When the looting starts, the shooting starts ...

[Isle of View]

. . .

However, there appears to be an institutional racist policy against black people. I trust the opinion of black people more in this matter than white people, because the latter don't experience the racism in person.

I had no idea that the Emancipation Proclamation, the Civil Rights Act, and mandatory affirmative action are institutionalized racism against blacks.

She has a point.

Chicago

[matsuki]

I wonder why you keep bringing up Floyd's criminal record, because it is irrelevant.

First of all, the guy was under control by the cops, so it does not make any difference that he should not have been treated that way.

Second, by focusing on his criminal record you appear to justify the violence of police to all black people. After all, they made bad choices in life, didn't they, so that's why they were killed, and so on? So, you have your data point (Floys), then let me give you my data point (and many more if you wish): how about the murder by cops of Breonna Taylor? They had a warrant for her boy friend of 2 years ago who happened to be already in police custody. Just a case of "trigger happy"? Or a case of "don't care because it is in a black neighborhood"?

・Yes, it's one among many secondary issues, irrelevant to his murder. There is no excuse/issue his death. I thought I made that pretty clear.
・That being said, it is worth bringing up because it shows the guy was a career criminal, not a martyr or a sign that any innocent black person should fear they will be stopped by the police and murdered. The drugs in his system and the crime he has just committed are relevant to the racial narrative because it shows the police stopping and arresting him was a legit action. In other words, no systematic racism though the cop who killed him may have been racist.

Ouch, that is a lot of links. Care to be a bit more specific about the point you are trying to make?

Ok, let's use an example:

Black people make up 15% of the population, whites the other 85%.

100 black people commit crimes and are arrested in a year and 6 of them are killed. 2 of the killed were unarmed.
50 white people commit crimes and are arrested, 3 of them are killed, 1 of them were unarmed.

150 interactions with police total.

You can say twice as many black people were arrested as whites. You can say twice as many blacks are killed by police than whites. You can say twice as many unarmed blacks were killed than whites. You can say 6 blacks were killed by police and only 2 were charged. You can make all kinds of racists sounding claims about that data as the link you posted has done. It makes people angry, emotional, and feel there is a massive racial element involved here...

-BUT-

Look at the percentages on that data, totally the same and there is nothing that indicates "systematic racism" with the police. Even less so when you consider black cops were involved in the killings. You may not want to believe it but the one percentage that doesn't line up is where you have black people committing crimes at rates well above whites for their population. That's where the largest problem lies.

You also have, regardless of race, 3 unarmed people shot and killed by police. All 3 of those are tragedies but without more detail, the same claim cannot be assumed about the 6 armed people who were shot by police. 3 unarmed people shot by police is 3 too many, that is a problem of trigger-happy cops.

Yes, there are racist cops and yes, they need to be weeded out...but unless you can point to specific data, policies, etc. that say otherwise, there is no "systematic racism," just a lot of angry people who feel like there is.

However, there appears to be an institutional racist policy against black people.

Which specific policy is that? If you can't point that out, how can you make that claim?

I trust the opinion of black people more in this matter than white people, because the latter don't experience the racism in person.

Half my family and I are "people of color." (though depending on the stats, we're either labelled as Native American, Hispanic, or even white) We're not black but I've seen both racism and compassion from more angles than you can conceive. I can't stand people who call black on white racism "reverse racism" as if white people were the only ones capable of "racism." It doesn't matter who it's coming from and who it's targeting, it's all racism. If it matters to you, my opinion on all this is waaaay too much emphasis is placed on race and not enough on economic status. My theory is the less resistance there is for people on the bottom to climb up to a comfortable/safe place in society, the less issues there will be with race, policing, etc. That means things like universal healthcare, education, vocational training, etc. should be better funded. There's always gonna be people fucked up and beyond help in every society but people need to realize it's worth investing in the people on the bottom with the will to climb up, rather than spending more later on policing when they are unable to make that climb and/or crime is the choice they make.

[matsuki]

. . .

However, there appears to be an institutional racist policy against black people. I trust the opinion of black people more in this matter than white people, because the latter don't experience the racism in person.

