Dubious Revelations: Japan Business & Culture

[Yokohammer]

It doesn't quite fit the "newbie reporter discovers Japan" mould, but this BBC article caught my eye this morning and caused my BS alarm to go into hyperdrive.

I wouldn't normally have mentioned it here, but my curiosity is aroused. I work with major Japanese corporations on a daily basis, but as an outsider so my view might be a little skewed. My last experience as an employee at a Japanese company ended a little more than 30 years ago. The Rip Van Winkle effect could be strong here in my little cocoon, so I'd like to ask the FGs what they think:

Why you don't give praise in Japan

I won't quote the article because I think you'll need to read the whole thing to form an opinion.

My opinion, short version, is that it's a very limited, oversimplified view ... and people are charging consulting fees for this?

Waddya think?

[wuchan]

A lot of that is very true, probably about 90%. The "no words for praise" is bullshit tho. The accounting story is VERY true but she didn't get into trouble for talking back to the boss, she got yelled at because she didn't make the numbers do what the boss wanted. Her boss probably got chewed out by his boss and he was looking for someone to blame. This is how things went down at Olympus, Toshiba and all the other companies with accounting scandals.


J-co has made a lot of improvements in recent years but many companies that do little or no international business tend to be very similar to this article especially ones where the union has infiltrated management.

[Samurai_Jerk]

A lot of that is very true, probably about 90%. The "no words for praise" is bullshit tho. The accounting story is VERY true but she didn't get into trouble for talking back to the boss, she got yelled at because she didn't make the numbers do what the boss wanted.

You weren't paying attention. The claim is there's no word for "feedback" in Japanese. I don't really buy that either but it's true that フィードバック is pretty commonly used. In this context feedback means evauation or assessment and there are certainly Japanese words for those. Also, the accountant's story wasn't her disagreeing with her boss. It was her disagreeing with her client. A junior anything insistently disagreeing with an executive-level client in front of everyone over drinks after work isn't going down too well anywhere in the world.

Yokohammer, I too think it's a limited oversimplified view which is being promoted by these consultants precisely so they can charge fees. I'd prefer to see people working in Japanese companies from staff to managment level critique the claims being made. That'd be really interesting.

I've been working for a Japanese company for nearly 7 years. However, it's a relatively young company (about 10+ years) founded by a guy who was educated abroad and only worked at non-Japanese companies before setting this one up so it's not typical. However, I don't know if any but the biggest most traditional Japanese companies (the Fujitsus, Mitsuis, etc.) have ever been typical. For example, was lifetime employment the standard for most people who didn't graudate from the best universities and get permanent positions in the best companies or jobs as civil servants? The only people I know personally or professionally who've been working for the same the places their whole lives are either in family businesses or the went straight from Todai to NTT as a new grad types.

[wuchan]

A lot of that is very true, probably about 90%. The "no words for praise" is bullshit tho. The accounting story is VERY true but she didn't get into trouble for talking back to the boss, she got yelled at because she didn't make the numbers do what the boss wanted.

You weren't paying attention. The claim is there's no word for "feedback" in Japanese. I don't really buy that either but it's true that フィードバック is pretty commonly used. In this context feedback means evauation or assessment and there are certainly Japanese words for those. Also, the accountant's story wasn't her disagreeing with her boss. It was her disagreeing with her client. A junior anything insistently disagreeing with an executive-level client in front of everyone over drinks after work isn't going down too well anywhere in the world.

Yokohammer, I too think it's a limited oversimplified view which is being promoted by these consultants precisely so they can charge fees. I'd prefer to see people working in Japanese companies from staff to managment level critique the claims being made. That'd be really interesting.

I've been working for a Japanese company for nearly 7 years. However, it's a relatively young company (about 10+ years) founded by a guy who was educated abroad and only worked at non-Japanese companies before setting this one up so it's not typical. However, I don't know if any but the biggest most traditional Japanese companies (the Fujitsus, Mitsuis, etc.) have ever been typical. For example, was lifetime employment the standard for most people who didn't graudate from the best universities and get permanent positions in the best companies or jobs as civil servants? The only people I know personally or professionally who've been working for the same the places their whole lives are either in family businesses or the went straight from Todai to NTT as a new grad types.

I know a lot of low level people that have worked for major japanese companies that never changed companies and never intend to. My father-in-law worked his entire life at a car dealer chain. Most of the people out here work at factories and usually only have a two year trade school degree. In tokyo things are different than the rest of the country. Out here in the sticks, the locals with full time employment never leave their company and can't get fired unless they really fuck up. At the big companies you mentioned the main office is usually run differently than the rest of the company nation wide.


I'm no expert, I'm just sharing my experience with the locals.

