Tohoku Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear Disaster!!!

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Chernobyl, Fukushima, how to clean this crap. This article extract from the french newspaper Le Monde, about Chernobyl new sarcophagus, gives us some details.
Courtesy of me, myself and I. Intelligible english with the help of google translate.

Great job!

I suppose one way we could get out of this mess is give everybody a fridge...

[Coligny]

/lame

[canman]

I've been reading a lot of other sites concerning the possible shortage of electricity this coming summer, and how the power companies are lobbying hard to get the nuclear reactors back up and running, and I have found two main themes.
One, don't start the nuclear power plants up again, the gov't and the power companies are corrupt and can't be trusted. I have no problem with this attitude, as I thinbk most people would subscribe to this thinking.
But the other theme I keep seeing occur is that the people of Japan have to suck it up and suffer through whatever comes their way this year, companies have to bear whatever increases are passed onto them, and shut down if they can't afford these increases.
I just feel that a really heavy burden is being thrust on the people of Japan, even though they are not guilty of anything.
I wonder how many people posting on Japan Today or Gaijin Pot are really living and working in Japan, and do they really know how tough it can get in the summer months, with very little relief.
I see posters talking about how rolling black outs or brown outs wouldn't be such a hardship, as many developing countries suffer these all the time. But this is not a developing country, it is the world's 3rd largest economy(for now), and it would spell disaster if these conditions came to pass.
I know some disagree with my opinion to start a few of the safest nuclear power plants, but I feel like we are playing a dangerous game to see if this summer power consumption exceeds capacity or not.

[Coligny]

I've been reading a lot of other sites concerning the possible shortage of electricity this coming summer, and how the power companies are lobbying hard to get the nuclear reactors back up and running, and I have found two main themes.
One, don't start the nuclear power plants up again, the gov't and the power companies are corrupt and can't be trusted. I have no problem with this attitude, as I thinbk most people would subscribe to this thinking.
But the other theme I keep seeing occur is that the people of Japan have to suck it up and suffer through whatever comes their way this year, companies have to bear whatever increases are passed onto them, and shut down if they can't afford these increases.
I just feel that a really heavy burden is being thrust on the people of Japan, even though they are not guilty of anything.
I wonder how many people posting on Japan Today or Gaijin Pot are really living and working in Japan, and do they really know how tough it can get in the summer months, with very little relief.
I see posters talking about how rolling black outs or brown outs wouldn't be such a hardship, as many developing countries suffer these all the time. But this is not a developing country, it is the world's 3rd largest economy(for now), and it would spell disaster if these conditions came to pass.
I know some disagree with my opinion to start a few of the safest nuclear power plants, but I feel like we are playing a dangerous game to see if this summer power consumption exceeds capacity or not.

woooaaa... not so fast champ...

In a democracy corruption and incompetence happens either when everybody profit the crime or when people are too busy pretending not to see anything rather than getting involved.

Sure acting up against will probably make you miss your daily TV show but if you claim for a god given right not to give a fuck, don't be too surprised if you get splattered when the shit hit the fan.
When you read this kind of things: "Tsuruga Nuke Plant Reactor 2 May Have Been Sitting on Top of Active Fault All These Years"You really wonder why everybody is pissed at the Iranians for their nuclear research that might one day be dangerous and nobody do anything against the japanese nukular program which is a clear and present danger -now-.


As they say, spare the rod, spoil the child. Reliying on unchecked unreliable technology for years, ignorings all the warning and misdeeds, then coming back crying when things blow up... That's starting to make way to much to trigger any sympathy...


Yes, summer will be fucking hot... It's not new in Japan. But between killing a few japanese because they can't stand their own weather or risking to make the planet inhabitable because those lecturing pompous clowns are monkeying with lethal technology... I'd say... good bye grand'ma... at least won't have to pay your pension anymore...


That might make them understand the lesson... even when you spent all your energy not giving a flying fuck what your governement and companies are doing it might one day or another come back to bite you in the ass.


Check France and Germany, even if the powerplants are managed responsibly there, you can't move a train of nuclear material without having to litterally scrap people of the railtracks hoping they are not chained too strongly.

[MrUltimateGaijin]

I just feel that a really heavy burden is being thrust on the people of Japan, even though they are not guilty of anything.
.

They are guilty of failure. Can any other people be said to have failed at democracy? Even when the problems were shown to them?

Government misplaces a decade, "we better vote for them again, they have experience and will tell us what to do."

Government responds hopelessly to a large earthquake, "we better vote for them again, they have experience and will tell us what to do."

Long term incompetence causes criticality incident that kills two people, "we better vote for them again, they have experience and will tell us what to do."

The only way the japanese people can be considered not guilty is if you accept that they simply aren't capable of helping themselves.

[Russell]

They are guilty of failure. Can any other people be said to have failed at democracy? Even when the problems were shown to them?