I had no idea that the Emancipation Proclamation, the Civil Rights Act, and mandatory affirmative action are institutionalized racism against blacks.

She has a point.

Chicago

THIS x 9999999999999

The sad thing is all those positive black male role models that are speaking out against the claims of systematic racism and oppression....they get written off as race traitors. The current narrative is "defund all police!!!" That's the proposed solution here? Da FAQ??

[Wage Slave]

Katie Hopkins? Seriously? You think that she is representative of black people's opinions? Or is worth listening to on any topic?

[Mike Oxlong]

Katie Hopkins? Seriously? You think that she is representative of black people's opinions? Or is worth listening to on any topic?

THIS is what I find racist - this assumption that black people are a distinct group with a singular voice. That there's no diversity of opinion in the group. Then there's what counts as black? 100% sub-Saharan African roots, at least 50% of your roots from there, will a quarter black suffice? Where is the magical line where suddenly all the melanin gifted people have such unity that one voice can speak for all?

[Wage Slave]

You think that Katie Hopkins is qualified to speak as a representative of black people? And you think it is racist to say she is not? Golly gosh. That's original thinking for sure. I don't even think she would claim that. In any case, she has been sacked from various right wing media organisations for not sticking to the truth and she has been successfully sued for libel. Not the most reliable of sources under any circumstances.

Next, are you going to claim that famous non racist Tacky Takealotofcokeupthenos can speak for the black community?

[Mike Oxlong]

You think that Katie Hopkins is qualified to speak as a representative of black people? And you think it is racist to say she is not? Golly gosh. That's original thinking for sure. I don't even think she would claim that. In any case, she has been sacked from various right wing media organisations for not sticking to the truth and she has been successfully sued for libel. Not the most reliable of sources under any circumstances.

Next, are you going to claim that famous non racist Tacky Takealotofcokeupthenos can speak for the black community?

Wait, wut?! Right wing news orgs care about the truth!?

Don't know Kate, don't care what she said. Just the notion that there is only one opinion that is allowed if one is black is pretty darn racist. Kinda like this old coot...

[Wage Slave]

[quote="Mike Oxlong"
Wait, wut?! Right wing news orgs care about the truth!?
[/quote]

They do when it risks them getting their cheque book out. She has a bad habit of attacking people personally and then losing in court. Just twisting the truth and sly racism is fine though.

People can have their opinions - whether they speak for anyone other than themselves is another question. Ms Hopkins speaks for a small, fringe group of white people who have far right views.

[Russell]

However, there appears to be an institutional racist policy against black people. I trust the opinion of black people more in this matter than white people, because the latter don't experience the racism in person.

Ok, let's hear their opinions...

Please tell us more about black opinion Russ.

Cheap shot. Among all races, you'll find right-wing opinions, so black Americans are no exception. Ben Carson: LOL. The majority of black Americans have different opinions.

[Mike Oxlong]

Cheap shot. Among all races, you'll find right-wing opinions, so black Americans are no exception. Ben Carson: LOL. The majority of black Americans have different opinions.

Good for you. A bit farther along than Slave. As for the majority, reports suggest that 60% of African Americans still supports the Dems, but that is far fewer than in the first Obama admin, so progress.

[Scipio]

Good for you. A bit farther along than Slave.

Are you for real or were you just blinded by the density of content by the number of videos that were posted and didn't watch them?

That was, and is, a mish-mash of incoherent messaging, from Don Lemon to Denzil.

My time is valuable but Just as a critique of the white upper class beech video, with the picture of Donald retard jnr in the background I say...

'BLM is not about White/Black homicide crime, or Black/Black homicide crime. It's about people who hold a position of authority in society (outside of Africa and Asia, usually white people) having prejudice against people of color and allowing that prejudice to influence their actions - which in America, can have fatal consequences with minimal penalties. If a black person doesn't like me, he can stop me dating his sister or drinking in the same bar as him. Other than that, without committing a blatant crime against me and in all probability paying a heavy criminal penalty, his prejudice doesn't affect my life. This woman is a total upper class British a-hole, who I wouldn't piss on, if she was on fire' and she would do likewise for me. Give me the complaints of some Afro-Carib / African-American Joe, than this silly woman who, in all likelihood, spends the day complaining to her other deadbeat lazy privileged friends, over afternoon drinks, about the under par housework of her illegal Mexican domestics.