[Samurai_Jerk]

That makes sense. My experience is definitely Tokyo centric. One of the main reasons people in the sticks don't change jobs though is lack of opportunity combined with an unwillingness to relocate. People in Tokyo have options so they're probably more likely to change jobs. Technically it's just as hard to fire people in Tokyo as anywhere else but I think Tokyoites might be less likely to fight it because they can get something else.

[Wage Slave]

I'm very very far from expert too. I've never had a proper job at a big Japanese company. I share the misgivings about the picture painted here and the pecuniary motives behind promoting this type of knowledge.

Thinking like a foreign manager, you might be wondering if the answer is annual reviews. But one-on-one sit-downs with the boss to discuss performance are just not done, says Taro Fukuyama, a native of Japan and CEO of AnyPerk, a start-up offering services to improve employee happiness at work.

(snip)

Calling an employee into your office for that kind of meeting is likely to elicit panic.

Specifically on the subject of monitoring and feedback I have talked to a fairly senior manager at a large japanese multinational (aren't the majority of the biggies multinational) company in some detail on the topic. In that company, this statement is absolutely not true. They have an annual appraisals and target setting meeting. They have monthly monitoring meetings to assess progress. A manager that has achieved or over achieved is left in no doubt of his achievement and one that hasn't is under no illusions either.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Specifically on the subject of monitoring and feedback I have talked to a fairly senior manager at a large japanese multinational (aren't the majority of the biggies multinational) company in some detail on the topic. In that company, this statement is absolutely not true. They have an annual appraisals and target setting meeting. They have monthly monitoring meetings to assess progress. A manager that has achieved or over achieved is left in no doubt of his achievement and one that hasn't is under no illusions either.

That's the biggest issue I have with this article. Most of the other stuff is sort of cute YMMV anecdotes but the claim that companies don't give feedback in Japan unless you're fucking up is BS.

[matsuki]

The claim is there's no word for "feedback" in Japanese. I don't really buy that either but it's true that フィードバック is pretty commonly used. In this context feedback means evauation or assessment and there are certainly Japanese words for those.

Not only that but they "made up a new word?" Author is that densu?

Also, the accountant's story wasn't her disagreeing with her boss. It was her disagreeing with her client. A junior anything insistently disagreeing with an executive-level client in front of everyone over drinks after work isn't going down too well anywhere in the world.

THIS, dude is being a cunt while drinking. Unless he's actually making an actual request the work be redone or some shit, you let it slide and tell him how kakkoii his pink tie is.

Yokohammer, I too think it's a limited oversimplified view which is being promoted by these consultants precisely so they can charge fees.

Outdated and stubborn are definitely how I would describe Japanese business manager mentality but this is definitely taking the worst case and misinterpreted social scenarios and trying to pass it off as a daily grind deal that everyone has a deal with. No doubt the shit described happens and I'll laugh every time it does but I've received and seen praise being given plenty of times. I'd put more blame for inter office disputes, shit talking, etc on management who can't actually manage/motivate their employees than some sort of loss of trust (nakamahazure?) crap talked about here.

I'd prefer to see people working in Japanese companies from staff to managment level critique the claims being made. That'd be really interesting.

THIS

[Yokohammer]

Interesting. This sort of reinforces my opinion that a lot of "consultants" are just selling snake oil.

I was pretty sure I'd heard company people talking about annual or even quarterly evaluations. It's good to know that I'm not losing touch ... at least not entirely. I've seen and heard some legend-of-Japaneseness type crap go down over the years, but it seems to be confined to pockets of old-style change-resistant management that don't really represent the norm any more. If they ever did. They are certainly not driving any economic growth these days.

The idea that "if you don't hear from your boss you know you're doing OK" just struck me as totally wrong. In fact, in some cases I believe it can mean the opposite.

I was kind of surprised to see that sort of information/misinformation mash-up on a BBC news site.

[matsuki]

Yoko, from the stories I've heard, and there have been many, it's similar to what you describe but not just pockets, individuals that are "old fashioned." I'm sure it happens in most cultures....only here, people don't usually speak up when the "old fashioned" guy crosses the line. (gets tolerated or dismissed) That being said, the time's where the problems were serious enough, it was only made worse by both the victim and company reluctance to take any meaningful action.

[wuchan]

I was talking with a senior guy from a j-company in the airport lounge a few months back and he we telling me that he, and a bunch of other business leaders here, would really like to see a complete overhaul of the labor standards law. The problem is certain industries want to keep things the way they are to protect the senior staff from younger, better educated competition effectively keeping the good ol boys club intact. He went on to remind me that Japan is an extremely small country and the people at the top protect their position at all costs which, in his opinion, is why abenomics is such a joke.

[Wage Slave]

He went on to remind me that Japan is an extremely small country

By what metric is Japan an extremely small country?