Government misplaces a decade, "we better vote for them again, they have experience and will tell us what to do."

Government responds hopelessly to a large earthquake, "we better vote for them again, they have experience and will tell us what to do."

Long term incompetence causes criticality incident that kills two people, "we better vote for them again, they have experience and will tell us what to do."

The only way the japanese people can be considered not guilty is if you accept that they simply aren't capable of helping themselves.

I agree with the gist of what you are saying, but there is a problem. The Japanese people voted the incompetents (LDP) out, only to discover that their replacement (DPJ) is hardly any better. Hell, tell me one politician or political party in Japan that is competent. In the end, of course, that is the responsibility of the Japanese people too, but I always wonder why it has come to this. I know the situation in the Netherlands is pretty much fornicated up too, but at least the population expects from political parties that they show some realism when it comes to financial planning etc.

[dimwit]

woooaaa... not so fast champ...

Yes, summer will be fucking hot... It's not new in Japan. But between killing a few japanese because they can't stand their own weather or risking to make the planet inhabitable because those lecturing pompous clowns are monkeying with lethal technology... I'd say... good bye grand'ma... at least won't have to pay your pension anymore...

That might make them understand the lesson... even when you spent all your energy not giving a flying fuck what your governement and companies are doing it might one day or another come back to bite you in the ass.

Check France and Germany, even if the powerplants are managed responsibly there, you can't move a train of nuclear material without having to litterally scrap people of the railtracks hoping they are not chained too strongly.

While I agree that the utilities in Japan have shown lax safety standards and this needs to be addressed, the problem really comes down to what will happen if there are blackout this summer. In Kansai with a 16% shortfall of power, that appears to be almost a certainty. It is question risk assessment. Should there be a blackout it will not result in a few but rather hundreds or perhaps thousands of dead because such a blackout will occur during a period of very high temperatures (you might recall what happened in France in 2003 when 15,00 people died); should there be an earthquake under Fukai there is a slight possiblity of damage to the plants (there certainly will not be a tsunami). The magnitude of earthquakes on the Sea of Japan is and has been much smaller than on the Pacific side largely because it is not sitting on a plate bourdary. The likelihood of the type of damage that would result in external leakage of radiation at Fukai is really really really remote.

The blog that you are quoting is very disingenuous in failing to point out that Fukushima was largely the result of a tsunami and poor preparedness for that eventuality. This is not an issue on the Sea of Japan side.

[Coligny]

I agree with the gist of what you are saying, but there is a problem. The Japanese people voted the incompetents (LDP) out, only to discover that their replacement (DPJ) is hardly any better. Hell, tell me one politician or political party in Japan that is competent. In the end, of course, that is the responsibility of the Japanese people too, but I always wonder why it has come to this. I know the situation in the Netherlands is pretty much fornicated up too, but at least the population expects from political parties that they show some realism when it comes to financial planning etc.

You don't really seems familiar with the concept of democracy...

Usually... if party 1 is as bad as party 2 you create a 3rd party with people who have a brain. If these don't get elected, then everybody deserve to eat the turd sandwich.

When you don't even go as far as creating a real opposition force... then...

[Russell]

While I agree that the utilities in Japan have shown lax safety standards and this needs to be addressed, the problem really comes down to what will happen if there are blackout this summer. In Kansai with a 16% shortfall of power, that appears to be almost a certainty. It is question risk assessment. Should there be a blackout it will not result in a few but rather hundreds or perhaps thousands of dead because such a blackout will occur during a period of very high temperatures (you might recall what happened in France in 2003 when 15,00 people died)]
One reactor is older than 40 years, and thus should be decomissioned. The other reactor sits right on a fault.

Your attempts to reason away the risks based on probability theory and assumptions is irresponsible in light of Mike's post http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showpost.php?p=300370&postcount=3686 .

But there is also another important lesson to be learned, and it applies to all operating nuclear facilities around the world: If you have to assume something, then you are not prepared.

[Coligny]

The blog that you are quoting is very disingenuous in failing to point out that Fukushima was largely the result of a tsunami and poor preparedness for that eventuality. This is not an issue on the Sea of Japan side.

New reports shows that Fukushima was getting fubared before the tsunami hit it. Stop rewritting history then narrowing it down to what element if distorted enough might fit your argumentation.

THE BLOG POST I QUOTE STATE THAT REACTOR #2 AT TSURUGA IS RIGHT OVER A FAULT LINE... YOU CALL THAT DISINGENUOUS ?
THEY CAN'T EVEN CALL IT ILLEGAL SINCE:

The guideline for seismic design by the national government does not expect having an important facility of a nuclear power plant right above an active fault.

IT'S SO DOWNRIGHT INSANE THAT IT NOT EVEN A POSSIBILITY THAT WAS BEING CONSIDERED... (even if with Hamaoka that seems to be the 2nd excessiveley wrongly placed plant...)