Wage, opines, whether you agree or disagree with the opinion, I don't have to wade through 1 hour of incoherent BS videos., but get it first hand.

Get a grip.

[Isle of View]

In the US, the leading cause of death among young black men between the ages of 15 and 34 is homicide.
An incredible 51% for black males between the ages of 15 to 19.
Not by whites, not by hispanics, not by asians, not by the police, but at the hands of other young black men.

US CDC | Death: Leading causes for 2017 [PDF; Page 34]

So the most dangerous place for young black men is the urban inner city jungle.

What do the major US cities that have experienced riots, looting, arson, and murder have in common?

Democrat Mayor
Democrat City Council
Democrat Police Chief
Democrat Attorney General
Democrat Governor
Democrat US Senators

Policing matters in the US are a local issue.

The Democratic party has had a lock on these cities for at least 6 decades.
Plenty of time to address the real issues. Instead they count on the so-called "black vote" to stay in power by playing the victim card.

It's not an economic problem and/or a discrimination problem, but rather a cultural problem of a subset of the US black population.

BLM is nonsense, social media driven mass hysteria of the dumbest people on the planet. The chattering classes' "useful idiots".

[wangta]

Undeniable truth by isles. For the record I have never voted conservative in my life but the broad left side of politics has become increasingly shameless about cherry picking when it comes to key issues like racism - and its definitions, contexts, etc.

I am honestly amazed by the hypocrisy being run daily in the media - just about all of the media have adopted a blanket response of how 'White America' daily oppresses black people and this is the justifiable payback. This response is not so blatant in some cases but the ante has been upped more and more as cities burn, ordinary people get caught up in the violent and vile mess, and the Dimocrats refuse to make any kind of public statements that I know of condemning violence.

What I see is culture shift facilitated to a large extent by the media. The focus has been on the black underclass for some time and in popular culture the music of hiphop for example has been used by the big music conglomerates to promote the low class black lifestyle. Rappers with little in the way of logical or rational skills in debate have been allowed to take centre stage, glorification of violence as the way to conduct your relationships with others has been promoted, etc.

You don't have to be a reactionary to dislike it - in fact I've been into hiphop for a long time and that's why I've noticed the worst artists being pushed by the music industry over the last decade or so. When they speak on issues it's a one way monologue of blacks as victims, white America as the problem, and discussed in extremely simple terms while the media lauds them as supposedly 'smart' and 'spokespersons'.

The black middle class and upper middle class seem to have more members who have joined this narrative and feel angrier and angrier about how they actually made an effort to get along with whites. This comes from the left side of political thinking and instead of a focus on the real gains that have been made in affirmative action for example that allowed their parents and many of them the opportunities to climb the ladder with quotas etc, there has been a shift to more aggressive rhetoric along the lines of the black underclass.

This has been aided and abetted by the Dimocrats and of course the Republicans haven't provided any alternative. Trump was friendly pre-political activity with many different people including black celebrities but lost their goodwill through his decision not to take a unifying approach to his presidency. More conservative blacks can't get any real conversations going as the broader black community supports political parties on the left side. Canadace Williams and others get painted as 'self-haters' and it's easy to do that through the media which runs the broad left narrative. Actually Fox these days looks like a model of fair reporting compared to the Orwellian inversions being run by other media - that's saying something.

What the Dimocrats are doing is vile - encouraging the mob by their silence and hysterically accusing the president they hate of everything from their own politicans' fuck ups in the corona virus pandemic - great, let's put patients in nursing homes with old people oin Detroit, New York and Cali! - to their own Dimocrat-led problems of policing. Excusing the kind of hate and lawlessness we've seen recently by blaming Trump and spouting cowardly rhetoric that justifies destruction if you're black is both gutlessness and propaganda.

Many people in the US including those of goodwill who voted for Obama and the Dimocrats will be the silent protesters at the ballot box - if the Dimocrats don't get their way and impose online voting which of course is open to fraud. They won't just be white - they will be Asian, Hispanic and aspirational Africans/African Americans.