[Samurai_Jerk]

He went on to remind me that Japan is an extremely small country

By what metric is Japan an extremely small country?

By whiney Japanese we're-perpetual-underdogs metrics. 10th largest population and 3rd largest economy be damned.

I don't buy the claim that cetain industries don't want to change to protect their senior staff. Just because you can fire people doesn't mean you have to. The old guys at the top will still be in charge and able to protect anyone they want. I also don't buy the argument that making it easier to fire people will magically improve the economy in Japan.

[matsuki]

He went on to remind me that Japan is an extremely small country

By what metric is Japan an extremely small country?

By whiney Japanese we're-perpetual-underdogs metrics. 10th largest population and 3rd largest economy be damned.

I keep hearing this shit when I point out to Japanese that many things here are insanely expensive. "That's just because Japan is a small country, smaller market!"

[wagyl]

Try Scandinavia or Oceania for insanely expensive. Here is within the limits of sanity but expensive if you want it to be, and pretty reasonably priced if you choose not to try to live the same lifestyle you have on the ranch back home.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Because Japan is an island country or small country are the go-to explanations for just about everything in Japan.

[Wage Slave]

Try Scandinavia or Oceania for insanely expensive. Here is within the limits of sanity but expensive if you want it to be, and pretty reasonably priced if you choose not to try to live the same lifestyle you have on the ranch back home.

Agreed. Especially if you include the cost of minor considerations such as housing and transport in your calculations. And you are right, expensive is often voluntary. You can take your car to a dealer for servicing/shaken and it will be expensive but within the limits of sanity. Or you can take it to a a range of chains and small places where it is very reasonably priced. Or you can buy an exotic car, take it to the dealer and revel in the fact you are a member of an exclusive club. And the same principle applies to just about everything else.

[Wage Slave]

Because Japan is an island country or small country are the go-to explanations for just about everything in Japan.

I reckon you hear it trotted out far far less these days though. I couldn't work out whether Wuchan was being ironic or not.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Because Japan is an island country or small country are the go-to explanations for just about everything in Japan.

I reckon you hear it trotted out far far less these days though. I couldn't work out whether Wuchan was being ironic or not.

I've heard the small country thing several times recently so maybe it's making a comeback.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Maybe not a question of nominal size, but rather one of being badly networked, linguistically challenged and having shitty relations with every neighbour and their dog. This makes Japan "small" in a different sense of "closed-mindedness". Results may be similar.

[matsuki]

Try Scandinavia or Oceania for insanely expensive. Here is within the limits of sanity but expensive if you want it to be, and pretty reasonably priced if you choose not to try to live the same lifestyle you have on the ranch back home.

Agreed. Especially if you include the cost of minor considerations such as housing and transport in your calculations. And you are right, expensive is often voluntary. You can take your car to a dealer for servicing/shaken and it will be expensive but within the limits of sanity. Or you can take it to a a range of chains and small places where it is very reasonably priced. Or you can buy an exotic car, take it to the dealer and revel in the fact you are a member of an exclusive club. And the same principle applies to just about everything else.

I get that it's not the most expensive and I'm definitely not the new car, dealer service type...but I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like I posted in the dog thread, $44US vs 15,000+ for the same bag of dog food?? There is just no excuse for that shit.

Maybe not a question of nominal size, but rather one of being badly networked, linguistically challenged and having shitty relations with every neighbour and their dog. This makes Japan "small" in a different sense of "closed-mindedness". Results may be similar.

[wagyl]

I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like I posted in the dog thread, $44US vs 15,000+ for the same bag of dog food?? There is just no excuse for that shit.

You are welcome to approach the manufacturer of the dog food to discuss becoming the local agent for their product, if you think that you can run the business and still offer a cheaper price to consumers. If you can convince the manufacturer that you can offer it to consumers cheaper, and that they would have greater sales volume, I am sure they would be interested to hear from you. And the same goes for any of their competitors.

[legion]

He went on to remind me that Japan is an extremely small country

By what metric is Japan an extremely small country?

By whiney Japanese we're-perpetual-underdogs metrics. 10th largest population and 3rd largest economy be damned.

I don't buy the claim that cetain industries don't want to change to protect their senior staff. Just because you can fire people doesn't mean you have to. The old guys at the top will still be in charge and able to protect anyone they want. I also don't buy the argument that making it easier to fire people will magically improve the economy in Japan.

Not being able to fire people easily is the only thing keeping the economy afloat. If you want to make your numbers by firing people you will enter a death spiral, if you are forced to innovate with the staff you have you will change with the times. Look at Panasonic's current journey.

That article started with one of those scene re-enactments, always a sign it will be highly subjective.