SO 1- facts have shown that japanese plant can't take a distant earthquake (Daiichi and Daini)
2- Anyway they are not supposed to resist a quake if they are right on top of it...

[Russell]

New reports shows that Fukushima was getting fubared before the tsunami hit it. Stop rewritting history then narrowing it down to what element if distorted enough might fit your argumentation.

THE BLOG POST I QUOTE STATE THAT REACTOR #2 AT TSURUGA IS RIGHT OVER A FAULT LINE... YOU CALL THAT DISINGENUOUS ?
THEY CAN'T EVEN CALL IT ILLEGAL SINCE:

IT'S SO DOWNRIGHT INSANE THAT IT NOT EVEN A POSSIBILITY THAT WAS BEING CONSIDERED... (even if with Hamaoka that seems to be the 2nd excessiveley wrongly placed plant...)

SO 1- facts have shown that japanese plant can't take a distant earthquake (Daiichi and Daini)
2- Anyway they are not supposed to resist a quake if they are right on top of it...

Then there is of course also the delicate point that the Fukui reactors are quite near to Japan's biggest drinking water reservoir: Lake Biwa.

[Coligny]

Then there is of course also the delicate point that the Fukui reactors are quite near to Japan's biggest drinking water reservoir: Lake Biwa.

FREE CLEAN UNSALTED COOLING WATER !!! YEAH !!!

[dimwit]

One reactor is older than 40 years, and thus should be decomissioned. The other reactor sits right on a fault.

Your attempts to reason away the risks based on probability theory and assumptions is irresponsible in light of Mike's post http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showpost.php?p=300370&postcount=3686 .

As far as Tsuraga is concerned, I don't have any issue with that plant being shut down. The fault is question hasn't ruptured in historic times, so calling it active is a question, but lying directly on top does impose some risk.

[cstaylor]

While they're mucking around with the electrical system, please move everything to 60Hz so we can purchase all of western Japan's electricity. It would push TEPCO to rethink their 20% price hike.

[Coligny]

Little document to shut up those who gleefully claim that there was only few death because of Chernobyl...

http://www.thenation.com/blog/167593/legacy-chernobyl

Sure... on technicalities they might be right... But since they use this argument to claim that coal is much more dangerous...

[Coligny]

While they're mucking around with the electrical system, please move everything to 60Hz so we can purchase all of western Japan's electricity. It would push TEPCO to rethink their 20% price hike.

Tssss... that's the magic of the marketplace...

You're fucked, then you're more fucked, then you're dead...

But don't worry, few shareholders and CEO got their Maybach fully paid before the share prices dropped too much...

[Greji]

".....THE BLOG POST I QUOTE STATE THAT REACTOR #2 AT TSURUGA IS RIGHT OVER A FAULT LINE... YOU CALL THAT DISINGENUOUS ?....."

Where in Japan is not right over a fault line?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Where in Japan is not right over a fault line?

Wherever I am according to No. 3, who insists that every single fault in existence is entirely mine (and the court believes her, too....maybe the evidence she's provided is not doing me too many favors?)

[matsuki]

They are guilty of failure. Can any other people be said to have failed at democracy? Even when the problems were shown to them?

[MrUltimateGaijin]

I agree with the gist of what you are saying, but there is a problem. The Japanese people voted the incompetents (LDP) out, only to discover that their replacement (DPJ) is hardly any better. Hell, tell me one politician or political party in Japan that is competent. In the end, of course, that is the responsibility of the Japanese people too, but I always wonder why it has come to this. I know the situation in the Netherlands is pretty much fornicated up too, but at least the population expects from political parties that they show some realism when it comes to financial planning etc.

the new guys are incompetent because the Japanese were too hopeless to develop a proper political system over half a century. The DPJ, like the LDP, probably was never molded by a competitive system which weeds out people who can't make decisions. Instead, it was probably more like, "Your grandfather was a minister? Well, righty o', you can be one two. Tow the line for 30 years and there's a chance you could be PM."

There's no reason to assume members of the DPJ will be any better at the job than their LDP counterparts.

[Coligny]

Trying to give Greji a boner... great... can see that it's not you who have to babysit the olders during goldenshowerweek...


ffs... they have pethotels...(even pet lovehotels...) can't they have oyajis daycare too ?

[Big Booger]

So what is the plan for power? WHy don't they build some new, modern reactors? And of course add in some other forms of power generation..

[Coligny]

So what is the plan for power? WHy don't they build some new, modern reactors? And of course add in some other forms of power generation..

The plan A...

if they are ballsy and stupid enough will be to trigger artificial blackout a-la Enron... to justify restarting the nukeplants... (*) Which once they get cought might be enough for people to start beheading them... (one can hope)...

The plan B...

wait... you don't expect these guys to think something all through the end do you ?