[matsuki]

It's not an economic problem and/or a discrimination problem, but rather a cultural problem of a subset of the US black population.

Like I pointed out and you backed up with that video, all the recent black immigrants to the US I know/knew seem to feel this way. I can only paraphrase but Tunde said it was like a culture of feeling entitled to success, being told you're oppressed, and dismissing successful people as "lucky" vs. a culture of appreciating the opportunity to be responsible for one's own success and recognizing how hard successful people work to earn it.

[Wage Slave]

It's not an economic problem and/or a discrimination problem, but rather a cultural problem of a subset of the US black population.

Like I pointed out and you backed up with that video, all the recent black immigrants to the US I know/knew seem to feel this way. I can only paraphrase but Tunde said it was like a culture of feeling entitled to success, being told you're oppressed, and dismissing successful people as "lucky" vs. a culture of appreciating the opportunity to be responsible for one's own success and recognizing how hard successful people work to earn it.

Yeah. Can I just point out the recent white immigrants to the UK feel exactly the same way. They think that working in the hospitality industry, or care industry or seafood processing or fruit and vegetable picking is an opportunity to be responsible for their own success. In sharp contrast, there is a cultural problem in a subsection of the white population. They wallow in self pity and rage, blaming the EU and free movement for robbing them of the success to which they feel they are entitled. They dismiss successful people as "lucky" or as corruptly benefiting from Globalisation and metropolitan elitism. They constantly blame other people and things like school and the government for their failures and don't rule out violence as a way to solve the problem.

[matsuki]

It's not an economic problem and/or a discrimination problem, but rather a cultural problem of a subset of the US black population.

Like I pointed out and you backed up with that video, all the recent black immigrants to the US I know/knew seem to feel this way. I can only paraphrase but Tunde said it was like a culture of feeling entitled to success, being told you're oppressed, and dismissing successful people as "lucky" vs. a culture of appreciating the opportunity to be responsible for one's own success and recognizing how hard successful people work to earn it.

Yeah. Can I just point out the recent white immigrants to the UK feel exactly the same way. They think that working in the hospitality industry, or care industry or seafood processing or fruit and vegetable picking is an opportunity to be responsible for their own success. In sharp contrast, there is a cultural problem in a subsection of the white population. They wallow in self pity and rage, blaming the EU and free movement for robbing them of the success to which they feel they are entitled. They dismiss successful people as "lucky" or as corruptly benefiting from Globalisation and metropolitan elitism. They constantly blame other people and things like school and the government for their failures and don't rule out violence as a way to solve the problem.

Of course what Tunde was saying applies to everyone who feels entitled to have success presented to them on a silver platter without putting in the work to earn it. I don't know enough about the EU/UK situation to comment on that but entitled idiots of any country that make nothing of themselves, blaming motivated immigrants for robbing them of their potential should go spend some time in the country of origin of their deflection of responsibility...but we're getting off topic here, no? My point has been the racial element in police brutality is being overstated by some biased interpretation of the data available. The willful ignorance of data that disagrees with that agenda is recklessly propelling this shitstorm forward with anger/emotion towards a systematic boogieman that simply doesn't exist. Protesting police brutality, militarization, etc. I'm all for.

[Wage Slave]

Do you think poverty might be relevant to the cultural problem that a subset of both the black and white populations seem to have? I mean if you grow up in decent circumstances and get a decent education and find that you get decent chances to progress on the strength of your ability and hard work you might not get involved in or be the victim of crime? And you might make good progress at work and see your circumstances improve. But if you grow up in poverty and you find that teachers, employers and the police consistently and historically prejudge your abilities, capacity for work and honesty you might find it far more difficult to live a normal and respectable life. And even if you work really hard if you find you still have to put up with being policed on sight you might not have a positive view of the police.

In fact you used to quite often complain about the police here. I have never been in contact with them except for one surprise random breath test while driving near a local rice farmer festival which was definitely collateral damage for other people's naughtiness. The thing is I am not young and I live quietly so I never cross their path. They don't annoy me at all. You on the other hand are far more active and mobile so you cross their path far more. And being a young foreigner they are noticeably suspicious of you and want to check you out. I don't notice that you brush it off as just the way things go - in fact you get (and I am happy to accept, justifiably) very upset about it. Don't you think it might be even more annoying if you are in your home country and you have been putting up with this kind of annoyance and prejudgement all your life?

