Burkini Babes Will Handcuff You

[Russell]

This is pretty progressive IMO for Bible-Thumpistan.

The US is a lot more progressive than Europe when it comes to religious freedom precisely because of our Bible-thumping tendencies. A lot of the more empathetic sects of Evangelical Christianity not to mention American Catholics and the once persecuted Mormons are the first to defend minority religions. Unfortunately that can sometimes be twisted by right-wing Christians in an attempt to take away people's freedoms in other areas (gay rights, company health insurance that covers birth control, etc.)

Maybe depends on where in the US and where in Europe.

I have heard horror stories about atheists being treated in extreme unfair ways in the US by those so-called "religious tolerant people". Wouldn't happen in Europe.

[legion]

Yes, and when a cop wears religious attire, it puts in doubt his/her impartiality.

I'd rather be forewarned of someones likelihood of partiality.,whether or not they wear it on their head or sleeve.

[Tsuru]

Yes, and when a cop wears religious attire, it puts in doubt his/her impartiality.

I'd rather be forewarned of someones likelihood of partiality.,whether or not they wear it on their head or sleeve.

Unfortunately you don't get to choose which officer stops you in traffic or on the street. There's the rub.

Banning attire (with the exception of stuff that hides someone's face in public) is a stupid idea, but representatives of the state need to be absolutely neutral. Ostentacious religious attire has absolutely no place in a police force.

[Wage Slave]

A good police force will also accurately reflect the community it serves. So, if we are talking about a large Western European city, ideally you will have officers from different communities. What's important is the content of their character and their determination to treat everyone fairly and with respect, not what religious faith they may follow. If you insist that no-one, and that has to include Christians, can wear anything or display anything that is associated with their religion then you are going to lose or at least never recruit a lot of good officers.

Personally, I think it's an unhelpful distraction and if you go hardline you are going to end up with endless debates. Are beards OK if you are a Christian but not if you are a Muslim or a Sikh? How about wedding rings? They have a religious underpinning in the UK. What about Sideburns? Tattoos? Crosses? And so on. Not that I am any fan of religion but we have to accept that many people are and place value on it and so a suitable proportion police officers will naturally be, and should be religious. I think that officers should be allowed to display signs or symbols of their religion as long as they are reasonable, consistent with the operational demands of their particular role and the maintenance of uniform policy. There are some very good reasons for uniforms if you think about it and that's important too.

[Tsuru]

You'll be hard pressed to find any officers with visible crosses, stars of david, turbans or other things which are commonly regarded as religious symbols in mainland Europe. I'm sure Britain is different, but as you know countries like France have laws which specifically prohibit representatives of the state from displaying religious symbols, and bans them from places such as public schools and courts of justice. Currently the implemention of rules such as these are under discussion in Germany and other countries. This is simply an extension of our interpretation of the separation of church and state, something which took centuries to achieve and now for some reason seems to be up for debate (it isn't).

But you didn't just equate a wedding ring to a hijab, did you? I wear a wedding ring simply in keeping with a centuries-old tradition, and while I'm sure many christians like to claim that they invented the concept of marriage in the west (they didn't), it's not even the same ballpark, not the same league, and not even the same sport. And besides, wedding rings are commonly worn by all people including muslims, not just christians. Same thing with beards.

My position is that religious beliefs are a personal matter and in any secular western nation have no place in the public domain. Much less the state.

[Coligny]

A good police force will also accurately reflect the community it serves.

hemmm...

no...

communautarism is the last thing you want in a police force...

Police is here to uphold the law. Regardless of ethnicity, religion or sex.

[Grumpy Gramps]

How about wedding rings? They have a religious underpinning in the UK.

Hmm, never thought of a wedding ring as a religious sign. Only a sign to tread a llittle more lightly, when trying to chat up a girl who wears one. But now that you mention it,,, when I married wifey back in my city hall, there was no talk at all about rings, so it might as well be a church thing.

Police is here to uphold the law. Regardless of ethnicity, religion or sex.

Most places do have female police officers to cater for female perps. Why only women?

I have no problem with people including cops wearing things that they think are important to them. Might even be helpful to better understand them and their reactions; and is more colorful and interesting than them boring vanilla uniforms.

[wagyl]

But you didn't just equate a wedding ring to a hijab, did you? I wear a wedding ring simply in keeping with a centuries-old tradition.

Now go and ask that nice Muslim lady whether her hijab is in keeping with a centuries-old tradition.

