Burkini Babes Will Handcuff You

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Hollande is a pure breed cretin.

At least he is an accurate representation of his people (well, maybe not the "pure breed" (sic) part...)

[Samurai_Jerk]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

[Grumpy Gramps]

OTOH

US Army Permits Kippah and Beard for Soldiers

New US Department of Defense directives allow religious soldiers to request exemptions as long as approval doesn't hinder missions.

The US Department of Defense has loosened uniform regulations for religious garb, meaning Jewish soldiers in America will now be able to wear a kippah and grow a beard while serving in the army.

Aside from Jews, the change in policy allows Muslims, Sikhs and others to request exemptions to sport turbans and tattoos.

This is pretty progressive IMO for Bible-Thumpistan.

Election-year is everywhere and no-one has solutions for the real problems, so let's jihad some easy targets, who don't vote for us anyway...

[Samurai_Jerk]

This is pretty progressive IMO for Bible-Thumpistan.

The US is a lot more progressive than Europe when it comes to religious freedom precisely because of our Bible-thumping tendencies. A lot of the more empathetic sects of Evangelical Christianity not to mention American Catholics and the once persecuted Mormons are the first to defend minority religions. Unfortunately that can sometimes be twisted by right-wing Christians in an attempt to take away people's freedoms in other areas (gay rights, company health insurance that covers birth control, etc.)

[Samurai_Jerk]

I don't give a fuck what women wear. Actually, I lie. Personally, I would prefer women wore nothing. To be honest, though, it's none of my fucken business. She should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever she likes.
I've got strong opinions on this issue, though. As someone with lifelong left wing beliefs, I'm disgusted that so many allegedly progressive thinkers are sticking up for the burqini. All in all, this repressive item of clothing is a fucken imposition on women, as frequently happens with cults. All the cult rules on dress are fucked. But even more fucked are the huge numbers of otherwise sensible people defending (and perpetuating) them. My tolerance doesn't extend to repressive cults, particularly one that keeps its women stuffed in bags. The left should be joining in opposition to the burqini, too, in my not-so-humble-opinion.
This is another example of how the left has been utterly bedazzled by bullshit over the past few decades, drawn away from real issues to superficial and often semantic matters.

You're right that the left has been abysmal on this but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that as a general rule we shouldn't give a fuck what people wear but we need to draw the line legally at the various forms of hijab or that people should be able to wear whatever they want but the line should be drawn philosophically? If it's the latter, I agree but I'm not sure what form our disapproval should take. What they're doing in France right now kind of reminds me of the Shah's jack-booted attempts to secularize Iran and look how that turned out. Not that the current demographics in France make an Islamic revolution likely anytime soon but these types of things do tend to make hardliners even harder. I guess it did work in Turkey till Erdogan's recent rise to power but I don't know if it would have without the nationalism, ethnic chauvinism, and genocide that went along with forming that secular Turkish identity.

It really is too bad the Middle East is where the oil had to be. Otherwise, it would just be a quaint place to have a desert holiday, ride camels, eat with your hands, see some belly dancing, and take in the exotic beauty of the world's most ancient cultures. Instead far too many deal were made with far too many devils that are going to keep coming for our souls.

[wagyl]

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

If you are looking for someone who will have an unbending stance when it comes to following fine rules and distinctions between what is and is not in compliance, no grey areas tolerated, then pick an Orthodox Jew.
It is arguable whether that is always the best response to law enforcement. The other extreme is just as problematic.

[Grumpy Gramps]

The US is a lot more progressive than Europe when it comes to religious freedom

I know that well, it were people from the city where I grew up who were drowned, tortured and killed by "christians"; and they had to flee across the whole world in the 16th century until they found new relatively peaceful homes in the Americas; just because they refused to baptise their babies - Mennonites, Amish etc. (--> Link: No need to read all this )

Europeans have a long and extremely bloody history of religious jihad, like the crusades, the inquisition, the burning of witches etc. So for me it's no surprise that things like the banning of minarets in Switzerland, the presumable ban of the burkha in several European countries and also the French burkini-ban are happening. Like the whaling in Japan, it is just the continuation of an old, bloody, unnecessary tradition, which refuses to be called a bad habit that should be shed.

