Why Has This File Been Locked for 92 Years?

[Wage Slave]

A bit Brit centric to say the least this one so apologies to others. Last night's edition of iPM was one of the most powerful radio programmes I have ever heard.

'What happened to Elsie Frost?' A sister and her brother talk to iPM about the unsolved murder of their fourteen year old sister in 1965. Who killed Elsie Frost and why has it been so hard for them to find out what they want to know?

The Metropolitan Police investigation files have been locked by the National Archive until 2060. A 92 year embargo. Why? Either it is to protect someone who is still around and holds extremely high office or the reputations of the West Yorkshire Police and/or the Met would be so damaged as to impair their ability to function. Or [insert favourite conspiracy theory here].

The programme is available here. I don't know for how long.

[Coligny]

Ehm...

How can civilian stuff be allowed to be classified ?

There is protection of secrecy during investigation. But after trial... It defacto expire.

No ?

[Wage Slave]

Ehm...

How can civilian stuff be allowed to be classified ?

There is protection of secrecy during investigation. But after trial... It defacto expire.

No ?

It isn't at all normal and I don't know why this has been classified and for so long - What possible link is there between an apparently unsolved murder of an ordinary 14 year old girl and national security? The family have absolutely no idea either.

But someone important has decided, not once but twice, that there is a link. The period was extended from 60 years to 92 years as soon as the family started making enquiries. And this was recent.

[Russell]

Ehm...

How can civilian stuff be allowed to be classified ?

There is protection of secrecy during investigation. But after trial... It defacto expire.

No ?

It isn't at all normal and I don't know why this has been classified and for so long - What possible link is there between an apparently unsolved murder of an ordinary 14 year old girl and national security? The family have absolutely no idea either.

But someone important has decided, not once but twice, that there is a link. The period was extended from 60 years to 92 years as soon as the family started making enquiries. And this was recent.

Possibly linked to a high-placed pedophile who killed her for pleasure.

[Wage Slave]

Ehm...

How can civilian stuff be allowed to be classified ?

There is protection of secrecy during investigation. But after trial... It defacto expire.

No ?

It isn't at all normal and I don't know why this has been classified and for so long - What possible link is there between an apparently unsolved murder of an ordinary 14 year old girl and national security? The family have absolutely no idea either.

But someone important has decided, not once but twice, that there is a link. The period was extended from 60 years to 92 years as soon as the family started making enquiries. And this was recent.

Possibly linked to a high-placed pedophile who killed her for pleasure.

That's what I thought was the most likely explanation. But who? It needs to be someone very important, that's still around/in office or whose legacy continues to impact people still around and in whatever their office or position is. Or there is information that would fatally wound the West Yorkshire Police (remember their performance in the Yorkshire Ripper cases) even after all these years. I favour the former theory with the latter as an aggravating factor.

[Russell]

Ehm...

How can civilian stuff be allowed to be classified ?

There is protection of secrecy during investigation. But after trial... It defacto expire.

No ?

It isn't at all normal and I don't know why this has been classified and for so long - What possible link is there between an apparently unsolved murder of an ordinary 14 year old girl and national security? The family have absolutely no idea either.

But someone important has decided, not once but twice, that there is a link. The period was extended from 60 years to 92 years as soon as the family started making enquiries. And this was recent.

Possibly linked to a high-placed pedophile who killed her for pleasure.

That's what I thought was the most likely explanation. But who? It needs to be someone very important, that's still around/in office or whose legacy continues to impact people still around and in whatever their office or position is. Or there is information that would fatally wound the West Yorkshire Police (remember their performance in the Yorkshire Ripper cases) even after all these years. I favour the former theory with the latter as an aggravating factor.

And it could even be someone from the Royal family.

[Wage Slave]

Ehm...

How can civilian stuff be allowed to be classified ?

There is protection of secrecy during investigation. But after trial... It defacto expire.

No ?

It isn't at all normal and I don't know why this has been classified and for so long - What possible link is there between an apparently unsolved murder of an ordinary 14 year old girl and national security? The family have absolutely no idea either.

But someone important has decided, not once but twice, that there is a link. The period was extended from 60 years to 92 years as soon as the family started making enquiries. And this was recent.

Possibly linked to a high-placed pedophile who killed her for pleasure.

That's what I thought was the most likely explanation. But who? It needs to be someone very important, that's still around/in office or whose legacy continues to impact people still around and in whatever their office or position is. Or there is information that would fatally wound the West Yorkshire Police (remember their performance in the Yorkshire Ripper cases) even after all these years. I favour the former theory with the latter as an aggravating factor.