[Russell]

You'll be hard pressed to find any officers with visible crosses, stars of david, turbans or other things which are commonly regarded as religious symbols in mainland Europe. I'm sure Britain is different, but as you know countries like France have laws which specifically prohibit representatives of the state from displaying religious symbols, and bans them from places such as public schools and courts of justice. Currently the implemention of rules such as these are under discussion in Germany and other countries. This is simply an extension of our interpretation of the separation of church and state, something which took centuries to achieve and now for some reason seems to be up for debate (it isn't).

But you didn't just equate a wedding ring to a hijab, did you? I wear a wedding ring simply in keeping with a centuries-old tradition, and while I'm sure many christians like to claim that they invented the concept of marriage in the west (they didn't), it's not even the same ballpark, not the same league, and not even the same sport. And besides, wedding rings are commonly worn by all people including muslims, not just christians. Same thing with beards.

My position is that religious beliefs are a personal matter and in any secular western nation have no place in the public domain. Much less the state.

This!

+100

[Coligny]

image.jpeg

[Wage Slave]

A good police force will also accurately reflect the community it serves.

hemmm...

no...

communautarism is the last thing you want in a police force...

Police is here to uphold the law. Regardless of ethnicity, religion or sex.

Different views. Do you seek to police by consent or by the rod? The UK seeks primarily to police by consent, iron fist in a velvet glove and all that. You can judge for yourself how successful they are in that but it is noticeable they are still the only police I know of that don't carry guns.

How does wearing or not wearing a religious symbol, in itself, make any difference to how someone upholds the law regardless of ethnicity, religion or sex? Either they are the kind of person who does or they aren't. It just isn't that important as far as I'm concerned. An independent complaints authority and the culture of the police are far more important.

[wagyl]

it is noticeable they are still the only police I know of that don't carry guns.

I really want to say "Bullshit!!!" here.

I can pretty much guarantee that there is at least one other police force, one which you have the opportunity for daily experience of and therefeor one that you know of, which also does not habitually carry firearms.

[Wage Slave]

it is noticeable they are still the only police I know of that don't carry guns.

I really want to say "Bullshit!!!" here.

I can pretty much guarantee that there is at least one other police force, one which you have the opportunity for daily experience of and therefeor one that you know of, which also does not habitually carry firearms.

Is that right? I thought they did. Shows how much notice I take of them then.

[yanpa]

it is noticeable they are still the only police I know of that don't carry guns.

I really want to say "Bullshit!!!" here.

I can pretty much guarantee that there is at least one other police force, one which you have the opportunity for daily experience of and therefeor one that you know of, which also does not habitually carry firearms.

Is that right? I thought they did. Shows how much notice I take of them then.

Same here, though I've obtained most of my knowledge of modern Japanese policing from Kochi kame so it may not be entirely accurate.

As for the British Bobby on the beat in central London at least, an awful lot of them seemed to be carrying truncheons carefully carved into the shape of a submachine gun last time I was there.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Most cops I see in Tokyo have revolvers on their hips but some don't depending on what they're doing.

[Samurai_Jerk]

separation church/state maybe...

Maybe not. Seperation of church and state is about not having a state religion which interestingly enough some very secular countries like the UK and Denmark do have. It's not about keeping the religious out of state jobs. I recognize that uniforms are uniquely important for a number of reasons in law enforcement and the military and if a country wants to be strict to the point that it keeps people who practice certain relgions from serving that's tough shit. Even if you make some exception it's not going to cover everyone so the line has to be drawn somwehere (full face veils or waist-length rasta dreds on cops anyone?) However, their inablity to serve should be because they refuse to meet the dress code not because their refusal happens represent a certain religion or philosophy. You might think that's arguing semantics but messaging is important. By making exceptions to freedoms based on people's relgious practices you're basically establishing secularism as the state religion.

Again how a person dresses is only an outward sign of a certain relgious belief. The most right-wing anti-everything-fun-under-the-sun evangelical Christians and Catholics would have no trouble meeting dress codes for pretty much any public job in any country. They could also just as easily dsicriminate as a Muslim woman who happens to wear the hijab and juding by the kind of shenanigans that get pulled at the state and local level in the US, they often do. In the case of the hijab there's a bigger problem though. Besides the bassackwards church-state seperation claim that Europeans like to make, one of the main argument for keeping civil servants from wearing the hijab is often that it's disciminatory againt women and sends the wrong message. The issue with that is by banning it you end up keeping mostly conservative Muslim women from those jobs and not men. In other words you're doubling down on the discimiantion and isolation.

