Toyota is making 'real food' while Tesla offers a 'recipe'

[matsuki]

During an online conference following Toyota’s latest financial results, CEO Akio Toyoda said about Tesla (via Bloomberg):

Tesla says that their recipe will be the standard in the future, but what Toyota has is a real kitchen and a real chef. We are losing when it comes to the share price, but when it comes to products, we have a full menu that will be chosen by customers.

The CEO continues with the cooking analogy:

They aren’t really making something that’s real, people are just buying the recipe. We have the kitchen and chef, and we make real food.

Tesla is currently valued by the market at over $400 billion while Toyota is worth just over $200 billion.

In 2010, Toyota invested $50 million in Tesla and they brokered a heavily discounted sale of the Nummi factory, which is now Tesla’s Fremont factory.

The automaker sold its stake in Tesla for a good profit in 2017, but it was still only a fraction of what it would be worth today.

https://electrek.co/2020/11/06/toyota-c ... g-analogy/



It was fun while it lasted...bye bye Toyota...

[Grumpy Gramps]

Ha, they all don't reckon with the mighty Changli:

[matsuki]

Hahahahaha, fake it if you can't (afford to) make it?

Tesla's "recipe" is already selling like hotcakes

...and will be able to make more hotcakes, cheaper, lighter, faster, etc. etc.

R.I.P. Toyota

[matsuki]

Hybrid vehicles sales are dropping as battery electric sales rise...no wonder Toyoda is soo salty.

[Coligny]

You really like toy cars or is it just a coping mechanism from having the ghay for electric jesus steroid beefcake Elon ?

[Wage Slave]

However, as a stock pick I have to say it is stellar. Nothing I have ever picked comes even close. Amazing.

[Russell]

Hybrid vehicles sales are dropping as battery electric sales rise...no wonder Toyoda is soo salty.

Is there evidence for Hybrid sales dropping?

I have been looking around for electric cars, but found the offers on the market underwhelming.

And then there was Toyota, who asked me whether I was interested in their Hydrogen vehicle. Nope, LOL.

[matsuki]

You really like toy cars or is it just a coping mechanism from having the ghay for electric jesus steroid beefcake Elon ?

My boner is for...

However, as a stock pick I have to say it is stellar. Nothing I have ever picked comes even close. Amazing.

Tesla added an extra digit to my portfolio...this month it may add another.

Toyota's Hydrogen restaurant still taking orders by fax, genkinnomi, meanwhile....

Hybrid vehicles sales are dropping as battery electric sales rise...no wonder Toyoda is soo salty.

Is there evidence for Hybrid sales dropping?

I have been looking around for electric cars, but found the offers on the market underwhelming.

And then there was Toyota, who asked me whether I was interested in their Hydrogen vehicle. Nope, LOL.

Yes, loads of it. Pick your market and google it. Basically a significant chunk of the wealthy, green thinking people that were buying hybrid (not just prius but Honda, etc) are buying electric. Then you have people coming over from the "premium" brands.

What do you have against the Model 3 or Model Y? If I didn't like my SUV as much as I do, I would have sold it and ordered a Model 3 already.

Hydrogen is a joke....the mirai is insanely J-gov subsidised and it's not practical for most people. You hear Hydrogen promoters constantly point out "the lack of charging infrastructure" but they fail to realize plugging in at home means you only need to seek out a charge when road tripping. (and the fact that it's already more vast than the Hydrogen infrastructure and that technically, any outlet can do in a pinch)

[Coligny]

Tesla hardware support is horrific
Software support is nightmarish
Build quality is lousy
They are extremely hostile with customer self repair/maintenance.

That start to make a lot no ? Just waiting for the hyperloop hoax to collapse too and see what happens to electric Jeesus...

Mitsubishi is unbearable shit too, but the parts you can’t get second hand on amazon japan can usually be found on a ditch by the side of the road... except front bumpers... that stuff is harder to find than bottled unicorm farts... or gamer gurl bath water...

[matsuki]

Tesla hardware support is horrific
Software support is nightmarish
Build quality is lousy
They are extremely hostile with customer self repair/maintenance.

That start to make a lot no ? Just waiting for the hyperloop hoax to collapse too and see what happens to electric Jeesus...

Mitsubishi is unbearable shit too, but the parts you can’t get second hand on amazon japan can usually be found on a ditch by the side of the road... except front bumpers... that stuff is harder to find than bottled unicorm farts... or gamer gurl bath water...

I've never heard about software support complaints but the initial quality concerns, lack of a good supply of repair parts, and their disapproval of customer self repair/modifications have all been concerns. I'll add one issue, insuring them can be very expensive. (though it is unwarranted)

What are they doing about it?