And it could even be someone from the Royal family.

You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

[LUBA]

This reminds me of Madeline McCain, the Britain little girl who 'disapeared' in Portugal, daugther of a doctor very well conected with politicians.
The very first detective (belonging to the portuguese 'CSI team' equivalent) found clear evidence that their parents were involved in the disapearence.
After many strange cover ups, the detective was taken out from the case and ended up jobless. Many of that evidence disapeared or ended up ignored later when British investigations started. Even the satelitte footage of the 'event' misteriously disapeared.
The parents are still getting millions for the "Find madeline McCain" cause.

[dimwit]

My guess is that since the suspect's file has also been locked away, that the police probably thought he did it, but didn't have the evidence to prove it and when they charged him the case was dismissed, so it could be a case of double jeopardy. An interesting link can be found here.

[Coligny]

My guess is that since the suspect's file has also been locked away, that the police probably thought he did it, but didn't have the evidence to prove it and when they charged him the case was dismissed, so it could be a case of double jeopardy. An interesting link can be found here.

!? That don't make a lot of sense... Could you write it a bit slower ?

[Coligny]

This reminds me of Madeline McCain, the Britain little girl who 'disapeared' in Portugal, daugther of a doctor very well conected with politicians.
The very first detective (belonging to the portuguese 'CSI team' equivalent) found clear evidence that their parents were involved in the disapearence.
After many strange cover ups, the detective was taken out from the case and ended up jobless. Many of that evidence disapeared or ended up ignored later when British investigations started. Even the satelitte footage of the 'event' misteriously disapeared.
The parents are still getting millions for the "Find madeline McCain" cause.

Holy fucking shit... You should work for Fox News... Or stop tripping balls on horse tranquilizer...

For those who want a better idea of the case, including the proper name of the victim and the dodginess of the first detective:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disappea ... ine_McCann

[kurogane]

I remember a Star Trek episode where Jack the Ripper was said to be an alien life force that invaded a Terran host and committed nefarious deeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_in_the_Fold). Perhaps this is a wider effort to stifle awareness and discussion of the Alien Horde currently amongst us? At any rate, very disturbing to think that as normally open a society as the UK would supress information just for the benefit of a Grand Poobah gone bad.

OTOH, Dimwit's notion of double jeopardy is interesting, but the only plausible reason to do that would be to preserve the possibility of a future case against the scoundrel, and this file lock seems to extend beyond any normal lifespan.

Poor Elsie..................sadness

[dimwit]

No, I think it is a matter of the police being fucked if they do fucked if they don't. They may now have better evidence but can't charge him, and they can't say anything without opening themselves up to an action for libel or slander. The do not open until 2060 might be make sure the guy is definitively dead before people potentially slander him. Another non Star Trek possiblity (althought I personally think it was commited by a holodeck character) is that the accused was a minor at the time of the crime.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Dimwit, What does double jeopardy have to do with releasing files related to this case? Making information public doesn't equal retrying someone for the same crime. Or does double jeopardy mean something else in the UK (I wasn't able to open the link you provided)?

If it were just a case of protecting the name of a minor, couldn't they redact the suspect's name or other identifying information? At the very least the family deserves an explanation.

[Coligny]

My guess is that since the suspect's file has also been locked away, that the police probably thought he did it, but didn't have the evidence to prove it and when they charged him the case was dismissed, so it could be a case of double jeopardy. An interesting link can be found here.

!? That don't make a lot of sense... Could you write it a bit slower ?

Ok, so after few moar sleepy tiems... 1 i missed the 'unresolved' part. Meaning there was no trial yet.
Making the lock down on info less suspicious procedurally speaking.

But double jeopardy insurance ?.. When the lock down extension is sure to expire after the death of anyone even remotely involved ... Sry00zly !?

[Wage Slave]

No, I think it is a matter of the police being fucked if they do fucked if they don't. They may now have better evidence but can't charge him, and they can't say anything without opening themselves up to an action for libel or slander. The do not open until 2060 might be make sure the guy is definitively dead before people potentially slander him. Another non Star Trek possiblity (althought I personally think it was commited by a holodeck character) is that the accused was a minor at the time of the crime.

There is a double jeopardy rule in the UK but it is not as strict and comprehensive as in many countries. And especially in cases of murder the law was amended in 2003. All it needs for a retrial following an acquittal is for significant new information to emerge.

