Tohoku Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear Disaster!!!

[cstaylor]

At Okawa Elementary, another issue is trust.

Parents are frustrated at the lack of an explanation for its tragedy, when other schools nearby were also heavily damaged but had no deaths. A month after the disaster, relatives of the deceased still gather near the city's wreckage to mourn and peer into trucks that drive by with recovered bodies to check for their children.

According to city and school officials, teachers told students to get under their desks when the earthquake hit, then led them outside to the playground, as they had been trained. The next step was to seek higher ground, but fallen trees blocked the way up a steep mountain, so after debating for several minutes they started heading toward an elevated bridge a short distance away.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/04/13/world/asia/AP-AS-Japan-Earthquake-Schools.html?ref=global-home

[ichigo partygirl]

Gawker again has some good reporting on the Scientology push in Japan.
If you visit the site you can see applications for people to apply for 'Emergency grants' from the church [Gawker]

Why does this make my skin crawl so much?

[matsuki]

ick...aren't there enough cults....err religions here already?

[Mike Oxlong]

[matsuki]

Yep, only way to prevent it getting out is to destroy it

[Coligny]

It's not only JA you have to beware of...

Aeon sells food against a directive not to

guys...

TOLD YOU SO...[size=84]
Greed is moar dangerous than the puking power plant.
[/SIZE]

[matsuki]

Greed is moar dangerous than the puking power plant.

...and when they join forces:nihonjin:

[Coligny]

:shock:
Holy shit....I can remember the days on FG when all anybody talked about was schoolgirl panty vending machines and goats that Greji fucked. Now, we're dominated by nuclear physics. And who said the Internet dumbed people down? (Thank God I'm a stalwart for the old days!!!)

Yup, and all statements are backed by quotes from respectabul sources... We're the fooking wikipedia of nukular disaster...

(with -still- the occasionnal goat-pr0n to entertain some old timers...)

[AML]

Today was supposed to be a vacation day.



Can you explain how you arrived at this conclusion?

Are you saying that prolonged exposure to higher than normal levels of radiation have no effect on the human body?

[Takechanpoo]

what the heck is this gaijin dotard?
[YThq]dnb6-uoupj8[/YThq]
Robert Geller, professor of Tokyo Univ.

[matsuki]

Yup, and all statements are backed by quotes from respectabul sources... We're the fooking wikipedia of nukular disaster...

(with -still- the occasionnal goat-pr0n to entertain some old timers...)

Greji may get some pleasure from this radiation after all.

[Takechanpoo]

[Yokohammer]

The latest tsunami health threat: asbestos.

Yup, asbestos. Lots of old buildings with lots of asbestos in 'em were chewed up and spat out by the wave, so they're now going around measuring airborne asbestos to see if there's any serious danger.

Didn't see that one coming.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

what the heck is this gaijin dotard?
[YThq]dnb6-uoupj8[/YThq]
Robert Geller, professor of Tokyo Univ.

He's not that charlatan that bends spoons and befriends Michael Jacksons, is he?

[Mulboyne]

[omae mona]

guys...

TOLD YOU SO...[size=84]
Greed is moar dangerous than the puking power plant.
[/SIZE]

Folks, the exaggerations and conspiracy theories really don't help anybody.

Can I point out a few things from the news article, and common sense?

1. The problem was not serious enough to merit more than a prefectural government request for voluntary restraint in selling the items until April 4th. Then the government actually issued a ban on shipping (not a ban on buying or selling in stores, mind you). Aeon had almost certainly purchased the products before the ban (admittedly, sloppy work anyway), and they only sold it in their stores for 2 days after the official ban, until they noticed the problem.
2. The radiation in the lettuce was apparently lower than safety limits anyway.
3. You are exposed to bigger health risks from stuff you get in the supermarket all the time, due to imperfect procedures in the production and distribution chain. Why is it that when a tiny snafu happens involving the word "radiation", it's suddenly an evil corporate conspiracy?

This was a tiny, harmless administrative screw-up. It's part of growing pains as the shipment bans are just getting started, and firms like Aeon are figuring out how to change their procedures. It looks like Aeon admitted their mistake totally voluntarily after they noticed the mistake. How much do you think they can earn on the mark-up on lettuce anyway? Why would they risk the massive loss of revenues due to bad PR to begin with, and then why would they admit to the sales voluntarily, if they had some evil plan to sell poison lettuce?

Even if this continues to happen accidentally (or even intentionally, for the conspiracy theorists out there), and even if it happens on food that actually is over the limit, let's keep it in perspective. Radiation is not like the AIDS virus. Eating a bit of food that exceeded the safety limits slightly is not going to raise your cancer risk one iota.

