could go into the science side of culture... Let's see, something major from American life...how about the telephone? Yeap, Alexander Graham Bell was a Canuck when he was granted the phone patent -- go look it up. He became an American later, but later again moved back to Canada. Saw the err of his ways I guess.

Or, moving away from culture a bit, I bet you believe that Edison invented the light bulb, right? No, actually he bought the patent from Henry Woodward, a Canadian, and improved on the idea.

Perhaps the biggest difference between the US and Canada (besides a general culture of violence & governmental tendencies to invade small countries) is that Canadians tend to be a bit more humble about things...and as such we don't get a lot of recognition for contributions made.

[maraboutslim]

Of course I know many famous Canadians. In fact, if you'd be reading my posts, you'd see that I already tried to explain that clearly Candian individuals have made contributions to things invented or controlled in America (I used the example of rock n roll). I just don't consider that a Canadian influence on American culture: it is simply Canadians coming to the states and playing within American culture. Peter Jennings, the actors, the musicians....they all influence America from within the American business world. You can add Bell to that list. Has Canada influenced basketball anytime in the last century?

Perhaps the biggest difference between the US and Canada (besides a general culture of violence & governmental tendencies to invade small countries) is that Canadians tend to be a bit more humble about things...and as such we don't get a lot of recognition for contributions made.

Humble? I've never met a Canadian that didn't have a huge inferiority complex about the "lack of recognition" his country receives. God, they can't stop trying to prove how great their country is. The nationalism drives me nuts! It's almost worse than "red state" Americans.

You know how all little dogs have to bark all day long at every little thing, trying to convince them that they are tough and not to be messed with? Annoying, isn't it?

Canada needs a new approach: "Hey, we're Canada: we're small, cold, and we pretty much just mind our own business up here in groovy places like Moosejaw, Saskatchewan or Dildo, New Foundland. We don't go around messing with other countries, and we aren't as materialistic and violent as the evil Americans to the south." Now that I could dig.

BTW, I applaud Canada for not invading small countries. Right on, Canada!

[Socratesabroad]

We could look at major cultural things....like basketball, which was invented by a Canadian.

In fact invented by a Canadian while he was in the US, where he lived most of his life, found his brides, contributed greatly to local sport, and where he was finally laid to rest.

James Naismith spent his first 21 years living in Almonte. He went to Montreal for school in 1883 and remained there till 1890 before he ventured to Springfield, Mass. With the YMCA till 1895. He was stationed in Denver, Colorado till 1898 until he accepted his post at the University of Kansas until his death in 1939.
James Naismith had the great vision to introduce 2 objects in his life. In 1891 he introduced the game of basketball as a winter indoor sport in Springfield, Mass. And in 1894, he introduced the football helmet for American Football.

Or we could go into the science side of culture... Let's see, something major from American life...how about the telephone? Yeap, Alexander Graham Bell was a Canuck when he was granted the phone patent -- go look it up. He became an American later, but later again moved back to Canada. Saw the err of his ways I guess.

Hardly. He wasn't even a Canadian.

Alexander Graham Bell, the many-faceted genius, was not a Canadian nor did he invent the telephone in Brantford, Ontario. He was born in Scotland, and the first proven voice message over wire occurred in a Boston attic on March 10, 1876.

And to reiterate

Bell was not a Canadian citizen but he did much of his most distinguished work in Canada.
His grave is located in Canada on top of Beinn Bhreagh mountain overlooking the Bras D'or Lakes in Cape Breton. The wording on his gravestone reads simply, "Teacher - Inventor - Citizen of the U.S.A.".

Sorry, the tombstone makes no mention of Canada.

Or, moving away from culture a bit, I bet you believe that Edison invented the light bulb, right? No, actually he bought the patent from Henry Woodward, a Canadian, and improved on the idea.

And let's see how those intrepid inventors did in fair Canada

In 1875, Edison purchased half of a Toronto medical electrician's patent to further his own research. That researcher was named James Woodward.
Woodward and a colleague by the name of Matthew Evans, described in the patent as a "Gentleman" but in reality a hotel keeper, filed a patent for the Woodward and Evan's Light on July 24, 1874.