OTOH, the ethnic cleansing that the Yanks did to the native Americans, is also not exactly tolerant or progressive, so the reason for this tolerance against other believes/lifestyles is for a European like me a little hard to grasp.

[Samurai_Jerk]

OTOH, the ethnic cleansing that the Yanks did to the native Americans, is also not exactly tolerant or progressive, so the reason for this tolerance against other believes/lifestyles is for a European like me a little hard to grasp.

Largely carried about by European immigrants and their children. Maybe the more generations we put between us and the rot of the Old World the more tolerant we become.

But seriously, my point wasn't to say the US is necessarily better than Europe. It was that American-style religiosity is the reason we've been relatively good when it comes to religious freedom at an official level since the country was founded not a reason to be surprised by that tolerance. The original colonies were not so tolerant and there has been plenty of religious discrimination by individuals but the US has never had a state religion and the First Amendment of the Constitution guarantees continued church-state separation along with religious freedom both of which the Supreme Court has upheld with great consistency.

From the time we're children in elementary school we're taught that America was founded by people fleeing religious persecution in Europe. Of course they're not the only group we learn about but they're definitely one of the most important ones. We're taught that religious freedom is just as important as freedom of speech and the right to bear arms. One could argue about how true that's been historically but it's definitely part of our national identity. Unlike French secularism American secularism has never been about keeping religion out of the public sphere. It's been about letting people openly express their faith regardless of what it was and the public and private sectors are supposed to make reasonable accommodations to allow this.

The reason the Bible thumpers support this is they're worried they could be next.

[legion]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

To be fair, not much grey area where you stand if you are a member of the Rockland County Mein Kamf book circle.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

To be fair, not much grey area where you stand if you are a member of the Rockland County Mein Kamf book circle.

In that case the deciding factor wouldn't be religious attire though, would it?

[yanpa]

Turkeys voting for... something

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I don't give a fuck what women wear. Actually, I lie. Personally, I would prefer women wore nothing. To be honest, though, it's none of my fucken business. She should be able to wear (or not wear) whatever she likes.
I've got strong opinions on this issue, though. As someone with lifelong left wing beliefs, I'm disgusted that so many allegedly progressive thinkers are sticking up for the burqini. All in all, this repressive item of clothing is a fucken imposition on women, as frequently happens with cults. All the cult rules on dress are fucked. But even more fucked are the huge numbers of otherwise sensible people defending (and perpetuating) them. My tolerance doesn't extend to repressive cults, particularly one that keeps its women stuffed in bags. The left should be joining in opposition to the burqini, too, in my not-so-humble-opinion.
This is another example of how the left has been utterly bedazzled by bullshit over the past few decades, drawn away from real issues to superficial and often semantic matters.

You're right that the left has been abysmal on this but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that as a general rule we shouldn't give a fuck what people wear but we need to draw the line legally at the various forms of hijab or that people should be able to wear whatever they want but the line should be drawn philosophically? If it's the latter, I agree but I'm not sure what form our disapproval should take. What they're doing in France right now kind of reminds me of the Shah's jack-booted attempts to secularize Iran and look how that turned out. Not that the current demographics in France make an Islamic revolution likely anytime soon but these types of things do tend to make hardliners even harder. I guess it did work in Turkey till Erdogan's recent rise to power but I don't know if it would have without the nationalism, ethnic chauvinism, and genocide that went along with forming that secular Turkish identity.

It really is too bad the Middle East is where the oil had to be. Otherwise, it would just be a quaint place to have a desert holiday, ride camels, eat with your hands, see some belly dancing, and take in the exotic beauty of the world's most ancient cultures. Instead far too many deal were made with far too many devils that are going to keep coming for our souls.

You're right. I'm not clear. The issue the left should be fighting for is strict separation of religion and the state.

[wagyl]

You're right. I'm not clear. The issue the left should be fighting for is strict separation of religion and the state.

That is all very easy to say, but is marriage a religious issue or a secular issue? What about bigamy? The very fact that the US (other nation states prohibiting bigamy are available) prohibits bigamy shows that the state is supporting some religions to the exclusion of others.

[Samurai_Jerk]

You're right. I'm not clear. The issue the left should be fighting for is strict separation of religion and the state.