[matsuki]

Do you think poverty might be relevant to the cultural problem that a subset of both the black and white populations seem to have? I mean if you grow up in decent circumstances and get a decent education and find that you get decent chances to progress on the strength of your ability and hard work you might not get involved in or be the victim of crime? And you might make good progress at work and see your circumstances improve.

Yes, I said as much in a previous post. My friend Tunde was at the university on a scholarship and a grant. Hell, I made my first trip to Japan on a scholarship. I am totally for policies that support equal opportunities for all and second chances for people who want to better themselves. Better funding for public education, healthcare, housing, etc. everywhere is a good solution. It doesn't need to rely on race and my Navajo relatives still on the reservation would lead better lives along with anyone of any race in the US.

But if you grow up in poverty and you find that teachers, employers and the police consistently and historically prejudge your abilities, capacity for work and honesty you might find it far more difficult to live a normal and respectable life. And even if you work really hard if you find you still have to put up with being policed on sight you might not have a positive view of the police.

This is where I find the assumption that the prejudice is being overstated. Prejudice definitely still exists in 2020 'merica but society is pretty unified in calling it out when it occurs...to the point that people and companies walk on eggshells when dealing with anyone that could provoke a tsunami of outrage, even if it was unintended. It's not systematic racism, it's individual assholes and they can/should be taken on as they rear their ugly heads.

In fact you used to quite often complain about the police here. I have never been in contact with them except for one surprise random breath test while driving near a local rice farmer festival which was definitely collateral damage for other people's naughtiness. The thing is I am not young and I live quietly so I never cross their path. They don't annoy me at all. You on the other hand are far more active and mobile so you cross their path far more. And being a young foreigner they are noticeably suspicious of you and want to check you out. I don't notice that you brush it off as just the way things go - in fact you get (and I am happy to accept, justifiably) very upset about it. Don't you think it might be even more annoying if you are in your home country and you have been putting up with this kind of annoyance and prejudgement all your life?

Yes, being profiled sucks balls, makes you feel like you're assumed a criminal by race and not anything within your control. The difference is in the US, racial profiling has been declared unconstitutional - a violation of the U.S. Constitution’s 14th Amendment equal protection clause. In Japan, you aren't legally protected UNLESS you're a citizen. (Now that is institutional racism.) That being said, at least in the US, there is an avenue (albeit shitty one currently) for complaints. Let's be clear, I am all for reform with the police policies and putting an end to needless deaths/violence caused by police who are out of control. (and the immunity they often see after) We need more police accountability in soo many aspects.

[wangta]

When African American kids from blue collar/disadvantaged backgrounds go to 'charter schools' in New York and other urban areas with a lot of minorities especially black people - schools that have a strong academic focus, insistence on uniforms and standards of politeness and behavior not found in the public schools in their areas - they do very well.
They have teachers who are given the authority to make them respect their educational experience and they are told they can live up to higher and high standards. Parents are told they also have responsibilities re their kids' lifestyle and keeping up their education at home by doing their school homework, projects etc.

Contrast with the minority, mostly black public schools where local education authorities lack the means to impose standards including discipline and the kids certainly aren't getting it at home. It's not being moralistic to note that the higher rates of multiple children by different fathers in any ethnicity tends to lead to poverty and dysfunction when this kind of polygamy isn't an established societal custom with rules like it is in some parts of Africa and the Middle East, for example. Single mothers with good jobs and savings are going to be able to raise their children better than single mothers who left school early, had kids early and had them by different men floating in and out of their lives.

The same situation can be seen in lower income/disadvantaged whites. In Oz the broad left including moderate labour left get on their high horse when the realities of single mothers are mentioned - the welfare system is quite generous and actually encourages financially a single mother household. Many cases of child abuse come from the different fathers situation where the abused child is not the natural kid of the present boyfriend. Aboriginal people also tend to this form of polygamy but again, a structure which actually takes care of kids is very different from the instability and dysfunction of many Aboriginal households with no man present on a regular basis and with kids infrequently or never seeing their biological father.