Woodward and Evans were treated as cranks and subject to much public ridicule. "Who needs a glowing piece of metal!!" They attempted, with very little success, to form a company to raise money to refine and market their invention. (Where is the federal government when you really need them?)

In 1876, Woodward obtained a U.S. patent on his electric lamp and, in 1879, Edison considered it sufficiently important to completely buy out the patent from Woodward, Evans, and all their Canadian partners. Woodward sold a share of his Canadian patent to Thomas Edison in 1885.

Thus the electric light bulb became American.

(Oh, and incidentally those Canadians didn't invent the light bulb either:

1854 - Henrich Globel, a German watchmaker, invented the first true light bulb. He used a carbonized bamboo filament placed inside a glass bulb.

)

Perhaps the biggest difference between the US and Canada (besides a general culture of violence & governmental tendencies to invade small countries) is that Canadians tend to be a bit more humble about things...and as such we don't get a lot of recognition for contributions made.

Perhaps humility is needed given the number of mis-statements and basic errors made here, as proven by Canadian sources I've cited, about Canadians and their contributions.

[FG Lurker]

Of course I know many famous Canadians. In fact, if you'd be reading my posts, you'd see that I already tried to explain that clearly Candian individuals have made contributions to things invented or controlled in America (I used the example of rock n roll). I just don't consider that a Canadian influence on American culture: it is simply Canadians coming to the states and playing within American culture. Peter Jennings, the actors, the musicians....they all influence America from within the American business world. You can add Bell to that list.

Culture isn't just some magical thing that "exists". Culture is created by the people involved in it. If the people who are working within a culture come from a different culture naturally they will affect it. This is my point.

Has Canada influenced basketball anytime in the last century?

Nope, not much. Well, not besides inventing it, anyway... Did I say otherwise somewhere?

Perhaps the biggest difference between the US and Canada (besides a general culture of violence & governmental tendencies to invade small countries) is that Canadians tend to be a bit more humble about things...and as such we don't get a lot of recognition for contributions made.

Humble? I've never met a Canadian that didn't have a huge inferiority complex about the "lack of recognition" his country receives. God, they can't stop trying to prove how great their country is. The nationalism drives me nuts! It's almost worse than "red state" Americans.

Actually, the core of this issue is people like you who say things like "Canada has no influence, yada yada yada." This causes much eye-rolling on the part of Canadians, and general laughter among ourselves. (Which is exactly what James and I did earlier today on MSN after reading your posts.)

Canada needs a new approach: "Hey, we're Canada: we're small, cold, and we pretty much just mind our own business up here in groovy places like Moosejaw, Saskatchewan or Dildo, New Foundland. We don't go around messing with other countries, and we aren't as materialistic and violent as the evil Americans to the south." Now that I could dig.

Generally speaking that is exactly the way Canadians are. A few prods will usually get a reaction though...

BTW, I applaud Canada for not invading small countries. Right on, Canada!

Now, if only Canada could somehow get the US to see the light about this... Not likely, unfortunately.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have traveled through many parts of the US. Probably been to more places than most Americans have. I had a great time and had no negative experiences. I was in huge cities and rural areas, and I have great memories of all of it. The worst things that happened the entire trip was a flat tire in Boston caused by a chunk of metal in the road, and a horrible hangover in New Orleans. Anyway, I don't dislike the people of the US in general, just some of the superiority attitude and a lot of the policies of the current government.

[dingosatemybaby]

"There must be something in that cold arctic air up north, but Canada has produced a surprising number of entertainers and singers popular with today's young people, including legendary rocker John Mellencamp, guitar-strummin' Gordon Lightfoot, whose song "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" was a number-two pop single in the US in 1976, and delightful comedians like Howie Mandel (I challenge anybody not to laugh when he puts that rubber glove on his head!), Jim Carrey, and Martin Short, whose character Ed Grimley charmingly satirizes the speech patterns and syntax of the typical Canadian male."