That is all very easy to say, but is marriage a religious issue or a secular issue? What about bigamy? The very fact that the US (other nation states prohibiting bigamy are available) prohibits bigamy shows that the state is supporting some religions to the exclusion of others.

Forgive me for being pedantic but I think you mean polygamy since bigamy would be the offence of polygamy. In other words if polygamy is legal, bigamy isn't possible.

Bigamy laws in the US are an interesting example since they came about specifically to persecute Mormons and have never been overturned. The small L libertarian in me thinks you should be able to marry as many people as you want but I have also heard convincing social arguments as to why it's not a good thing. And those are arguments that don't apply to say gay marriage.

[wagyl]

Then of course there are those religions where the Holy Books approve of polygamy...

It is a minefield, I tell you.

[Wage Slave]

It is a minefield, I tell you.

Indeed, it is. Although a strict separation of church and state makes the wearing of a burkini issue very simple for lefties as well as everyone else. There are simply no grounds at all for the state to intervene.

I'm not sure where lefties are supposed to go on this. Full on Marxist informed communism and campaign for an outright ban all forms of religious belief and expression? Or maintain a blacklist of religions and religious practices that are expressly forbidden? Or, accept what happens now - In general you are free do believe/do anything you like but you have to stay within criminal and civil law no matter what your religious beliefs may be.

It isn't and shouldn't be illegal to have or to enforce dress codes - much as Lord's annoy me with their nonsense about jackets and ties. At least jeans are OK though.

[Samurai_Jerk]

accept what happens now - In general you are free do believe/do anything you like but you have to stay within criminal and civil law no matter what your religious beliefs may be.

I like the status quo. Of course there will always be those test cases and sometimes the ultimate decision will be the wrong one but generally we're better off with a live and let live attitude.

But ...

Often with these things people will bring up the kids. Sure adult Muslim women can choose to cover up but not the girls. And even with adults unless they're converts you can argue they don't really have a choice because of brain washing and pressure from their community. The problem with that is we tend to focus on things like dress because they're easy targets. It's easy to ban something you can literally see right before your eyes. Isn't the real problem the underlying philosophy though? And isn't that philosophy also very damaging to boys? Do we as a society want to go into the messy complicated business of policing the moral codes parents teach their children?

[Wage Slave]

Sure adult Muslim women can choose to cover up but not the girls. And even with adults unless they're converts you can argue they don't really have a choice because of brain washing and pressure from their community. The problem with that is we tend to focus on things like dress because they're easy targets. It's easy to ban something you can literally see right before your eyes. Isn't the real problem the underlying philosophy though? And isn't that philosophy also very damaging to boys? Do we as a society want to go into the messy complicated business of policing the moral codes parents teach their children?

And if we are going to target Muslim beliefs/parenting, then surely we will have tackle Hasidic and other orthodox Judaism, The Amish, Mormans, and all manner of independent bible believing churches.

Again it's not perfect, but that's why I think the education system needs to be kept rigorously separate from religious bias. That doesn't mean that religion is not studied, quite the opposite, and nor should it mean that religious events and festivals that have meaning in the community are not recognised and celebrated but that's where we have a right to establish the liberal democratic principles that, in the public domain, override religious belief.

[Coligny]

Two brainfarts out of the blue:

1:

Question: At what age are Muslim girls expected to start wearing the hijab?

Answer: In Islam, all individuals become responsible and accountable for their behavior at the age of puberty. (...) Therefore, it is expected at this age for Muslim girls to adapt more modest styles of dress that do not expose too much.

2:
If a woman have to wear burkakini because she is forced by her husband. It's a domestic abuse issue. Not a religious one.

[Grumpy Gramps]

If a woman have to wear burkakini because she is forced by her husband. It's a domestic abuse issue. Not a religious one.

Sometimes I think that there might be a deeper, more primal reason for this type of thing: Most every female animal will instinctively look for the strongest male to mate with in order to give their offsping the best possible genes so they have a good chance to grow up and be successful in live.