Constant quality and tech improvements are being made, it's not like a traditional manufacturer that waits til the next year to make changes or improvements. Quality increases with time and with downloadable software updates, the vehicles will improve AFTER the purchase. The supply of repair parts and service centers are expanding. I think with the new press-based manufacturing they are pursuing, the massive reduction in parts will help with both initial quality and parts availability. They are already offering their own insurance and expanding it quickly.

My only remaining concern is their take on owner repair and modification. I believe they will need to cave in on owner repair but when it comes to modification, it's hard to argue it's reasonable for them to void your warranty when you modify certain aspects of the vehicle. Other modifications, not so much. The other issue is their charging network. Besides voiding your warranty, they stopped certifying repaired vehicles and they have even blacklisted vehicles from using the network. It seems unfair but I imagine the concern is poorly repaired vehicles causing fires or other chaos when charging and the liability/bad press that comes with it. If they brought back the certification for repaired (and modified vehicles) that would be a good way to allow the ownership more freedom while limiting risk. Pay to certify repairs/mods and Tesla wouldn't even need to tie up too much money in it.

Do you actually mean HyperLoop or the Boring Company tunnels? Las Vegas will be the litmus test if the latter...

dims[1].jpg

https://www.engadget.com/boring-company ... 51653.html

[Coligny]

Hyperloop: the vaccum tube transport project

Tesla software: remote disabling superfast charging capabilities on rebuild cars (youtuber issues, one of them just ditched working on tesla altogethher)

[Grumpy Gramps]

Teslas get surprisingly much "bad press" on YouTube. Not sure, whether it's my "channel-bias" or if there is anything to it.

[Coligny]

Teslas get surprisingly much "bad press" on YouTube. Not sure, whether it's my "channel-bias" or if there is anything to it.

The fender bender repair saga from TFL on their Tesla Model 3 was epic in frustration...
Not as much as their serie on the new Defender. With comments blaming them for not using the lemon law to get rid of it... perfectly understanding the purpose of an automotive channel... /not

[Grumpy Gramps]

Yep, the Defenders have turned into girly cars. Guess, you can't go offroad in those.

[Coligny]

Yep, the Defenders have turned into girly cars. Guess, you can't go offroad in those.

Well, if you followed the TFL channel... you can't go onroad either...

HAVE YOU SEEN THE PRICE of the original stuff on the used car market in japan ? Makes Audi Q series look like student hand me down...
Plus honestly it's a bit too big for the trails I usually go to. The Delica pinstripes on the paint is more and more joined by body panels... shrinkage... As god is my witness I was sure those rocks were farther appart... or that excessive enthusiasm for bumper pushing broken trees... at first I usually try to cut as much as possible... but one rainy night after the 3rd downed tree blocking the road I was totally out of fuck to give and just wanted to go back home... impressive the amount of broken wood that can get stuck under the chassis (according to the mechanic... I don't usually spend much time checking there unless it's scrapping or burning)

[Grumpy Gramps]

HAVE YOU SEEN THE PRICE of the original stuff on the used car market in japan ?

Elsewhere too. Used Landrover prices seem to go through the roof. Maybe it is the new "Chelsea tractor" style Landy onroaders that make real fans run for the last good old ones, where "good" is already relative.

[matsuki]

Hyperloop: the vaccum tube transport project

Familiar but what is the "hoax" you're talmbout? The concept was published as open source years ago, it's not something they are commercially pursuing, unlike the Boring Company Tunnels which are under construction (Las Vegas) and under contract. (San Bernardino) One of the San Bernardino officials even let it slip Tesla would be releasing their version of an electric meatball in XXL size. The only thing I want more than a CyberTruck is a CyberVan!

Tesla software: remote disabling superfast charging capabilities on rebuild cars (youtuber issues, one of them just ditched working on tesla altogethher)

Are you talking about Rich Rebuilds? (love that guy) If so, like I said above, I really hope they return to a certification for rebuild salvaged vehicles and such.

[Coligny]

The hoax is making people believe the vaccum tubes can work as people transit solution.
Check thunderfoot's channel, it's a slaughterhouse,..

[Grumpy Gramps]

There were discussions in Switzerland about this kind of thing, building some of these vacuum tubes right across the country; north to south and east to west. I think, the chief reason for not trying this was rather the eye watering cost of boring the underground tunnels and land expropriations, than the technical feasability (except for some safety concerns). No smoking in those trains might have been an issue in those days, too

Can anyone ELI5, why this would be a hoax? To me, this sounds completely legit yet a bit pricey?

[Coligny]

Maybe not as straightforward as you want

[Grumpy Gramps]

Haha, sorry, couldn't make it through the first five minutes of this video. But surely some people seem to like this type of acting or else the channel wouldn't have a million subscribers. Not your fault.

[matsuki]

Haha, sorry, couldn't make it through the first five minutes of this video. But surely some people seem to like this type of acting or else the channel wouldn't have a million subscribers. Not your fault.

