Keeping PR

[gaijinpunch]

There's a lot of information out there on the internet, and from what I understand, most of it is wrong. GaijinPot has a thread from last year on the subject. The new system wasn't exactly in place, so we'll let them slide.

This seems to be a big question: "Can I leave Japan for an extended period and keep my PR?" The answer of course is yes. A better question though is, "Can I leave Japan for an extended period, keep my PR, and not get dinged for local taxes?" This is where the confusion comes in. Since taxes are based on your previous years income, it can take a while for them to come to some ridiculously low number. In the meantime, you'll be paying your monthly share. Well, billed for them anyway.

I'm not a pro on this matter, so jump in at any time. I'm about to be a nomad for a while b/c of various family affairs, business trips, and maybe a vacation. I've been told at immigration and the ward office is you fill out a forum stating you're moving abroad temporarily (business trips can easily last 2 years), so wish to be removed from your wards registrar, but you will keep you 住民票. Local taxes generated by the ward stop at that point. You no longer have an address in Japan. However, you still have your Juuminnhyou, which is your ticket to coming back. Does this sound right?

The kicker is the banks, b/c they are fucking assholes when it comes to wonky addresses. You can have your mail forwarded for a year... but after that, if the bank sends you something and it's returned, they will freeze your shit. You can extend your postal forwarding for another year again, but it MUST be in person (I can tell you this first hand... dick heads).

Anywho, I'm about to start this process. Does it sound like I'm talking out of my ass? My only worry is that Immigration and the Ward offices are so decoupled now, they may neither have a fucking clue.

[yanpa]

It sounds like you're clued-up on the potential pitfalls, which is a good start.

Which reminds me, I need to tell my bank about my new address ASAP, now I have a shiny new ZRC with an unambiguous address. (The merchant bankers send me home last time I tried because due to the new system the previous address identifier was no longer included on the ARC so the bank couldn't be sure if it was my home or work address ).

[gaijinpunch]

Yes, the bank thing is tricky part. Technically, I guess you're not supposed to have your banks w/o an address... even if you have a juuminhyou.

Anyway, I was assured at both immigration and the ward office. Immigration just said "if you're going to be gone longer than a year, get a re-entry permit".

[wagyl]

I've often wondered about this myself. One possible work around is if you have a trusted friend who will let you register at their address. It would need to be mutual trust, because if there are any problems with taxes all the nasty letters will be going to their address as well.

[J.A.F.O]

I actually don't know much about this subjuect, the pros and cons. But has anyone went after citizenship?

[Samurai_Jerk]

I actually don't know much about this subjuect, the pros and cons. But has anyone went after citizenship?

You're American, right? If you actually got J citizen would you give up US as required by the J government (though not something they can easily enforce). If so, that's when most of your problems would arise and those problems would all come from Uncle Sam.

[gaijinpunch]

I actually don't know much about this subjuect, the pros and cons. But has anyone went after citizenship?

You're American, right? If you actually got J citizen would you give up US as required by the J government (though not something they can easily enforce). If so, that's when most of your problems would arise and those problems would all come from Uncle Sam.

They can't enforce it at all. Your US passport does not belong to you, nor them. Thus, they cannot take it (even if you offer). All they can do is indian give your J-citizenship. Why anybody from the free world would want it over PR is far beyond my comprehension (unless you really think voting for PM will help)

[Yokohammer]

J-citizenship. That's a toughie.

Why would it be better than PR? Excellent question, and I don't have an answer, but I do have another question. Or two.

If you were here for the long term, as indicated by PR status, would it be advantageous to have the full spectrum of rights (make of them what you will) afforded to Japanese nationals? And would that be an advantage over the ability to get the heck out and go home if things got uncomfy?

Serious questions.

[wuchan]

the only benefits for citizenship is being able to vote or getting a public job (ministry, cop, firefighter, city hall etc...). Truth be told your vote won't make a difference and even if you were a citizen they probably still wouldn't give you a a job as a cop just based on your looks.

[wagyl]

The only other possible benefit from gaining nationality that I see, is that it solves one half of the issue that Gaijinpunch faces: you can still come back to Japan even if you are out of the country for longer than the reentry permit allows. In a strictly enforced prohibition on multiple nationality (if such a beast actually exists as a practical matter) there is the added disadvantage that it may become more difficult to go back to that other country after a long absence.

In my case: my mother would cry. And the benefits do not beat the inconveniences of applying for it, nor show enough benefits over the status quo.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Why anybody from the free world would want it over PR is far beyond my comprehension (unless you really think voting for PM will help)

If you're American and making very good money, it might be worth giving up for tax reasons.

[J.A.F.O]

If so, that's when most of your problems would arise and those problems would all come from Uncle Sam.

Most of my problems come from that crazy uncle anyways, but yea I see your point. Seriously thought about expating to Switzerland for a while... still may.