[omae mona]

Are you saying that prolonged exposure to higher than normal levels of radiation have no effect on the human body?

I'm not going to put words in Damn Name's mouth. I doubt he was making such an extreme generalization. But your question and implication is extremely silly.

Don't you realize effects on the human body have to do with the amount of radiation? The vagueness of the wording in your question makes me think maybe you aren't aware of this. "Higher than normal" could mean 10% higher, 4 times higher, 100 times higher, or 10000 times higher. And I have no idea what period of time you mean when you say "prolonged" (a day? a year?)

Prediction of health risks due to radiation is a matter of well researched, peer-reviewed science based on numbers and calculations. Radiation is not a vague abstract concept, like "evil" or "wa". It is a well-understood scientific phenomenon.

So I am guessing that Damn Name's point is that prolonged exposure to the specific level of radiation you're discussing (namely, people living close to the plant but outside the evacuation zone) does, indeed, have no effect on the human body. Where are you getting the idea that it would cause cancer? It sounds like crazy made-up Imaginary Science to me given that all experts say it's not the case (except some dude, in a beret, with no training in this field) . Are you aware of the radiation levels in those areas, and are you aware of the amounts of radiation needed to raise your cancer risk?

[AML]

I'm not going to put words in Damn Name's mouth. I doubt he was making such an extreme generalization. But your question and implication is extremely silly.

Don't you realize effects on the human body have to do with the amount of radiation? The vagueness of the wording in your question makes me think maybe you aren't aware of this. "Higher than normal" could mean 10% higher, 4 times higher, 100 times higher, or 10000 times higher. And I have no idea what period of time you mean when you say "prolonged" (a day? a year?)

Prediction of health risks due to radiation is a matter of well researched, peer-reviewed science based on numbers and calculations. Radiation is not a vague abstract concept, like "evil" or "wa". It is a well-understood scientific phenomenon.

So I am guessing that Damn Name's point is that prolonged exposure to the specific level of radiation you're discussing (namely, people living close to the plant but outside the evacuation zone) does, indeed, have no effect on the human body. Where are you getting the idea that it would cause cancer? It sounds like crazy made-up Imaginary Science to me given that all experts say it's not the case (except some dude, in a beret, with no training in this field) . Are you aware of the radiation levels in those areas, and are you aware of the amounts of radiation needed to raise your cancer risk?

His post was a little condescending. Everyone keeps saying that the risk is so damn low. But is it really? The levels near and around the plant are quite high are they not? And radiation can get into food and water can it not?

So is it too far fetched to suggest that if such food or water were ingested that it could lead to medical problems? (cancer or other)

My point was that if people do start to develop health issues related to the plant, will Tepco take responsibility?

[Coligny]

Folks, the exaggerations and conspiracy theories really don't help anybody.

None of this in what I said, I stated that in this country you can't trust anybody for food safety, backed with previous example. Then we have this screw up, whatever the level is.

We know that apologists have switched from powerplant are safe to radioactiv waste are perfectly safe to eat. But don't go telling those that don't drink that wine they are conspiracy theorist. When you speak about something that is just... happenning, over and over again... it's no longer a theory... Dangerous amount of radiation or not, it was not supposed to be sold, but was sold, end of the story. In these conditions, when you can't distinguish good from bad, you soon have to realise that everything have to be treated as bad until proven good. Yes it's overkill lab safety... but it's just overkill toward the health risk, not toward the distribution reliability risk.

[Mulboyne]

[Coligny]

[Mulboyne]

If you want to hear/read what Michio Kaku has been saying lately:

Here

[Mulboyne]

Australia's Prime Minister Julia Gillard will become the first foreign head of state to visit the disaster area during a visit to Japan. She plans to go to Minami Sanriku on the 22nd April.

Source (Japanese)

[damn name]

His post was a little condescending. Everyone keeps saying that the risk is so damn low. But is it really? The levels near and around the plant are quite high are they not? And radiation can get into food and water can it not?

So is it too far fetched to suggest that if such food or water were ingested that it could lead to medical problems? (cancer or other)

My point was that if people do start to develop health issues related to the plant, will Tepco take responsibility?

There was nothing condescending. I asked how arrived at your conclusion. You said, "It has to be asked tho, eventually people who live closer to the plant will develop symptoms like cancer." (Emphasis mine)

That's a declarative sentence with a conclusion . You didn't say if, you said will. I don't know how far "closer to the plant" is. I don't understand the idea of "symptoms like cancer." The sentence makes no sense to me.