Maybe deep inside the human instincts, a similar thing is still alive and the girls subconsciously like the machos/bullies (or money) best and then put up with that type of shit in order to give their kids a potentially better future? Wrap this up in a wise saying/philosophy/religion and born is the burkha/chastity belt/Madame vs. mademoiselle etc. This may sound sexist, but then I think, we humans are by no means as far advanced from the animals as we would like to think.

[Russell]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

Obviously, it also applies to male cops.

[legion]

If a woman have to wear burkakini because she is forced by her husband. It's a domestic abuse issue. Not a religious one.

Sometimes I think that there might be a deeper, more primal reason for this type of thing: Most every female animal will instinctively look for the strongest male to mate with in order to give their offsping the best possible genes so they have a good chance to grow up and be successful in live.

Maybe deep inside the human instincts, a similar thing is still alive and the girls subconsciously like the machos/bullies (or money) best and then put up with that type of shit in order to give their kids a potentially better future? Wrap this up in a wise saying/philosophy/religion and born is the burkha/chastity belt/Madame vs. mademoiselle etc. This may sound sexist, but then I think, we humans are by no means as far advanced from the animals as we would like to think.

except the cultures that insist women cover up generally don't allow them to choose their marriage partner

[Russell]

[Samurai_Jerk]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

Obviously, it also applies to male cops.

If it doesn't interfere with their ability or that of their collegues to carry out their job, why does it matter?

[Grumpy Gramps]

except the cultures that insist women cover up generally don't allow them to choose their marriage partner

Husband and father of child don't need to the same bloke

[matsuki]

If a woman have to wear burkakini because she is forced by her husband. It's a domestic abuse issue. Not a religious one.

Sometimes I think that there might be a deeper, more primal reason for this type of thing: Most every female animal will instinctively look for the strongest male to mate with in order to give their offsping the best possible genes so they have a good chance to grow up and be successful in live.

Maybe deep inside the human instincts, a similar thing is still alive and the girls subconsciously like the machos/bullies (or money) best and then put up with that type of shit in order to give their kids a potentially better future? Wrap this up in a wise saying/philosophy/religion and born is the burkha/chastity belt/Madame vs. mademoiselle etc. This may sound sexist, but then I think, we humans are by no means as far advanced from the animals as we would like to think.

I heard some drunk Mixed Euro group saying the opposite the other night. They were claiming it's the men that "can't control their rape instinct so it's the women's responsibility to prevent temptation. Just look at the rape they're committing in Europe!" The J-girl with them was asking if Burkas/Muslims are from India so you can imagine how hard it was not to let them hear me laughing.

[wagyl]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

Obviously, it also applies to male cops.

If it doesn't interfere with their ability or that of their collegues to carry out their job, why does it matter?

Don't you know anything!!!??? Their freedom to wear what they like (including the freedom to adopt clothing to fit in with a certain culture, even if that may appear to a different culture to be acquiescence to a limitation on their freedoms) interferes with MY freedom to demand that everyone else has the same values as I do.

I'll ignore the fact that the gratuitous addition of the word "female" makes it far far from obvious that the same idea applies to males too.

[Coligny]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

Obviously, it also applies to male cops.

If it doesn't interfere with their ability or that of their collegues to carry out their job, why does it matter?

separation church/state maybe...

[Russell]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

Obviously, it also applies to male cops.

If it doesn't interfere with their ability or that of their collegues to carry out their job, why does it matter?

Don't you know anything!!!??? Their freedom to wear what they like (including the freedom to adopt clothing to fit in with a certain culture, even if that may appear to a different culture to be acquiescence to a limitation on their freedoms) interferes with MY freedom to demand that everyone else has the same values as I do.

I'll ignore the fact that the gratuitous addition of the word "female" makes it far far from obvious that the same idea applies to males too.

You're thinking too deeply. I only added "female", because this thread started with that proposition.

[Russell]

Burkini is fine with me, but I do have a problem with female cops walking around in religious attire.

Yes! This is the core issue.
Well said, Russell!

What about male cops?

deputy.jpg

For the record that's a sheriff in Rockland County, NY.

Obviously, it also applies to male cops.

If it doesn't interfere with their ability or that of their collegues to carry out their job, why does it matter?

separation church/state maybe...

Why is it that you seem to be the only one who gets it?

Yes, and when a cop wears religious attire, it puts in doubt his/her impartiality.