[dimwit]

"There must be something in that cold arctic air up north, but Canada has produced a surprising number of entertainers and singers popular with today's young people, including legendary rocker John Mellencamp, guitar-strummin' Gordon Lightfoot, whose song "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" was a number-two pop single in the US in 1976, and delightful comedians like Howie Mandel (I challenge anybody not to laugh when he puts that rubber glove on his head!), Jim Carrey, and Martin Short, whose character Ed Grimley charmingly satirizes the speech patterns and syntax of the typical Canadian male."

You truely understand the Canadian spirit.

[Mulboyne]

Our Discovery of Japan And Its Culture
Our daughter was teaching English in Japan during 2001-2002, so my wife and I took advantage of this to visit her from Dec.22nd to Jan.2nd and stay in her home (in Katsutadai neighbourhood, Sakura City, Chiba Prefecture to be more precise). Since Jackie had become quite fluent in Japanese, and had adopted a Japanese lifestyle, this was a unique opportunity to really start to understand a people very different from the European backgrounds with which we are familiar.
A Daily Narrative of Our Trip
...It took about 10 minutes to walk to the restaurant. Jackie ordered Meso Ramen...We eat around Jackie's Katatsu...we went out again and bought Japanese oranges that look and taste just like Mandarins - they're called mekans...Then, we went to a shrine called Meiji-Jingo...We managed to eat just about everything - including the sushumi...We caught the 10:04 train - first stop: Ueno Park (pronounced "weno")...then we were off to an isakaya...
Personal Relationships / Cultural Differences
The Japanese eat raw fish, but would not think of eating raw vegetables (raw carrots are "for horses"). Eels are a delicacy....Keep tissues with you, as napkins are not served...Cartoons - old and new - are everywhere to advertise businesses. Many are from America; Jackie's bank used TinTin to promote itself...Everyone keeps things so neat...Taxi drivers have feather dusters and dust their cars when they are not in use...There are few if any garbage cans even in Tokyo --- people are not expected to litter. Every empty space seems to have a garden or something growing in it.
...Everyone here - adults as well as children - reads monga...Japan has the most advanced cell phones and video / TV equipment you'll see anywhere...However, virtually no one will take credit cards...Tipping is an insult

...This "Love Hotel" (or "snack shop") is a fairly common structure in most Japanese cities. Busy "salary men" (a typical salaried employee) stop in by the hour after a long day's work. [I don't think Jackie is telling Daddy the whole story]

[Mulboyne]

Advertiser-Tribune: West meets East: Calvert teacher travels to Japan
Bob Stover's interest in Japan started more than 45 years ago and expanded into a visit to the country to study its education system. In second grade, he and his classmates made kimonos, and he started writing to a Japanese pen pal as a freshman in high school...Stover's interest turned into an international travel experience through the Japan Fulbright Memorial Fund Teacher Program..."When I looked out my bedroom window, I saw Mount Fiji," he said. "Every morning, I said, 'Good morning, Mount Fiji.'" ...[Principal] Mass said anyone serious about teaching is always open to learning about the world and education and looking to further his or her knowledge. "Bob is certainly one of those types of educators," he said.

[omae mona]

"When I looked out my bedroom window, I saw Mount Fiji," he said. "Every morning, I said, 'Good morning, Mount Fiji.'"

Good lord. Well, the good news is that I tracked down his Japanese pen pal:

[Mulboyne]

Bloomberg: Jeff Wall, Nobuyoshi Araki and Diane Arbus in London Art Shows

...A friend of mine, a newcomer to Japan, was once amazed on entering a sushi bar to discovery that the raw fish was laid out on a naked woman. Customers picked it off with chopsticks.

Walked into a sushi bar and saw that? I think not.

[gomichild]

Meh I think not as well. Guilty of perpetuating the myths there.

*edit* the writer's email address is on the article (martin@cgayford.freeserve.co.uk) perhaps we should email him a clue.