You say above, "The levels near and around the plant..." How far is "near and around?" You're using loose and imprecise language. No one is living in areas where their total exposure is known to cause cancer. The people working at the plant are rotated out after reaching their exposure limit. If you want to use the Chernobyl analogy, the difference is that children were still playing outdoors at Chernobyl, and no one had been evacuated from the immediate area (5 km) of the plant even after two days of exposure to levels that are proven to cause elevated risks of cancer, but even worse, cause thyroid cancer in children and birth defects to unborn children being carried at the time.

Japan evacuated people quickly.

Here are the levels at the gates of the plant: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110413e8.pdf

No one is living at the plant gate. No one is living in an area where their exposure to date is recognized by any medical body as causing an increase in the risk of getting cancer. The evacuation area is being modified before people could be exposed to enough to cause increased risks. The exposure limits being used are based on continuous exposure to the same amount for a year.

Yes, food and water can be contaminated. The limits that Japan uses for maximum yearly exposure are half what the rest of the world uses. In some cases, the same vegetables being pulled from distribution in Japan would not be above the limit in Europe or the U.S.

Dosages, concentrations of contamination and exposure, plus the conversions of units used in each, are complicated and variable. It's not as simple as some people think. My wife's radiation therapy for cancer exposed her to enough to kill thousands of people, but it didn't. She's fine. You have to be careful about keeping radiation and contamination discussions in context.

"My point was that if people do start to develop health issues related to the plant, will Tepco take responsibility?" (Emphasis mine)

I don't have an answer to the question you're posing now. It's a different question. I never would have replied if you had asked that question, since I don't think anyone can answer it.

[omae mona]

None of this in what I said, I stated that in this country you can't trust anybody for food safety, backed with previous example.

Coligny, I couldn't find your example (sorry about that). But anyway, providing one example and jumping to the conclusion "you can't trust anybody for food safety" is exactly what I would call an exaggeration or conspiracy theory. Come on, I know you don't really believe that. You'd be growing your own vegetables by now.

Then we have this screw up, whatever the level is.

As soon as somebody says "whatever the level is" I have a hard time taking the concerns seriously. The level makes all the difference. As many people have pointed out, there is radiation around us all the time. And there are other daily risks we face that are much, much worse than trivial amounts of radiation contamination (and again, let me point out, what Aeon actually sold was well within legal limits anyway).

We know that apologists have switched from powerplant are safe to radioactiv waste are perfectly safe to eat. But don't go telling those that don't drink that wine they are conspiracy theorist. When you speak about something that is just... happening, over and over again... it's no longer a theory... Dangerous amount of radiation or not, it was not supposed to be sold, but was sold, end of the story. In these conditions, when you can't distinguish good from bad, you soon have to realise that everything have to be treated as bad until proven good. Yes it's overkill lab safety... but it's just overkill toward the health risk, not toward the distribution reliability risk.

Coligny, I am sorry to say this, but if you think that until now you have been living in a society where every safety rule was followed perfectly, and you have never been exposed to any health risk, then you have been deluding yourself badly. I am not saying it was OK for Aeon to make this mistake. I am saying that we live in an imperfect world. Bigger mistakes than this Aeon lettuce story, with much bigger effects on you, happen all the time. You just aren't aware of them because they are not surrounded by all the "radiation" hype.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I am sorry to say this, but if you think that until now you have been living in a society where every safety rule was followed perfectly, and you have never been exposed to any health risk, then you have been deluding yourself badly.

Holy shite! You mean that the burger I ate this morning contained meat that came from a cow that hadn't been euthanized in a beautiful room with psychadelic lights and to the accompaniment of a soundtrack featuring Peer Gynt and the Pastroral Symphony like what happened with Edward G. Robinson in Soylent Green?

What is this world coming to?

[AML]

There was nothing condescending. I asked how arrived at your conclusion. You said, "It has to be asked tho, eventually people who live closer to the plant will develop symptoms like cancer." (Emphasis mine)

That's a declarative sentence with a conclusion . You didn't say if, you said will. I don't know how far "closer to the plant" is. I don't understand the idea of "symptoms like cancer." The sentence makes no sense to me.

You say above, "The levels near and around the plant..." How far is "near and around?" You're using loose and imprecise language. No one is living in areas where their total exposure is known to cause cancer. The people working at the plant are rotated out after reaching their exposure limit. If you want to use the Chernobyl analogy, the difference is that children were still playing outdoors at Chernobyl, and no one had been evacuated from the immediate area (5 km) of the plant even after two days of exposure to levels that are proven to cause elevated risks of cancer, but even worse, cause thyroid cancer in children and birth defects to unborn children being carried at the time.

