12 dead in Paris shooting

[yanpa]

Not really worth that much of a threadjack, and not directed personally at Yokohammer but at poor risk assessment by everyone, including me, but if you like you can look at pedestrian fatalities in just Paris over the last year if you wish, and compare them to terrorism fatalities in Paris this year: you get a two-for-one with Charlie Hebdo included, and then ask yourself whether the risk of a nasty accident in Paris has increased significantly. I suppose it all depends how much you do or don't want to stand in a crowd trying to see the Mona Lisa, whether this tips the balance, which is, after all, the gist of your post.

I went to Madrid last year and even went on some trains without being blown up. To tempt fate I even passed through London twice while using the underground.

Anyway about time the USA and its beholden allies bomb these skyfairy botherers of a certain persuasion back into the stone age... Oh they've been doing that for years already? Hmm...

[Wage Slave]

I had an inkling we had a problem when there were people here in Holland who were cheering in the streets right after 9/11. Now I know for sure. This won't end until Paris and other major European cities become like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, with checkpoints and conscripts patrolling the streets, ready to shoot on sight.

Don't forget confiscation of property, deportation and concentration behind walls and fences. Oh, and sending the military in every now and again to mow the grass. Except it doesn't really work - look how peaceful and secure Israel isn't. It does though scratch a certain itch.

How about a few other ideas?

1. Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash. That decades of injustice and repression and cack handed, corrupt and duplicitous middle east policy have brought us here. There are real and deep seated grievances that fuel the alienation and violence.

1. Be clear the the Sunni monarchies are not part of the solution but a huge part of the problem. Bring their rotten and corrupt rules to an end and in the process cut off the funding for the extremist sunni movements - The Taliban, Al Qaeda and Daesh.

2. Be clear that western support for those monarchies and western policy in the middle east more generally has been a huge part of the problem. Resolve to change.

3. Support rather than assist to crush democratic and liberal secular tendencies in the middle east.

4. Be prepared to use overwhelming military power to crush the likes of Daesh.

5. After using military power to achieve regime change do not hand over power to a bunch of corrupt clannish gangsters just because they promise to do everything they are told as long as they can get on with business - Like the House of Saud have done for decades with total American (and other) support.

6. Try to be even handed for a change in trying to broker a peace with Israel - Actually start putting Israel under some pressure to seek peace rather than helping them to smite their enemies harder and harder. Bring land theft and occupation to an end.

[Grumpy Gramps]

1.
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6.

In short, that would be world war 3. Problem is that no-one would be willing to start that unless they can make a juicy profit out if it. No gain, no pain...

[Wage Slave]

1.
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In short, that would be world war 3. Problem is that no-one would be willing to start that unless they can make a juicy profit out if it. No gain, no pain...

If we continue the way we are we are going to get world war 3 anyway. If we do have one, at least let's have one for the right reasons rather than the wrong ones. There will be some losers and there will be some messiness but I don't see any alternative. More and more repression whether by the Sunni monarchies (while facilitating Sunni terror), by the West or by Israel just isn't going to work.

[Tsuru]

I had an inkling we had a problem when there were people here in Holland who were cheering in the streets right after 9/11. Now I know for sure. This won't end until Paris and other major European cities become like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, with checkpoints and conscripts patrolling the streets, ready to shoot on sight.

Don't forget confiscation of property, deportation and concentration behind walls and fences. Oh, and sending the military in every now and again to mow the grass. Except it doesn't really work - look how peaceful and secure Israel isn't. It does though scratch a certain itch.

How about a few other ideas?

1. Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash. That decades of injustice and repression and cack handed, corrupt and duplicitous middle east policy have brought us here. There are real and deep seated grievances that fuel the alienation and violence.

1. Be clear the the Sunni monarchies are not part of the solution but a huge part of the problem. Bring their rotten and corrupt rules to an end and in the process cut off the funding for the extremist sunni movements - The Taliban, Al Qaeda and Daesh.

2. Be clear that western support for those monarchies and western policy in the middle east more generally has been a huge part of the problem. Resolve to change.