This also annoyed me in an earlier post:

... Meso Ramen... Katatsu... mekans...Meiji-Jingo...sushumi... Ueno Park (pronounced "weno")...isakaya...

Miso Ramen
kotatsu
mikan
Meiji-Jingu
sashimi
Ueno (is pronounced u-e-no - but quickly)
izakaya

For goodness sake - Japanese words are bloody phonetically spelled!

[Pal_msy]

Many are from America; Jackie's bank used TinTin to promote itself...

Tin Tin is Belgian...

[Mulboyne]

Kantipur Online: Sushi Sampling 101
Sushi must be one of the most misunderstood dishes in Nepal...People overseas have this on a regular basis as they would fast food, and the trend is catching up fast...At the Lobby Lounge of Hyatt Regency Kathmandu, the Sushi and Sake promotion is going on...Chef Rohit of the Lobby Lounge made it a point to accentuate that all sushis served will not have any raw materials and will be fully cooked...Best eaten cold, the sushi has the same appealing taste as that of a frozen coleslaw or ice-cream.

[Greji]

"...Chef Rohit of the Lobby Lounge made it a point to accentuate that all sushis served will not have any raw materials and will be fully cooked...Best eaten cold, the sushi has the same appealing taste as that of a frozen coleslaw or ice-cream...."

Not have any raw materials?

[Mulboyne]

[gomichild]

What streets in particular and in what time-era did they draw this inspiration from?

[Taro Toporific]

Subject: News, Religion and Belief
Caption:
Tokyo, JAPAN: Japanese men attach wish notes at a Shinto temple in downtown Tokyo, 23 November 2005.
ALEXANDER NEMENOV/AFP/Getty Images, 23 Nov 2005 12:00 AM

Sorry Mr. Nemenov of AFP: Those are pieces of paper tied to the tree are bad fortunes (omikuji) not "wishes."

Revised Caption: Tokyo, JAPAN: Japanese men show their love of nature by putting their bad-luck fortunes called Omikuji on a tree to give it their bad luck.

[Taro Toporific]

Japan visit gives teacher new view
The Arizona Republic-=Nov. 28, 2005 12:00 AM.
..Mueller, who teaches at Arcadia High School, spent three weeks in Japan through the Japan Fulbright Memorial Fund Teacher Program....the program is sponsored by the Japanese government and is designed to increase understanding between Japanese and Americans by inviting U.S. teachers to visit Japan and share their experiences with fellow Americans upon their return.
"It's a humbling experience where you learn about the Japanese respect for everything, for each other, other people and the environment," said Mueller.

[Molokidan]

"It's a humbling experience where you learn about the Japanese respect for everything, for each other, other people and the environment," said Mueller.

I wonder how 'humbling' he thought those kancho's were.

Priceless. Truly priceless.

[djgizmoe]

"At 5' 10", I was too tall for Tokyo."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10312475/site/newsweek/

Insert snide aside HERE.

[Charles]

"At 5' 10", I was too tall for Tokyo."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10312475/site/newsweek/

Insert snide aside HERE.

More than once I slipped slowly into the small, deep ofuro only to create a large tidal wave that flooded the white tile floor, overturning the wooden stools, green soap dishes and pink buckets in a scene reminiscent of "The Sorcerer's Apprentice."

Um.. that has nothing to do with being too tall, and everything to do with being too fat.

[maraboutslim]

On the other hand, many times I spoke in what I knew to be passable Japanese to a clerk or conductor, only to be rewarded with a vacant stare and a long, drawn-out "Huhhhh?" The person to whom I was speaking couldn't believe that Japanese words were coming from a foreign face.

I've always been suspicious about this whole idea that there are Japanese who are so shocked by foreigners speaking Japanese that they fail to understand what is being said to them. Hell, there are gaijin speaking Japanese on TV every day, right? Japanese speaking, white skinned, mountain bike mounted Mormons have surely knocked on every door in Japan by now as well, huh? Every Japanese should be well aware that gaijin can speak Japanese.