The black lower/underclass in the USA is over-represented in violent crimes and in illegal activities which aren't always something that they haven't any choice about. Notice how the media rarely focuses on those black kids in the USA who do shitty jobs at fast food places to make their money legally and often have to put up with disrespect and the threat of violence, sometimes actual violence on the job from other blacks who come in as customers or to use the place as a hang-out or to get free stuff by robbery, but won't do that kind of legal work.

And wage slave's comments on the schooling of black kids from low class/underclass backgrounds doesn't really cut it. African American kids are affirmed in their identity in the school system, especially in those urban minority schools, there is continuous reference to black history, culture, slavery, past and modern black role models, etc. There are sociologists including conservative black ones who think the problem for such kids is a sense of victimization and therefore entitlement - they are taught to blame white racism and white society to the point that their actions are seen as justifiable in terms of black history and very real white oppression in that history.

The trouble is at some point, black people have to change themselves yet this need is projected onto of course the white society in general.

When these kids have many role models, everytime you turn on the TV or the net you see black people in positions of influence, there has been a black President of the USA, there is a raft of welfare entitlements like section 8 housing, school grants and university grants, quotas for university entry and govt plus other jobs, people in the black community in positions of influence especially in political parties, have to tell those kids and young people what they can do as individuals to improve their lives. However, the African American 'industry' is alive and well as Booker T Washington talked about back in the 20th century and in fact some whites and white groups energise it and benefit from it too.

[Mike Oxlong]

When African American kids from blue collar/disadvantaged backgrounds go to 'charter schools' in New York and other urban areas with a lot of minorities especially black people - schools that have a strong academic focus, insistence on uniforms and standards of politeness and behavior not found in the public schools in their areas - they do very well.
They have teachers who are given the authority to make them respect their educational experience and they are told they can live up to higher and high standards. Parents are told they also have responsibilities re their kids' lifestyle and keeping up their education at home by doing their school homework, projects etc.

Contrast with the minority, mostly black public schools where local education authorities lack the means to impose standards including discipline and the kids certainly aren't getting it at home. It's not being moralistic to note that the higher rates of multiple children by different fathers in any ethnicity tends to lead to poverty and dysfunction when this kind of polygamy isn't an established societal custom with rules like it is in some parts of Africa and the Middle East, for example. Single mothers with good jobs and savings are going to be able to raise their children better than single mothers who left school early, had kids early and had them by different men floating in and out of their lives.

Yeah, the Michaela School in London is delivering superb results giving disadvantaged kids a top class education. Work hard, be kind. No excuses. The method is proven and works for everyone in any place.

[Wage Slave]

Re that school.

1. Wembley isn't very deprived and nor are the students
2. Wembley is not very black and nor are the students
3. That school has powerful sponsors and champions, hence is well resourced
4. That school boasts of its average exam score but says nothing of it's completion rate. ie How many kids get chucked out or leave? If the high scores are a result of whittling down then it doesn't count for much. There are plenty of well resourced, selective schools with a good academic record. That's easy.

Personally, I wouldn't have lasted a term. How many Shakespeare plays? How many poems to remember by heart? Endless policing for uniform infringements. Staff who believe in pre WW2 values. I'll bet they wish they could beat - Or can they?

[matsuki]

Re that school....

...but we're all in agreement that better funding for education is a needed part of the solution if we want less people in shit situations? The poor areas with the poorly funded school systems are almost a guaranteed failure for many.

My first 2 years of HS were at a suuuper ghetto HS (home was/is in a upper middle class city with two separate school districts...HS send me to the ghetto in the city next door...a city that was wealthy but with it's own split school system issues and I was stuck in the worst of the worst that had a pretty dangerous reputation) and it was quite chaotic. Shit environment to learn in and was very distracting. Most kids were there because they had to be....and for many, it was simply a social gathering. My sports skills got me an audition and my foot in the door at a infinitely better HS on the other side of my own city for the second 2 years. I was able to keep up, took several AP classes and was still part of their GATE program "Gifted and Talented Education" at the elite level...but those first 2 years at the ghetto HS made me way lazy and it wasn't easy to get focused and interested in learning again. I honestly think 4 years in the Ghetto would have ruined me. (in more ways that one....the HS was on the news because someone placed pipe bombs all over the school during finals, Vice Principal was arrested for shacking up with a student, and I remember the school's accreditation coming into question a few years back....there were some nice teachers but overall, it was a shit school)