3. Support rather than assist to crush democratic and liberal secular tendencies in the middle east.

4. Be prepared to use overwhelming military power to crush the likes of Daesh.

5. After using military power to achieve regime change do not hand over power to a bunch of corrupt clannish gangsters just because they promise to do everything they are told as long as they can get on with business - Like the House of Saud have done for decades with total American (and other) support.

6. Try to be even handed for a change in trying to broker a peace with Israel - Actually start putting Israel under some pressure to seek peace rather than helping them to smite their enemies harder and harder. Bring land theft and occupation to an end.

Oh, I agree completely. I wasn't making a suggestion about what to do, I was pointing out the progression of what's inevitably going to happen if we don't do something. If you read my earlier responses in the thread about the thwarted attack on the TGV, I was already hinting at Saudi oil money being used to finance the spread of radical wahabism. This needs to stop.

But I fear that Mr Hollande's words will turn out to be just that. Words. Just like earlier this year and the time before that.... yeah yeah, now the gloves are off, now you will see... nothing. Absolutely nothing will come of it except some more bombs on Syria.

[Wage Slave]

But I fear that Mr Hollande's words will turn out to be just that. Words. Just like earlier this year and the time before that.... yeah yeah, now the gloves are off, now you will see... nothing. Absolutely nothing will come of it except some more bombs on Syria.

Sorry I misread you there. Yes, I fear the same - horrible as this incident was, it won't change anything much.

[Russell]

Whatever Hollande says, it is important to investigate first exactly what happened and which people are responsible. They made one arrest at the theater (the other two terrorists were reportedly killed), and hopefully the culprit can shed some light on this matter.

[Tsuru]

He will say he was acting alone, just like the TGV guy. This is the latest thing. They don't even need to claim responsibility, everybody already knows they did it. But this makes proving they are part of a terrorist cell or organisation all the more difficult.

They also arrested someone in Germany who was travelling to Paris with rifles, ammunition and explosives in his car. He will also end up in prison as if he was acting alone.

[Russell]

He will say he was acting alone, just like the TGV guy. This is the latest thing. They don't even need to claim responsibility, everybody already knows they did it. But this makes proving they are part of a terrorist cell or organisation all the more difficult.

They also arrested someone in Germany who was travelling to Paris with rifles, ammunition and explosives in his car. He will also end up in prison as if he was acting alone.

They can say they act alone, but interrogations are only part of the police investigation, isn't it?

What I am interested in is who financed it, who trained them, who stimulated them? If there are any links to some governments (as Wage Slave hinted) or their intelligence agencies, it would be good to expose them, whatever those links are.

[Tsuru]

We already know the answers to all of these questions. These leads will be to our good and loyal rich friends in the KSA and Qatar, and absolutely nothing will come of it. We need these people to keep buying our weapons, airliners and luxury cars.

[Russell]

We already know the answers to all of these questions. These leads will be to our good and loyal rich friends in the KSA and Qatar, and absolutely nothing will come of it. We need these people to keep buying our weapons, airliners and luxury cars.

That appears to be the consensus, but without a proper investigation we don't know for sure.

[kurogane]

Anyway about time the USA and its beholden allies bomb these skyfairy botherers of a certain persuasion back into the stone age... Oh they've been doing that for years already? Hmm...

Curtis LeMay. I grew up on him. Great phrase, but look how well that worked. For all involved. Feck.

I get these guys don't talk, but has anyone talked about trying to get them to? Like Tsuru noted, too much toys to sell. With apologies for the inexcusable grammar there.

PS who is deez here Sunny ones, and whoze dun be the Shiite ones? Innit dey all towelheads? Why not start with a cleansing and see who be willin to talk den? Accepting what gWARDIAN rEADING Towelhead Lubber said above, we have been far too nice too far too many of them for far too long. I oppose such strategies, but it is starting to make a Sword of Gideon strategy look better. Tons of deads we don't give a shiite or sunni about anyways, and less crap. Win Win.