[Wibble]

A couple of things
The parking of the juminhyo for a PR out of the country sounds similar to the procedure for non-resident citizens. I know Japanese people heading on long term assignments used to try to leave before the end of December, so they didn't trigger local taxes for the next year. These are people that went away a while a go, no idea if this is still true. Equally some got stung for back health insurance payments for the period out of Japan, so there might be a procedure to make sure you don't have this nice surprise to come back to when you enter the system.

As said for trips over 1 year, you need a re-entry permit, you should get 5 years at a time as a PR. Also, make sure your zairyu or ARC card won't expire while you are out of the country.

If you've been in Japan over 5 years and so a permanent tax resident, would still you still need to have to file taxes in Japan? Or is a non-resident permanent resident also a non taxable permanent tax resident?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Or is a non-resident permanent resident also a non taxable permanent tax resident?

We need an exploding head smiley.

[omae mona]

the only benefits for citizenship is being able to vote or getting a public job (ministry, cop, firefighter, city hall etc...). Truth be told your vote won't make a difference and even if you were a citizen they probably still wouldn't give you a a job as a cop just based on your looks.

Have to disagree about those being the only benefits (though I agree with your "truth be told" part).

The "Permanent" in "permanent resident" is not permanent at all. The government can take it away, and they will do so if it suits them. The obvious ways to lose PR and get kicked out, that I can think of, are:
1) Get deported (e.g. for committing a serious crime)
2) Leaving country without required re-entry permits pertinent to your length of stay overseas.

Granted, the above are pretty unlikely for most people. But because of my ropponginarcotics.com business, I always thought I was at a bit of risk.

By contrast, they can't kick you out if you're a citizen, no matter what you do. I believe there is international law, or at least norms, that *strongly* discourage countries from creating stateless individuals.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

But because of my ropponginarcotics.com business, I always thought I was at a bit of risk.

Isn't every foreigner running that business? Or does that only apply when a Japanese is caught with contraband?

[J.A.F.O]

By contrast, they can't kick you out if you're a citizen, no matter what you do. I believe there is international law, or at least norms, that *strongly* discourage countries from creating stateless individuals.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.

Guess the powers that be want to make sure every one has a plantation to belong to.

[havill]

I actually don't know much about this subjuect, the pros and cons. But has anyone went after citizenship?

All they can do is indian give your J-citizenship. Why anybody from the free world would want it over PR is far beyond my comprehension (unless you really think voting for PM will help)

Quick nitpick: you don't vote for P.M. The party in power in the Diet does.

I don't know what the "indian give" means exactly, but it's kind of like a Catholic divorce: your J-nationality is "annulled" (in that before you never gave up your other nationalities when you could, your naturalization was discovered — after the fact — to have never really been successfully completed, and thus the annulment backdates as if they never granted nationality to you in the first place. This process is called "administrative denaturalization".

No, it's never occurred (yet) in Japan. It has occurred elsewhere, especially in the States (for the discovery of a concealed criminal record prior to naturalizing).

It's never occurred / been enforced in Japan because the statistically speaking the odds of it being abused are so small: the vast majority (>95%: Chinese and Koreans) of those who naturalize must give up their other nationalities PRIOR to the final step of Japanese naturalization. There are not many American born naturalized Japanese. Trust me. I think I know them all.

The whole not making anybody intentionally stateless thing is a U.N. declaration of human rights thing (Article 15), which says all humans have a right to a [one, not multiple] nationality.

Fun fact: after you complete your U.S. relinquishment of nationality paperwork, they backdate the date of "loss of nationality" to the day you naturalized to Japanese. So there's never a period "on paper" when a naturalized ex-American was a dual national.

Yes, I know what you're thinking: the I.R.S. has closed this loophole.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Quick nitpick: you don't vote for P.M.

I'll say...my girlfriend is a real PITA when that happens....

[havill]

the only benefits for citizenship is being able to vote or getting a public job (ministry, cop, firefighter, city hall etc...). Truth be told your vote won't make a difference and even if you were a citizen they probably still wouldn't give you a a job as a cop just based on your looks.

So there's a bit more than that, actually. "Public job" doesn't just mean a cop or firefighter. There are jobs which are subcontracted etc where nationality is a requirement due to the nature of the work (it affects the Japanese national public/policy and is funded with taxpayer money).

For example, I work on a quasi-government subcommittee that works on the standardization of the technology and systems that will be used for the Japanese national identification card (on the gov's roadmap for initial test deployment in 2015, but it's running late). One of the requirements to participate on the specification editing and tech design for that job is Japanese nationality — in addition to the proper technical and language credentials. †

They hired me. Despite my looks.

If they were going to DQ you for a police/firefighter/etc role, it would be because of your age (discrimination against age is not illegal in Japan) or your inability to pass the public servant tests. Those tests are not easy. If they were, everybody would want to be a public worker.

A more realistic "public worker" type role for an adult native English speaker would be a public school teacher. Again, what would keep you from getting in would not likely be the color of your skin or your origin ‡, but your ability to pass the tests and qualifications.