(*) the problem with a gov that bullshit you nonstop is we don't actually know of any potential shortfall in power production. If we had the number relating to power use last summer, with the graph of daily temperature and meteo prevision for this summer we could work something out... But Noda being a sold out piece of shit built to milspec even if these number were to be made available they would have to be verified first before being worked upon...

So... stockpile on power generator...

[Yokohammer]

So... stockpile on power generator...

I know you're not joking, but others might think you are, so ...

He's not joking folks.

I now have two of the things. Very handy.

[Coligny]

I know you're not joking, but others might think you are, so ...

He's not joking folks.

I now have two of the things. Very handy.

Here I got a Yamaha 2300W / gasoline / 93db (noisy)
And I bought for evaluation a Honda powered by BBQ gaz bottles 900W I have yet to even fill it with oil.

The Yamaha is around 5 mans for 2300W peak
While the Honda is 10 mans for 900W peak (*)

Depending on the noise issue I will either put one or 2 more Honda OR few more Yamaha. My biggest problem is that the building is all wired for triphase split at every levels with common neutral. And I'm not sure a solution where I plug 1 generator for each live with common neutral return would work fine...

So for this summer it will be a little artisanal. If it's bad enough (threshold being at 1 cut / day) a buidling wide butane generator will be placed in the separate bicycle parking. interfaced directly with the grid power supply.
Another option would be to play the white plug/red plug game where selected rooms get a separate electric supply either only backup powerered or autoswitched in case of failure.

For now I need to replace a battery pack on one of the servers UPS (CCTV one...) Buy a small UPS for the building TV antenna dispatcher... And few more silent UPS for dad's TV/recorder because without samurai drama... shit gonna get real quite fast...

Also... have to buy much more fuel tanks to run the genrator... and shelves to avoid stacking them which render the rotation of the stock a bit tricky...

(*) can be daisy chained up to 1800W, have small wheels and a handle like a shopping cart, so easy to move, small, quite perfect for picnic... (but still 20 fracking kg... and 81db)

[Yokohammer]

And I bought for evaluation a Honda powered by BBQ gaz bottles 900W I have yet to even fill it with oil.

So you got an "Enepo".
Those are pretty cool. They don't run very long on the two gas canisters (just under 4 hours, was it?), but the big advantage is that they're essentially maintenance free. With a gasoline generator you have make sure they don't sit around too long with gas in the carburetor or they'll get gummed up and require servicing. No such problem with the Enepo. You can pretty much just put 'em away until needed. Probably a good choice for city folk.

My latest acquisition is a Honda EU9i. 900 watts, built-in inverter, and only 13kg! Real quiet too. Depending on load it'll run 4~7 hours on 2.1 liters of gasoline. Perfect for camping as well as emergency duty.*

[SIZE="1"]* Secret info for Coligny: I also use it at the RC airfield to charge my flight Li-Pos.[/SIZE]

[Coligny]

I think it's more 2 hours + for the cooking gas thingymabob... I bought it more with mominlaw in mind. It's something that she can manage by herself if needed... ok... maybe need dad for the cranking... But still, no starter or complicamated procedure to start it...

(sidenote... just received my Globalhawk EDF/EPO drone... second airframe I buy in 6 month without still having the start of a clue where to fly them -legally-... And with a vision that will soon make FPV mandatory... And flying the micro choppers indoors is less and less possible... the cats have become excellent at catching them in mid-flight... and chewing them to -expensive- bits)

[Yokohammer]

(sidenote... just received my Globalhawk EDF/EPO drone... second airframe I buy in 6 month without still having the start of a clue where to fly them -legally-... And with a vision that will soon make FPV mandatory...)

Really OT ... but fuggit.
Join a club. That's what I did, so I have a legal airfield to fly at. Cool bunch of guys. Mostly older guys because this particular club is mostly helicopters, and you know how that goes.

OK ... sorry for the diversion folks ...

[SIZE="1"](Very cool ducted fan thingy, by the way.)[/SIZE]

[Big Booger]

Well I may just have to get me a portable generator. BUt honestly I never use aircon, even on the hottest days of summer.

[Coligny]

Really OT ... but fuggit.
Join a club. That's what I did, so I have a legal airfield to fly at. Cool bunch of guys. Mostly older guys because this particular club is mostly helicopters, and you know how that goes.

OK ... sorry for the diversion folks ...

(Very cool ducted fan thingy, by the way.)

Can an admin move these to tokyo tech or sumthing ?

Yeah the club option looked the good way... but here also they are really fracking old... like Greji old...
They also are more helo oriented.
Their concept of safety is a bit different than mine. Last time they were doing flight exhibition at a fair, in public with nearly no safety distance... (gasoline Helos quite big birds 50 / 600 hundred class, enough to at best bleed badly in case of blade strike...)