PPS joking, yes, but not much, sadly. It actually might be time to choose tribes and hope for the best.

[kagemusha]

He will say he was acting alone, just like the TGV guy. This is the latest thing. They don't even need to claim responsibility, everybody already knows they did it. But this makes proving they are part of a terrorist cell or organisation all the more difficult.

They also arrested someone in Germany who was travelling to Paris with rifles, ammunition and explosives in his car. He will also end up in prison as if he was acting alone.

They can say they act alone, but interrogations are only part of the police investigation, isn't it?

What I am interested in is who financed it, who trained them, who stimulated them? If there are any links to some governments (as Wage Slave hinted) or their intelligence agencies, it would be good to expose them, whatever those links are.

I can tell you that in 90% of these cases, the involved, the intentions and the platforms are already known to the authorities a short time before the attack and anyway, a few hours later the intelligence forces have everything they need to know. It's not about the who' it's about the when and how.

[Taro Toporific]

Obviously a false flag of the International Jewish Conspiracy...

ISIS claimed responsibility for Friday's attacks in Paris in an online statement distributed by supporters.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/14/world/paris-attacks/index.html

ISIS.jpg

French President Hollande says ISIS is responsible for Paris attacks that killed 127.
http://slate.me/1kUxy11

[kagemusha]

I had an inkling we had a problem when there were people here in Holland who were cheering in the streets right after 9/11. Now I know for sure. This won't end until Paris and other major European cities become like Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, with checkpoints and conscripts patrolling the streets, ready to shoot on sight.

Don't forget confiscation of property, deportation and concentration behind walls and fences. Oh, and sending the military in every now and again to mow the grass. Except it doesn't really work - look how peaceful and secure Israel isn't. It does though scratch a certain itch.

How about a few other ideas?

1. Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash. That decades of injustice and repression and cack handed, corrupt and duplicitous middle east policy have brought us here. There are real and deep seated grievances that fuel the alienation and violence.

1. Be clear the the Sunni monarchies are not part of the solution but a huge part of the problem. Bring their rotten and corrupt rules to an end and in the process cut off the funding for the extremist sunni movements - The Taliban, Al Qaeda and Daesh.

2. Be clear that western support for those monarchies and western policy in the middle east more generally has been a huge part of the problem. Resolve to change.

3. Support rather than assist to crush democratic and liberal secular tendencies in the middle east.

4. Be prepared to use overwhelming military power to crush the likes of Daesh.

5. After using military power to achieve regime change do not hand over power to a bunch of corrupt clannish gangsters just because they promise to do everything they are told as long as they can get on with business - Like the House of Saud have done for decades with total American (and other) support.

6. Try to be even handed for a change in trying to broker a peace with Israel - Actually start putting Israel under some pressure to seek peace rather than helping them to smite their enemies harder and harder. Bring land theft and occupation to an end.

I wish I could have a constructive debate with you but I'm afraid we will never get passed those empty uni campus slogans.
What I can tell you is that to me, those slogans are exactly the thing that prolong the Israeli-Palestinians conflict. But this only my opinion I would love to defend if there will be any merit in it.
I would just like to ask you, in light of our previous discussion, on what knowledge/experience/academic study do you base your so decisive opinion?
I'm not trying to provoke or to 'win' just want to hear on what you base your opinions, the mainstream media, Palestinian media, Palestinian activists or the Israeli ones? Have you been there?

[wagyl]

We already know the answers to all of these questions. These leads will be to our good and loyal rich friends in the KSA and Qatar, and absolutely nothing will come of it. We need these people to keep buying our weapons, airliners and luxury cars.

That appears to be the consensus, but without a proper investigation we don't know for sure.

I am glad that your attitude has changed from yesterday, Russell, when consensus about Mohammed Emwazi was enough, and investigating too risky, that an alleged execution (he is now apparently "probably dead" in the Pentagon's opinion) was OK enough to want to watch a video of it. You might be lucky: "probably dead" might mean he lingered on in pain, which makes for a longer video.