It seems so much more likely that the "huh?" response is because the language wasn't as "passable" as the FG thought, or was being spoken to the wrong person (i.e. the puzzled expression isn't "what is she saying?" but "why is she talking to me about this?") or some other problem.

[Charles]

I've always been suspicious about this whole idea that there are Japanese who are so shocked by foreigners speaking Japanese that they fail to understand what is being said to them.

You've never actually BEEN to Japan, right? Or perhaps you have, but you don't speak Japanese at all?

Yes, even the most fluent gaijin can tell you many similar stories, it is quite common. For example, I was at a job fair, I had been extensively coached on set phrases by my instructors, who advised me on subtleties of keigo and pronunciation. I went up to a nihonjin standing beside a pile of job applications, he was handing them out so I asked for one by saying "kyuushoku moshikomi o itadakitai n desu ga.." The response, "Time? It's about 4:30."
The bilingual nihonjin could not concieve that Mr. FG could speak Japanese, so he tried to parse the Japanese statement as English, and could only parse out one bit, "itadakiTAI N" and heard that as "TIME."
Later that day, I checked with a nihonjin friend of mine who would have told me if my grammar or pronunciation was off, he said it was perfect.

I spoke to my professors about this, and they said it happens all the time, so they advise that before you just start speaking Japanese to a stranger, you have to get the listener prepared so they realize that what is coming out of your mouth is Japanese, not English. She suggested starting such conversations with an unmistakable Japanese signal, like "sumimasen ga.." or "etto.." or something like that.

Of course these language problems can always be worse. I once went up to a ticket vendor at a table in a museum, I wanted to buy a ticket to the exhibit. I said something extremely simple, like "hitori desu" and the woman jumped up from her chair in a panic, and exclaimed "aaa! gaijin ga shaberu!" and she ran away!

[Greji]

the woman jumped up from her chair in a panic, and exclaimed "aaa! gaijin ga shaberu!" and she ran away!

Did you check to see if your fly was open?
:P

My daidai senpai Jack Seward (R.I.P.) called that in his FG master piece, the "fool's valve". He maintains that all Japanese have one that has only two positions and automatically switchs to the English position when confronted with a FG face. It causes the FJ to only hear English, whatever you say, or in what langage you say it!

[Taro Toporific]

.... my professors about this, and they said it happens all the time, so they advise that before you just start speaking Japanese to a stranger, you have to get the listener prepared so they realize that what is coming out of your mouth is Japanese, not English. She suggested starting such conversations with an unmistakable Japanese signal, like "sumimasen ga.." or "etto.." or something like that.

Yep, that's always a good idea in Japan when speaking Japanese----After you say "etto.." or "arune..." always pause to let the Japanese brain reset to the frightening idea of an alien speaking their secret language. Then speak as fast as possible to blow them away.

Note: The larger and paler you are, the more Japanese will fail to believe you're speaking Japanese. Conversely, the smaller and darker you are the more the Japanese will understand you (unles you're AO). Deferential Japanese housewives who had have children understand me the best----drunk fisherman or contruction workers have no problems uderstanding gaijin-nihongo ----Todai professors with decades of dictionary-eigo study seldom understand my Japanese. Meh.

[maraboutslim]

You've never actually BEEN to Japan, right? Or perhaps you have, but you don't speak Japanese at all?

Lived there over six years in the 90s, published a magazine in Japanese, was the token gaijin in a few bands, been back several times since, speak Japanese as my "home language" here in California, etc... And apparently my Japanese is a lot better than yours because not once did I have any trouble being understood. (dude, you always jump to conclusions in your posts. you really need to remember who the other members are, or just give people the benefit of the doubt before you go off posting stuff).

Yes, even the most fluent gaijin can tell you many similar stories, it is quite common.

I never met any gaijin who told me that their decent Japanese was not understood or appreciated. And I certainly never experienced anything like that myself, be it in urban areas or rural areas in Tokyo, Kanagawa, Chiba, Nagano, Kyoto, wherever...