Those tests obviously assume a native command of Japanese (as in somebody that completed their lower and higher education in that language).

==

Aside from voting, there is one more thing Japanese nationals can do as plain old residents that affects democracy: while you're about as likely to be chosen as winning the lottery, being a national allows you to be a lay judge. You could be chosen to help decide if someone (Japanese or non-Japanese) literally gets the noose during a trial.

==

There are other perks for ex-Americans (such as not needing a visa to go to China and being able to vacation in Cuba), but they're too minor to be considered a factor.

† There are lots of jobs in the U.S. in tech which are for Americans only too. Just ask about 65% of those in IT that work in the Washington D.C. metro area. Or Edward Snowden.

‡ I've never heard of a documented non-anecdotal case where someone who was non-racially Japanese and qualified (age, language, passed the tests, proper educational background) and a naturalized national being refused a public worker job. Have you?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

For example, I work on a quasi-government subcommittee...

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Not a vegan are you?

[Russell]

Aside from voting, there is one more thing Japanese nationals can do as plain old residents that affects democracy: while you're about as likely to be chosen as winning the lottery, being a national allows you to be a lay judge. You could be chosen to help decide if someone (Japanese or non-Japanese) literally gets the noose during a trial.

I would not be looking forward to that.

Reminds me of the time I was selected for jury duty in the US, after having lived there for 1 year. I am not a US citizen, and still they selected me.

Fortunately, I already returned to Japan, so I could politely refuse.

[havill]

For example, I work on a quasi-government subcommittee...

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Not a vegan are you?

What? Is that an inside FG joke?

Anyway, if I didn't Love (capital L) almost all the food & drink in Japan (including all the very, very non-vegan stuff), I definitely wouldn't live here until death.

Now if you excuse me, you've made me hungry. Going to eat some whale.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

What? Is that an inside FG joke?

Sorry, I'm just trying to be a smart arse!
Hope you enjoy your dish of scientific research

Doubly sorry: just realized who you are. I hope you're not eating on company time....

[havill]

What? Is that an inside FG joke?

Sorry, I'm just trying to be a smart arse!
Hope you enjoy your dish of scientific research

Doubly sorry: just realized who you are. I hope you're not eating on company time....

No worries. I will cancel the PRISM request I just made to FG.

[yanpa]

For the paranoid out there, there is a SSL-enabled version of FG and the certificate's SHA1 fingerprint is: 0A:2F:3E:B9:43:11:4E:F3:E8:38:D8:14:33:EB:02:6F:50:D5:75:FA

(note: the truly paranoid should consider the possibility that the CA has provided a backdoor to the NSA or similar in the certificate chain)

[havill]

For the paranoid out there, there is a SSL-enabled version of FG and the certificate's SHA1 fingerprint is: 0A:2F:3E:B9:43:11:4E:F3:E8:38:D8:14:33:EB:02:6F:50:D5:75:FA

(note: the truly paranoid should consider the possibility that the CA has provided a backdoor to the NSA or similar in the certificate chain)

And for the more pragmatic out there, you should know that SSL does absolutely nothing to hide the actual domain/site you're visiting (www.fuckedgaijin.com).

In the founders' infinite wisdom, the choice of domain name (with the word "fuck" in it) will pretty much guarantee it gets highlighted/alerted to your sysadmin at work thanks to keyword filters.

If you use the https version of fucked gaijin, though, your work IT admins will not be able to tell if you're reading "keeping PR" or "J-Babe Appreciation Thread".

[GomiGirl]

For example, I work on a quasi-government subcommittee...

Manipulating all those Google algorithms.

[Coligny]

For the paranoid out there, there is a SSL-enabled version of FG and the certificate's SHA1 fingerprint is: 0A:2F:3E:B9:43:11:4E:F3:E8:38:D8:14:33:EB:02:6F:50:D5:75:FA

(note: the truly paranoid should consider the possibility that the CA has provided a backdoor to the NSA or similar in the certificate chain)

And for the more pragmatic out there, you should know that SSL does absolutely nothing to hide the actual domain/site you're visiting (http://www.fuckedgaijin.com).

In the founders' infinite wisdom, the choice of domain name (with the word "fuck" in it) will pretty much guarantee it gets highlighted/alerted to your sysadmin at work thanks to keyword filters.

If you use the https version of fucked gaijin, though, your work IT admins will not be able to tell if you're reading "keeping PR" or "J-Babe Appreciation Thread".

Dere is also fuckedgaijin.jp... .net and .org

But aside from man in the middle eavesdropping, the whole concept of using ssl to post in a public forum feels a bit weird...

[Coligny]

What? Is that an inside FG joke?

Sorry, I'm just trying to be a smart arse!
Hope you enjoy your dish of scientific research

Doubly sorry: just realized who you are. I hope you're not eating on company time....

Sidenote... Iz sir Havil like famous and shit like Paris Hilton ? Does he have a leaked seks tape on the net ?