[wagyl]

Have we actually objectively established that the hijab is discriminatory against women?

Is that discrimination, if any, any more severe than that requiring women to conceal their nipples and not men?

Do you outright reject the idea that, just as some women are more comfortable that the issue to conceal or reveal the nipple has been decided for them by society, so it is for the hijab? Or is to do that a symptom of surrender to the patriarchal hegemony?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Have we actually objectively established that the hijab is discriminatory against women?

Is that discrimination, if any, any more severe than that requiring women to conceal their nipples and not men?

Do you outright reject the idea that, just as some women are more comfortable that the issue to conceal or reveal the nipple has been decided for them by society, so it is for the hijab? Or is to do that a symptom of surrender to the patriarchal hegemony?

Good question. I don't necessarily believe that it is but I was more going with the logic of those who make the claim rather than saying I fully buy into it. It's a complicated issue and like most things it's not black and white. I know converts and women from moderate Muslim families who chose to start wearing the hijab as adults. I know Muslim women who never cover their heads in daily life but will tie their hair back when they pray. The only reason I know that was being at their house for dinner and giving thanks before we ate. I also know some Protestant sects expect women to cover their heads during church services. What about Jewish men who wear yarmulkes while their wives don't?

Japanese women generally choose to dress more conservatively than a lot of women in the West during the summer. Excpet for the gaijin groupies in Roppongi you don't see a lot of super low cut tops or ass cheeks hanging out of daisy dukes here. Even women in Korea and China tend to show more skin in the summer. American women tend to wear much more conservavie bikinis than women I saw in the beaches in Rio even when they have the bodies to pull off the Brazilian look. The reaons for those difference are more cultural than religious but can you really separate the two?

The fact is we're all brainwashed by the cultures, communities, and families we grew up in. Logically speaking I shouldn't care if everyone wants to walk around butt naked all the time but I can't say I'd feel that comfortable if they did (Maybe I would be OK with it if I were ripped and hung like AO though ). I don't have a problem with some places like NYC making it legal for a woman to go topless anywhere a man can but I also undertand that some communities think that's going too far. Also, despite their right to do so, few women in NYC choose to talk around with their tits out. You will see some sunbathing in Central Park but it's still not super common since even in a supposedly liberal sinful city like NY, Americans still aren't as comfortable with nudity as Europeans. Is that discrimination?

[matsuki]

I recognize that uniforms are uniquely important for a number of reasons in law enforcement and the military

Unless you're in Japan where anyone can cosplay like police and the police don't always wear uniforms....I wonder how many crimes have been committed by individuals posing as cops or undercover cops...

[Samurai_Jerk]

I recognize that uniforms are uniquely important for a number of reasons in law enforcement and the military

Unless you're in Japan where anyone can cosplay like police and the police don't always wear uniforms....I wonder how many crimes have been committed by individuals posing as cops or undercover cops...

Plain clothes cops aren't unique to Japan.

[matsuki]

I recognize that uniforms are uniquely important for a number of reasons in law enforcement and the military

Unless you're in Japan where anyone can cosplay like police and the police don't always wear uniforms....I wonder how many crimes have been committed by individuals posing as cops or undercover cops...

Plain clothes cops aren't unique to Japan.

Of course not but I would argue they are overused here and (as I was hinting at above, in a way that is ripe for abuse..especially with SARS masks being acceptable part of both uniformed and plain clothes cops attire) You can ask IPU regarding how unique an experience it is, I lost count of how many times he's been harassed by them.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I recognize that uniforms are uniquely important for a number of reasons in law enforcement and the military

Unless you're in Japan where anyone can cosplay like police and the police don't always wear uniforms....I wonder how many crimes have been committed by individuals posing as cops or undercover cops...

Plain clothes cops aren't unique to Japan.

Of course not but I would argue they are overused here and (as I was hinting at above, in a way that is ripe for abuse) You can ask IPU regarding how unique an experience it is, I lost count of how many times he's been harassed by them.

I have no idea about rates of use but I used to encounter them all the time in high school in NY. Especially in the Bronx when I was with my black and brown friends. If you grew up a visible minority in a shitty neighborhood, you're impression of how often they're used in the US might change.

[matsuki]

I recognize that uniforms are uniquely important for a number of reasons in law enforcement and the military

Unless you're in Japan where anyone can cosplay like police and the police don't always wear uniforms....I wonder how many crimes have been committed by individuals posing as cops or undercover cops...