I'm with Grumpy, that smug asshole is unbearable.

I only made it through to the part about thermal expansion. No argument there, it's a reality and why expansion joints are a thing. The two bumpkins referenced telescoping tubing to account for this but off the top of my head, if some challenged me to account for thermal expansion, I'd tell you you're assuming the tubes would be metal....there are alternative materials that won't have this problem. But ok, let's assume the tubes are metal, what's a good way to deal with thermal expansion? You greatly reduce the issue by gaining less volatile temperature range if you bury the pipes...as well as less intrusive to the outside environment.

Anywhooo, supposedly Musk published all that stuff for someone else to try because he didn't want to invest the time/money into developing it though he thinks it's worthwhile. I wouldn't place sole judgement on Musk for something he proposed and is encouraging but isn't developing himself. Meanwhile, in the what is likely feasible now offerings he is doing...

[Grumpy Gramps]

Aha, expansion. That's even an issue in the plumbing of every house, not only long pipelines and such; pipelines, which transport hot liquids through cold weather and such. It goes all the way. Should have been solved a hundred years ago or so? Weren't the Romans already building pipelines? Expansion joints and loops come to mind. Shouldn't be too big of a deal. But then, I am no tunnel engineer.

[Coligny]

Ya gunna lOOse yer shit when you discover PEX piping...

[Grumpy Gramps]

If they put a hyperloop train into a pex pipe, yes, definitely!

[Russell]

OK, my 22-year old 230,000 km Honda STEPWGN needed more repairs. Front breaks this time. Since the engine started to sound a bit NASCAR-like at certain rpms, I gave it a day and bought a STEPWGN from 2016 with around 60,000 km on the counter.

No hybrid, because they are complex, making repairs potentially expensive. And they are not that much more efficient at highway speeds, for which I will use the car mostly.

No electric, because no vans available. And battery tech is not yet good enough. As an aside Tesla's automotive batteries are said to hold up much better than Nissan's, because they have this essential feature of a fan cooling them when parked in the hot sun.

So, with my second-handy I can bridge the gap until electric cars are more mainstream.

[Wage Slave]

That STEPWGN really did it's job! And I thought I was extreme with my 17 year old Fit, which had only done just over half as many as many kilometres. I'm sure you notice a huge improvement. Does it come with any of the sensing package? I am a firm fan of adaptive cruise control now - It makes it so much easier to do longer journeys.

[Russell]

That STEPWGN really did it's job! And I thought I was extreme with my 17 year old Fit, which had only done just over half as many as many kilometres. I'm sure you notice a huge improvement. Does it come with any of the sensing package? I am a firm fan of adaptive cruise control now - It makes it so much easier to do longer journeys.

Yes, it has the sensing package.

One difference is the engine. The old one was a 2.0 liter, but the current one is 1.5 liter. This sounds like the opposite of an improvement, but it is a Turbo, so its power actually equals that of a conventional 2.4 liter engine. Mileage is better, though, and taxes also are lower with this 1.5 l turbo. On the other hand, pressures in the engine are higher with Turbos, so it may not last as long. I like the sound of this Turbo when I stand outside: it is like a sewing machine. Honda is known for the quality of its engines.

The automatic transmission is also different: CVT in the new one. It drives very nicely. Nissan has had lots of problems with its CVTs, but not so Honda and Toyota. So, I'm kind of confident this one holds up well. At least I hope, because replacing it would be expensive.

And the other difference is all that electronics in modern cars. Quite impressive, though this is still less than the 2020 model. The downside of course is that electronics tends to break down after 10 to 15 years, but let's hope it holds up. And I am still trying to figure out how to switch off the radio. LOL

And of course, the interior changed quite a bit. One thing I like is that the seats on the 3rd row can be folded into the floor. The downside is that there is no spare tire, and that those seats are not so comfortable for a tall guy like me. Seats in the second row have become much more comfortable, and getting in and out has also become easier with sliding doors at both sides. And then there is this interesting contraption in the back door, which can be opened in two ways, one way by pulling it up (like in the older models), and the other way by opening half the door sideways.

I look forward to commute with it in January. Due to Covid-19 I abandoned trains, and my commuting time has halved. And that does not even take into account the days that I work at home. In some weird sense this epidemic has been a blessing in disguise for me...

[Grumpy Gramps]

And I am still trying to figure out how to switch off the radio. LOL

Dou you own a chainsaw by any chance?

[Wage Slave]

The CVT takes a bit of getting used to for most people - there's that slight rubber banding feel to it at first. Once you have got used to it and predict it, most people really like it. That includes me, especially on long trips and hill climbs. It super convenient and smooth - appropriate power whenever you want it. The only thing you can't do is spin the wheels drag racing from the lights with the guy in the Toyota - the power feeds in smoothly. I'm sure you won't miss that too much.