I spoke to my professors about this, and they said it happens all the time, so they advise that before you just start speaking Japanese to a stranger, you have to get the listener prepared so they realize that what is coming out of your mouth is Japanese, not English. She suggested starting such conversations with an unmistakable Japanese signal, like "sumimasen ga.." or "etto.." or something like that.

You've got to be kidding me. This is common sense. I think I'm starting to understand how some people could be having problems then! I can totally see how someone who doesn't understand that about the Japanese language will have trouble with people hearing the words coming out of their mouths as Japanese. But such people are not speaking "passable" Japanese if their speech is void of these conversational signals, certain body language, and so on. (BTW, it's "eeto" not "etto", one drags out the "e" not the "t").

This is a perfect example of the problem of learning Jpaanese from "professors" and not by experience in the culture. If one's Japanese is void of this sort of thing, he is in no way "fluent" even if he has passed the level 1 test! And there is no telling what else his/her language ability is missing if s/he hasn't even mastered the art of "anou..." One's accent is going to have a lot to do with it as well of course: for example, if Australians throw that damn "er" sound on to the end of any word that should end in "a" in Japanese like they do in English, they are going to have trouble...

The first week of any spoken Japanese class should cover anou, eeto, chotto, chotto ii, warui kedo, shitsurei, sumimasen, gomen, kudasai, (and gomen kudasai for that matter), kekko, ii desu (to accept and refuse), and so on...

[Taro Toporific]

I never met any gaijin who told me that their decent Japanese was not understood or appreciated. ...

Sorry, that's just wrong Slim---it's a standard observation. "Decent" Japanese is appreciated but often not understood---bad Japanese is better understood. :P

[Greji]

I never met any gaijin who told me that their decent Japanese was not understood or appreciated. ...

Sorry, that's just wrong Slim---it's a standard observation. "Decent" Japanese is appreciated but often not understood---bad Japanese is better understood. :P

It is also bad in some quarters to speak Japanese better than the normal gaijin. There are Japanese who believe that you are invading their "unique" cluture and privacy if you can communicate! Reference the infamous News Station case on Asahi TV with Kumi the asshole, saying that it is better if gaijins spoke only katagoto! Their favorite private comment to this if someone is reasonablt fluent, "kimouchi warui"!

[maraboutslim]

It is also bad in some quarters to speak Japanese better than the normal gaijin. There are Japanese who believe that you are invading their "unique" cluture and privacy if you can communicate! Reference the infamous News Station case on Asahi TV with Kumi the asshole, saying that it is better if gaijins spoke only katagoto! Their favorite private comment to this if someone is reasonablt fluent, "kimouchi warui"!

I've always felt that what they are really reacting to is the arrogance, not the language ability itself. And I personally found Kume-san's "gaijin wa nihongo ga katakoto no hou ga ii yo ne" comment to be funny, not insulting at all. But then I'm the type that was always annoyed by those gaijin tv talent types showing off their obscure rural dialects (and femine speech patterns and body language!).

After all, I think "katakoto" is what most Japanese speak! If one speaks in perfect text book Japanese all the time, he sounds silly. At least in my opinion.

And Taro, I guess I spend more time hanging around drunken construction workers (and the like) and housewives than university professor types. In fact, my world pretty much was housewives, club kids, indie rockers, blues music fans, surfers, and then a few gaijin - none of which ever told me stories of Japanese failing to realize they were being spoken to in Japanese.

[Charles]

..Deferential Japanese housewives who had have children understand me the best----drunk fisherman or contruction workers have no problems uderstanding gaijin-nihongo ----Todai professors with decades of dictionary-eigo study seldom understand my Japanese. Meh.

You know, come to think of it, I had an easier time making myself understood in Japanese with common housewives, drunken fishermen and laborers, and the worst trouble was with college educated E/J bilinguals. I never thought about it until you pointed it out just now.
But the worst troubles (aside from the strange 90 year old woman who ran away) came from a wife of a doctor, she was laying on the keigo so thick it was hard to keep up. I understand that this is one of those little cultural affectations expected of a doctor's wife.