Japan evacuated people quickly.

Here are the levels at the gates of the plant: http://www.tepco.co.jp/en/press/corp-com/release/betu11_e/images/110413e8.pdf

No one is living at the plant gate. No one is living in an area where their exposure to date is recognized by any medical body as causing an increase in the risk of getting cancer. The evacuation area is being modified before people could be exposed to enough to cause increased risks. The exposure limits being used are based on continuous exposure to the same amount for a year.

Yes, food and water can be contaminated. The limits that Japan uses for maximum yearly exposure are half what the rest of the world uses. In some cases, the same vegetables being pulled from distribution in Japan would not be above the limit in Europe or the U.S.

Dosages, concentrations of contamination and exposure, plus the conversions of units used in each, are complicated and variable. It's not as simple as some people think. My wife's radiation therapy for cancer exposed her to enough to kill thousands of people, but it didn't. She's fine. You have to be careful about keeping radiation and contamination discussions in context.

"My point was that if people do start to develop health issues related to the plant, will Tepco take responsibility?" (Emphasis mine)

I don't have an answer to the question you're posing now. It's a different question. I never would have replied if you had asked that question, since I don't think anyone can answer it.

Wow, condescend much?

Your posts are very informative and obviously a lot of work goes into them. I think you looked into my post way too much.

I think most people get what im talking about, which is: will tepco take responsibility if people develop symptoms?

Thats what I was asking. (your acting like it isnt even a remote possibility)

Sorry if my wording wasn't up to your standards.

[cstaylor]

And there are other daily risks we face that are much, much worse than trivial amounts of radiation contamination

True. Dioxin comes to mind.

(and again, let me point out, what Aeon actually sold was well within legal limits anyway).

I think the point that Coligny and some of us are making is that Aeon didn't know if it was dangerous or not when they sold it. That's the fear: that potentially dangerous food enters the market, and there are no real systems in place to prevent its sale. Compared with England's handling of hoof-and-mouth disease, where they destroy the lifestock...

[Typhoon]

If you want to hear/read what Michio Kaku has been saying lately:

Nope.

[Coligny]

Coligny, I couldn't find your example (sorry about that). But anyway, providing one example and jumping to the conclusion "you can't trust anybody for food safety" is exactly what I would call an exaggeration or conspiracy theory. Come on, I know you don't really believe that. You'd be growing your own vegetables by now.

For the umptennth time: Tainted rice scandal, building with fake quake resistance certificate and all the other case were consumer safety was placed after company reputation. It's not ONE case, it's a nationnal "F.U." behaviour.

As soon as somebody says "whatever the level is" I have a hard time taking the concerns seriously. The level makes all the difference. As many people have pointed out, there is radiation around us all the time. And there are other daily risks we face that are much, much worse than trivial amounts of radiation contamination (and again, let me point out, what Aeon actually sold was well within legal limits anyway).

I say whatever the limit because it's not the matter. The matter is that it was requested not to be sold, was sold and after the fact they came with apology and "won't do it again" attitude. So I don't give a frack aboot the level of radiation or if it is lethal or below the usual background, that's not the point. The point is they can't follow a rule and hide behind administrative mishaps. It's like when you say to junkies not to share syringe. It's a totally black and white case, they did it or didn't do as requested. Yes them lettuces were certainly harmless, if Aeon were the only one to screwup. But if 1 see they can get away with it, others will follow and you will end up with multiple source of harmless radiation adding them to one another until the point were things might get a bit too close to the already volatyl safety limit.

Coligny, I am sorry to say this, but if you think that until now you have been living in a society where every safety rule was followed perfectly, and you have never been exposed to any health risk, then you have been deluding yourself badly. I am not saying it was OK for Aeon to make this mistake. I am saying that we live in an imperfect world. Bigger mistakes than this Aeon lettuce story, with much bigger effects on you, happen all the time. You just aren't aware of them because they are not surrounded by all the "radiation" hype.

Oh, that's ok then. Since Daiichi is shitting itself into the sea, I can stop wearing a seatbelt since it's a much smaller problem in the great scheme of things.
And stop focusing on the "radiation hype" motto. There is a radiation problem. Yes there are people overexagerating, part of them flew away already. But it can stay small only if rules are followed, it can grow big if everyone continue to screwup like this. And YES I think most of the time rules are followed, the other times either you get accident, or you get lucky and there was a pilot rule saying that those counting on luck usually don't make it untill the end of the war.