Plain clothes cops aren't unique to Japan.

Of course not but I would argue they are overused here and (as I was hinting at above, in a way that is ripe for abuse) You can ask IPU regarding how unique an experience it is, I lost count of how many times he's been harassed by them.

I have no idea about rates of use but I used to encounter them all the time in high school in NY. Especially in the Bronx.

Probably impossible to get stats but I only ever saw them used in LA for undercover operations, not regular policing as they seem to do here. Not saying they don't have their place but zairyu card checks in IPU's gaijin barrio and the far reaches of the super inaka just don't seem neccesary.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Regular policing is exactly what they were used for in NY. Hard to make revenue from ticketing if a uniformed police officer discourages people from violating the law. And cops in a lot places in the US sit in around unmarked cars waiting for traffic violations.

[matsuki]

Regular policing is exactly what they were used for in NY. Hard to make revenue from ticketing if a uniformed police officer discourages people from violating the law. And cops in a lot places in the US sit in around unmarked cars waiting for traffic violations.

Guess that's just me being in my bubble where they aren't used as part of SOP. Discouraging people from violating the law would seem like what we'd want the police to do....but when the revenue generated goes to the dept

Anyhow, not stopping for police is one thing but....

The undercover CHP officers, part of a larger detail aimed at combating street racing over the holiday weekend, were monitoring a “sideshow” where truck drivers were performing dangerous burnouts on Sunday evening outside the Santa Fe Springs swap meet, police said. As uniformed officers closed in, 19-year-old Pedro Erik Villanueva, of Canoga Park, fled the area in a red Chevrolet Silverado pickup trick at speeds approaching 90 mph, the CHP has said.

The officers, driving an unmarked car, followed Villanueva for several miles into Fullerton and tried to stop him on North Pritchard Avenue, a residential cul-de-sac, about 10:50 p.m. Villanueva made a U-turn and drove toward the officers, who opened fire, according to Fullerton police.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california ... story.html

[Samurai_Jerk]

Guess that's just me being in my bubble where they aren't used as part of SOP.

Are you basing that on real knowledge or just your experience? Like I said, it wouldn't surpise me if it was being used but you weren't in a demographic that was being routinely targeted. I wasn't either but a lot of my friend were so I got to see how that worked. Plus when nice neighborhood are literally just a few blocks from the projects you tend to get exposed to that kind of thing a bit more regardless of your socioeconomic level than you would in cities were things are a bit more spread out.

[matsuki]

Guess that's just me being in my bubble where they aren't used as part of SOP.

Are you basing that on real knowledge or just your experience? Like I said, it wouldn't surpise me if it was being used but you weren't in a demographic that was being routinely targeted. I wasn't either but a lot of my friend were so I got to see how that worked. Plus when nice neighborhood are literally just a few blocks from the projects you tend to get exposed to that kind of thing a bit more regardless of your socioeconomic level than you would in cities were things are a bit more spread out.

I knew people that were involved both as plain clothes officers and one dude who was a "consultant." They were all researched and planned operations as opposed to what you and your friends were experiencing but as you say, LA is a different situation than NY. (either way, I don't like it used as a daily tactic, fishing for crime) I definitely wasn't in the demographics being targeted except at the street races like the link I posted above...though the one time I was caught there, I happened to not be racing or in a modified car so instead of a ticket, I got "Get the fuuuuuuck outta here and don't come back!" The consultant guy I knew was a Chinese dude that basically gave the cops ideas on the shady shit the local Chinese operations were doing and then would often be used as a customer/get arrested when the sting happened. I knew him from his auto-body business and some mutual friends. No idea if it was related but the guy literally disappeared several years ago. I was using one of his rarer vehicles to mold and make some custom parts at a local manufacturer. After we were done with the car I couldn't get ahold of him. (I was in Japan already) Next time I flew back his shop was gone and the parts manufacturer said the car was towed/impounded.

[legion]

Hmm, never thought of a wedding ring as a religious sign. Only a sign to tread a llittle more lightly, when trying to chat up a girl who wears one. But now that you mention it,,, when I married wifey back in my city hall, there was no talk at all about rings, so it might as well be a church thing.

My wedding ring has magical properties, it protects me from young women, drains my bank account and fills the kitchen cupboard with Tupperware.

[Coligny]

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[yanpa]

From the numberplate of the car on the left I'd be cautious about the attribute "European".