All witness statements and other statements in court cases are privileged. No-one can be sued for libel or slander for anything said in court or parliament. I'm not sure of the status of statements made to the police in the course of their investigations. Generally though, if you are making things up, then libel will be the least of your worries. I don't think the police can be sued for libel - never heard of it anyway. They can be sued for damages though.

It might not be appropriate for all the contents of that file to be made public because they contain personal and sensitive information given in confidence which is still sensitive after all these years. However, I don't see why the family shouldn't be able to see it in confidence. And, it may be that there is a public interest case to overrule the privacy concerns and so it should in fact be made public. At the moment the decision to close the record appears to be administrative rather than judicial.

In any case - Why so long? Who needs protection for at least 20 years after their death? And that assumes the murderer was 15 at the time and lives to the ripe old age of 90.

Anyhow, the BBC Radio 4 presenter at the end of the programme vowed to pursue it further. That radio station has a lot of connections and a lot of supporters. We will see.

[Wage Slave]

My guess is that since the suspect's file has also been locked away, that the police probably thought he did it, but didn't have the evidence to prove it and when they charged him the case was dismissed, so it could be a case of double jeopardy. An interesting link can be found here.

!? That don't make a lot of sense... Could you write it a bit slower ?

Ok, so after few moar sleepy tiems... 1 i missed the 'unresolved' part. Meaning there was no trial yet.
Making the lock down on info less suspicious procedurally speaking.

But double jeopardy insurance ?.. When the lock down extension is sure to expire after the death of anyone even remotely involved ... Sry00zly !?

That book is unreliable. There was a trial and an aquittal and we know the name:

John Spencer

and and a trial with no evidence offered by the prosecution

Ian Bernard Spencer

[Coligny]

And in today's discovery of the english language:
Unresolved doesn't mean it was not prosecuted...
Great
Need moar sleep...

[dimwit]

In any case - Why so long? Who needs protection for at least 20 years after their death? And that assumes the murderer was 15 at the time and lives to the ripe old age of 90.

Even with a cholesterol clogged West Yorkshire diet, people do regularly live to be over 90 these days.

Anyhow, a interesting tidbit about the case. The records for the suspect was closed in 1996, whereas the victims file was closed this year. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... /C10879094

[Wage Slave]

Even with a cholesterol clogged West Yorkshire diet, people do regularly live to be over 90 these days.

Anyhow, a interesting tidbit about the case. The records for the suspect was closed in 1996, whereas the victims file was closed this year. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... /C10879094

Hmmm. Not that often and not much past 90. Anyway, the question remains - Why does someone need protection for a long time after their death?

I didn't see the victim's file mentioned in that link.

[dimwit]

God this is all nice speculation. So let's use the intraweb and see if we can figure out who John Spencer is.

It could be him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Spenc ... rl_Spencer

except his actual name is Edward John Spencer

or him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Spencer_(actor)

or maybe him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Spenc ... ker_player)

[Wage Slave]

And another straw in the wind.

Diana Spencer's father's name was John Spencer. He died in 1992.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Spencer,_8th_Earl_Spencer

Edit to add: We crossed it seems. Yep, his name is also given as (Edward) John Spencer. Interesting that the other Spencer record gives both names (as is normal in legal documents). Perhaps the Edward is a nickname an John is his real name?

[dimwit]

Except as I just pointed out his actual name is Edward John Spencer which in the case of a legal is the name that they would certainly use.

[Wage Slave]

True.

[dimwit]

My vote is for the snooker player. You never know what evil cunning plans they have in their dark minds.

[Wage Slave]

Yeah, but he probably has a middle name for legal purposes too. 99% of people do.

Back to square one.

[kurogane]

It just got weirder. John Spencer the actor from the US political drama The West Wing was a Rusyn American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyn_American); nothing strange in that of course, but Robert Ulrich the actor was also of Rusyn descent, and he played:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spenser:_For_Hire


You're mind has being blown

[dimwit]

Even more shockingly Robert Ulrich and the cartoonist Bud Grace both attended Florida State University. And as you all know, one of the Bud Grace's characters is named Spencer.

[kurogane]

Whoa!!!!!!!!!ooooooooooooooooooooooooo


Dude, I think you just blew my mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dimwit]

As a follow-up I couldn't come across any links between Florida State University and Wakefield, but I did find a connection between West Yorkshire and FSU.

https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=west+yorkshire+fsu

FSU also stands for Firearm Support Unit. I think that should clear things up alot.