[Wage Slave]

You make a good point regarding sports providing an alternative field in which to achieve. The Micheala School is completely silent on that score - They converted an office block for the school so they likely have very limited or no sports facilities onsite. The emphasis is very much traditional talk and book based rote learning which is fine for a particular kind of person but will not deliver for everyone.

Personally, I would like to see far more effort, money and status given to vocational schools and better pathways to them. The sort of thing that is routine in Germany, Denmark and Holland but almost non existent in the UK. I think that's where a lot of people who fail to appreciate the benefits of studying Shakespeare plays and memorising classic poems would find motivation and a way to earn a decent living.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Same in Switzerland. You could literally start an apprenticeship as a blacksmith and there would be "skywalks" as they call them from your school over to other schools all the time; you might end up as an astrophysicist or medical doctor, if you wish and can. A god friend of mine, who had had an accident as a small child, which resulted in some brain damage, started an apprenticeship as a mason and ended up as an architect. Took him many many more years than anyone else, but it could be done in one smooth move.

Expats, mainly from the UK, who come to Switzerland longer term with their "my kid will only go to a good international school" attitude are often amazed by that and quickly switch their kids over to public schools, as the opportunities seem endless.

OTOH "nomads", who work in a number of countries during the education of their kids, really are probably better off with international schools, who have a common curriculum.

[matsuki]

You make a good point regarding sports providing an alternative field in which to achieve.

I would argue there are many fields...and they not be based on race.

Personally, I would like to see far more effort, money and status given to vocational schools and better pathways to them. The sort of thing that is routine in Germany, Denmark and Holland but almost non existent in the UK. I think that's where a lot of people who fail to appreciate the benefits of studying Shakespeare plays and memorising classic poems would find motivation and a way to earn a decent living.

I agree, trade schools seem to get far too easily dismissed. If you have mad skills at a trade and even halfway motivated, you won't find yourself unemployed.

[Wage Slave]

Same in Switzerland. You could literally start an apprenticeship as a blacksmith and there would be "skywalks" as they call them from your school over to other schools all the time; you might end up as an astrophysicist or medical doctor, if you wish and can. A god friend of mine, who had had an accident as a small child, which resulted in some brain damage, started an apprenticeship as a mason and ended up as an architect. Took him many many more years than anyone else, but it could be done in one smooth move.

Expats, mainly from the UK, who come to Switzerland longer term with their "my kid will only go to a good international school" attitude are often amazed by that and quickly switch their kids over to public schools, as the opportunities seem endless.

OTOH "nomads", who work in a number of countries during the education of their kids, really are probably better off with international schools, who have a common curriculum.

Those skywalks sound excellent and are something that barely exists in the UK. The UK does not like looking to see what other people are doing and just adopting. An excellent example is the nonsense recently about a world beating system for track and trace when all that was necessary was to look at countries that have done it well and do the same. Meanwhile of course, the locally developed world beating system incorporating British common sense and pizzazz doesn't really work.

[Mike Oxlong]

Track and trace is a joke. 77% of test positive contacts asymptomatic. Per the WHO's own very recent update, those people do not infect others. Game over.

[Wage Slave]

Are you sure about that?

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/who-comments-breed-confusion-over-asymptomatic-spread-of-covid-19-67626

[matsuki]

Are you sure about that?

Nobody is sure either way. Many of the US prison pops are loaded with asymptomatic 'rona.

[Mike Oxlong]

Re that school.

4. That school boasts of its average exam score but says nothing of it's completion rate. ie How many kids get chucked out or leave? If the high scores are a result of whittling down then it doesn't count for much. There are plenty of well resourced, selective schools with a good academic record. That's easy.

In the Ofsted report linked on the school's homepage, you'll find the following:

• Fewer pupils join and leave the school partway through their secondary education compared with pupils nationally.