[kurogane]

You have never seen automatic cannons in action. There's not enough meat left to have pain. Plus, he was a filthy infidel. This is war, not a domestic murder case. I would have preferred him tried, but if a tiny bit of him quivered in his last moments, would the head of his chosen snackbar condemn us?

This is a religious war, btw.

[wagyl]

Anyway about time the USA and its beholden allies bomb these skyfairy botherers of a certain persuasion back into the stone age... Oh they've been doing that for years already? Hmm...

Curtis LeMay. I grew up on him. Great phrase, but look how well that worked. For all involved. Feck.

I get these guys don't talk, but has anyone talked about trying to get them to? Like Tsuru noted, too much toys to sell. With apologies for the inexcusable grammar there.

PS who is deez here Sunny ones, and whoze dun be the Shiite ones? Innit dey all towelheads? Why not start with a cleansing and see who be willin to talk den? Accepting what gWARDIAN rEADING Towelhead Lubber said above, we have been far too nice too far too many of them for far too long. I oppose such strategies, but it is starting to make a Sword of Gideon strategy look better. Tons of deads we don't give a shiite or sunni about anyways, and less crap. Win Win.

PPS joking, yes, but not much, sadly. It actually might be time to choose tribes and hope for the best.

Just correcting the attribution above, and also suggesting in this context that the approach of the Papal legate, Abbot of Citeaux, Arnaud Amalric in the Albigensian Crusade against Christian heretics in the south of France. It proved difficult to tell the orthodox Catholics from the heretics, so the solution was to "Kill them all. For the Lord knows which of them are His own (and will give them reward in Heaven)." Of course it didn't hurt that part of the reward for taking part in the Crusade was that the crusaders were permitted to confiscate the property of the heretics, and this heresy was that the material world is an illusion of the Devil, so the heretics tended not to hold property anyway. Perhaps it is not heretical to say that the hope that we have moved on in 800 years is an illusion.
Béziers 1209, alwayz in R harts

[Samurai_Jerk]

Islamic State claims responsibility for Paris attacks

Islamic State claimed responsibility on Saturday for attacks that killed 127 people in Paris, saying it sent fighters strapped with suicide bombing belts and carrying machine guns to various locations in the heart of the capital.

The attacks were designed to show France would remain a top target for the jihadist group as long as the country continued its current policies, the group said in a statement.

[...]

Islamic State earlier on Saturday distributed an undated video threatening to attack France if bombings of its fighters continued.

The group's foreign media arm, Al-Hayat Media Centre, made threats through several militants who called on French Muslims to carry out attacks.

"As long as you keep bombing you will not live in peace. You will even fear traveling to the market," said one of the militants, identified as Abu Maryam the Frenchman.

[...]

The militants, who appeared to be French citizens, sat cross-legged in a group wearing fatigues and holding weapons in what appeared to be a wooded area.

The video showed the militants burning passports.

"Indeed you have been ordered to fight the infidel wherever you find him – what are you waiting for? There are weapons and cars available and targets ready to be hit," said Abu Maryam.

Another militant, identified as Abu Salman the Frenchman, said: "Even poison is available, so poison the water and food of at least one of the enemies of Allah."

"Terrorize them and do not allow them to sleep due to fear and horror," he added.

[wagyl]

You have never seen automatic cannons in action. There's not enough meat left to have pain. Plus, he was a filthy infidel. This is war, not a domestic murder case. I would have preferred him tried, but if a tiny bit of him quivered in his last moments, would the head of his chosen snackbar condemn us?

This is a religious war, btw.

I think "probably dead" really means "someone was vaporised on our cameras, but we are not sure if we got the right person," if I am permitted to be serious for a moment.

Sounds like it is a time to get Four Lions out of the video library again.

[Coligny]

The fact that we have a carrier group with nuclear strike capacity heading for dirkastan might not have helped...

[Wage Slave]

I wish I could have a constructive debate with you but I'm afraid we will never get passed those empty uni campus slogans.
What I can tell you is that to me, those slogans are exactly the thing that prolong the Israeli-Palestinians conflict. But this only my opinion I would love to defend if there will be any merit in it.