We were just asked to complete an online stress test, apparently all companies with over 50 employees have to do this, it is optional for the employee, mandatory for the company. The J-gov wants to know if companies are driving their workers to despair. I cried off on the excuse it was in Japanese and would cause me stress to wade through it.

Funny thing is our HR people are looking kind of glum these days, almost like they are getting beaten up by someone, I'm getting the feeling that high handed yakuza attitude from HR is a thing of the past.

You can fire people in Japan, I worked out how they do it, they send round a nasty email saying if you don't show up on time in the morning you will be subject to disciplinary action, the people who don't have much to do start skiving, they get fired. Maybe it only works in companies with a high jo-sama bo-chan ratio like mine.

From the Beeb

“Unlike elsewhere, you can’t just come in and expect to be accepted based on your past successes,” Whittle says. “It’s all about building trust, and it’s all about building relationships.”

I'm surprised people are paid money for this kind of superficial crap, where do I sign up?

[matsuki]

I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like I posted in the dog thread, $44US vs 15,000+ for the same bag of dog food?? There is just no excuse for that shit.

You are welcome to approach the manufacturer of the dog food to discuss becoming the local agent for their product, if you think that you can run the business and still offer a cheaper price to consumers. If you can convince the manufacturer that you can offer it to consumers cheaper, and that they would have greater sales volume, I am sure they would be interested to hear from you. And the same goes for any of their competitors.

Contacted them a few days ago....guessing they don't know how the pricing is here by the responses thus far.

[Samurai_Jerk]

“Unlike elsewhere, you can’t just come in and expect to be accepted based on your past successes,” Whittle says. “It’s all about building trust, and it’s all about building relationships.”

I'm surprised people are paid money for this kind of superficial crap, where do I sign up?

Are you trying to say that in the rest of the world you can't just walk into a company off the strength of your resume and start running shit without getting to know your new colleagues first?

[Yokohammer]

... People in Tokyo have options so they're probably more likely to change jobs. ...

The flip side of this is that employers in Tokyo probably feel that they have a larger pool of potential new employees to draw on, so are less likely to give a shit if someone leaves because of job dissatisfaction. Put another way, they are less likely to treat employees well, in a way that would make them want to stay. Inaka employers tend to treat their staff like family (with exceptions, of course).

[wuchan]

I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like I posted in the dog thread, $44US vs 15,000+ for the same bag of dog food?? There is just no excuse for that shit.

You are welcome to approach the manufacturer of the dog food to discuss becoming the local agent for their product, if you think that you can run the business and still offer a cheaper price to consumers. If you can convince the manufacturer that you can offer it to consumers cheaper, and that they would have greater sales volume, I am sure they would be interested to hear from you. And the same goes for any of their competitors.

Contacted them a few days ago....guessing they don't know how the pricing is here by the responses thus far.

10% import tax, international shipping, local shipping ( insanely expensive ), distributor cut, standard 40% store cut, and you have double the price or more depending the weight of the product.


I left out a few other things that inflate prices here like brokerage fee and the standard 2% trading companies here get.

[Samurai_Jerk]

local shipping ( insanely expensive )

A friend of mine imported a boat ($300,000 30 foot/10 meter cruiser) from Florida. The cost to get it from there to Tokyo via the Panama Canal was about the same as the cost for him to have it moved two kilometers by truck from the port to customs and back.

[Coligny]

local shipping ( insanely expensive )

A friend of mine imported a boat ($300,000 30 foot/10 meter cruiser) from Florida. The cost to get it from there to Tokyo via the Panama Canal was about the same as the cost for him to have it moved two kilometers by truck from the port to customs and back.

That's not exactly a japan thing...maritime transport is dirt cheap while oversize road transport is near insane...

But... orders from chinaland are usually with free shipping while anything here from the town next door has a 5-600 yen shipping fee at best...

[matsuki]

I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like I posted in the dog thread, $44US vs 15,000+ for the same bag of dog food?? There is just no excuse for that shit.

You are welcome to approach the manufacturer of the dog food to discuss becoming the local agent for their product, if you think that you can run the business and still offer a cheaper price to consumers. If you can convince the manufacturer that you can offer it to consumers cheaper, and that they would have greater sales volume, I am sure they would be interested to hear from you. And the same goes for any of their competitors.

Contacted them a few days ago....guessing they don't know how the pricing is here by the responses thus far.

10% import tax, international shipping, local shipping ( insanely expensive ), distributor cut, standard 40% store cut, and you have double the price or more depending the weight of the product.

I left out a few other things that inflate prices here like brokerage fee and the standard 2% trading companies here get.

Something like this, they're starting off at about 25-35% of retail. If they really put on the rapage, I expect something like 1.5 the retail cost in the origin country. Over 3X the cost is just insane.