Fine with me. You just put your case and I'll put mine.

go back to play with your LEGO kit, that's your choice.

Next time try something more suitable to your intellectual ability.

Call me when you grow up and have anything substantial to say

I can get that kind of debate at home any time. I don't need to come here for it.

I would just like to ask you, in light of our previous discussion, on what knowledge/experience/academic study do you base your so decisive opinion?
I'm not trying to provoke or to 'win' just want to hear on what you base your opinions, the mainstream media, Palestinian media, Palestinian activists or the Israeli ones? Have you been there?

Mind your own business. Just say what it is you think Europeans should be doing and why. And then we can just let the jury decide.

[kurogane]

.

I think "probably dead" really means "someone was vaporised on our cameras, but we are not sure if we got the right person," if I am permitted to be serious for a moment.

Yes. That is my only concern there. If it was him, good. If not, a major fail. To the point of packing up, going back to coal and saying fuck you all to all those filthy, subhuman trogs we buy our oil from. Not that some ofthem aren't nice, but they can always move here anyways.

I would have gone for the Hockey Night in Canada theme, btw. Assuming it really was him. And I still would have preferred to see him tried. And I am aboslutely dying to see how well Corbyn is going to fuck this one up (and he will), and I firmly believe he is the best thing since Jimmy Carter refused to authorize the Neutron Bomb. Nobody that thinks that sandals go with socks should be that humour free. It simply doesn't help the cause.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash.

If they were only targeting the West and corrupt Middle Eastern regimes, I might buy your claim but the destruction of antiquities and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis and other vulnerable minorities tells another story. They want to establish a Caliphate under strict Sharia law and purge their lands of all infidels. You have to be a radical Sunni Muslim to join their club and it's that religious component that attracts young educated well-off men from the West. Besides the main reason they're angry about American and European meddling in their affairs is because we're not Muslim. We don't even have to wonder if it's about religion because they use Islam to justify everything they say and do. Why do you refuse to believe them when they're telling us very clearly what it's all about?

[kurogane]

Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash.

If they were only targeting the West and corrupt Middle Eastern regimes, I might buy your claim ..........

My take is that it's a bit like admitting the Vancouver Canucks aren't the best thing to ever happen to the most macho sport ever: when you take their skates off they're just a bunch of well intentioned Tall Swedes in stockings and garters

[Wage Slave]

Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash.

If they were only targeting the West and corrupt Middle Eastern regimes, I might buy your claim but the destruction of antiquities and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis and other vulnerable minorities tells another story. They want to establish a Caliphate under strict Sharia law and purge their lands of all infidels. You have to be a radical Sunni Muslim to join their club and it's that religious component that attracts young educated well-off men from the West to them. Besides the main reason they're angry about American and European meddling in their affairs is because we're not Muslim. We don't even have to wonder if it's about religion because they use Islam to justify everything they say and do. Why do you refuse to believe them when they're telling us very clearly what it's all about?

Yes, but a lot of the support they garner and their appeal has other roots that are not connected to religion or culture. First they need their potential recruits and supporters to be alienated. Then they can brainwash them with religion. People like Daesh have always been around but the real question is, why are they getting more and more traction?

We need to destroy Daesh - No question. But we also need to deal with some of the root causes of their support. Or there will just be yet another organisation to deal with. Al Qaeda, at enormous cost, was pretty much destroyed by military power and some stern words with the Saudis. However, wait a few years and up pops an even more extreme replacement.

At some point, if it keeps failing, you have to ask yourself why it isn't working and change the basic strategy. Even if Halliburton, Israel and the Sunni monarchies don't like it.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash.

If they were only targeting the West and corrupt Middle Eastern regimes, I might buy your claim ..........

My take is that it's a bit like admitting the Vancouver Canucks aren't the best thing to ever happen to the most macho sport ever: when you take their skates off they're just a bunch of well intentioned Tall Swedes in stockings and garters

I'm not sure what that means, but OK.

[Wage Slave]

Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash.

If they were only targeting the West and corrupt Middle Eastern regimes, I might buy your claim ..........

My take is that it's a bit like admitting the Vancouver Canucks aren't the best thing to ever happen to the most macho sport ever: when you take their skates off they're just a bunch of well intentioned Tall Swedes in stockings and garters

I'm not sure what that means, but OK.

You and me both.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash.

If they were only targeting the West and corrupt Middle Eastern regimes, I might buy your claim but the destruction of antiquities and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis and other vulnerable minorities tells another story. They want to establish a Caliphate under strict Sharia law and purge their lands of all infidels. You have to be a radical Sunni Muslim to join their club and it's that religious component that attracts young educated well-off men from the West to them. Besides the main reason they're angry about American and European meddling in their affairs is because we're not Muslim. We don't even have to wonder if it's about religion because they use Islam to justify everything they say and do. Why do you refuse to believe them when they're telling us very clearly what it's all about?

Yes, but a lot of the support they garner and their appeal has other roots that are not connected to religion or culture. First they need their potential recruits and supporters to be alienated. Then they can brainwash them with religion. People like Daesh have always been around but the real question is, why are they getting more and more traction?

We need to destroy Daesh - No question. But we also need to deal with some of the root causes of their support. Or there will just be yet another organisation to deal with. Al Qaeda, at enormous cost, was pretty much destroyed by military power and some stern words with the Saudis. However, wait a few years and up pops an even more extreme replacement.

At some point, if it keeps failing, you have to ask yourself why it isn't working and change the basic strategy. Even if Halliburton, Israel and the Sunni monarchies don't like it.

Of course there's more than one cause and we can't ignore the political and economic issues that are part of the equation but there are too many people who want to downplay just how important religion is in this conflict. Even the situation in Israel is a religious issue first and foremost. I don't mean as far as the Palestinians are concerned but with Muslims around the world. If you had the exact same situation but replaced the Jews with a different Muslim ethnic group, the Palestinians would still be fucked but few Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Pakistan, or England would care.

[Wage Slave]

Recognise that it is not a conflict fundamentally driven by religion and culture clash.

If they were only targeting the West and corrupt Middle Eastern regimes, I might buy your claim but the destruction of antiquities and the attempted genocide of the Yazidis and other vulnerable minorities tells another story. They want to establish a Caliphate under strict Sharia law and purge their lands of all infidels. You have to be a radical Sunni Muslim to join their club and it's that religious component that attracts young educated well-off men from the West to them. Besides the main reason they're angry about American and European meddling in their affairs is because we're not Muslim. We don't even have to wonder if it's about religion because they use Islam to justify everything they say and do. Why do you refuse to believe them when they're telling us very clearly what it's all about?

Yes, but a lot of the support they garner and their appeal has other roots that are not connected to religion or culture. First they need their potential recruits and supporters to be alienated. Then they can brainwash them with religion. People like Daesh have always been around but the real question is, why are they getting more and more traction?

We need to destroy Daesh - No question. But we also need to deal with some of the root causes of their support. Or there will just be yet another organisation to deal with. Al Qaeda, at enormous cost, was pretty much destroyed by military power and some stern words with the Saudis. However, wait a few years and up pops an even more extreme replacement.

At some point, if it keeps failing, you have to ask yourself why it isn't working and change the basic strategy. Even if Halliburton, Israel and the Sunni monarchies don't like it.

Of course there's more than one cause and we can't ignore the political and economic issues that are part of the equation but there are too many people who want to downplay just how important religion is in this conflict. Even the situation in Israel is a religious issue first and foremost. I don't mean as far as the Palestinians are concerned but with Muslims around the world. If you had the exact same situation but replaced the Jews with a different Muslim ethnic group, the Palestinians would still be fucked but few Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Pakistan, or England would care.

Yep, I agree Israel is only a part of why large swathes of the Arab world have grievances with the west. It isn't even the main issue in all honesty, but it is part of it. Notice in my list of suggestions that Israel only gets a mention right at the end.