For or against cloning ?

[GomiGirl]

Good grief, I go off-line for a few days and miss all the fun of a great discussion.

I will not try to answer points - even though I am sorely tempted... however, summary as I see it is:

CS is saying that we have no need to dabble in something that could be a huge problem if the technology falls into the hands of crazy materialists who are hell bent on creating drones to be exploited. Also the risks associated with the technology lead to many disturbing "mistakes".
Maciamo is desperate to change everybody's thinking to be just the same as he is because the rest of us are completely misguided and watch too much Science Fiction.
GomiGirl thinks that Maciamo is naive to only look at benefits without checks and balances on the use of the technology.
Torigaa has a question about genetic diseases (see below)
Taro wants a larger penis

Did I miss anything?

To answer Torigaa's question...

If a clone is made of a person with a genetic disorder, then the clone will have the same disorder. Genetic illnesses are usually recessive and only show up in a few small percentage of the population. A person may be a "carrier" but the disease may not manifest itself at all or even in their children. It is a huge lottery. But it is very easy to test for genetic illnesses.

Also, I am a huge fan of gene therapy. This is where a "virus" is given to a person with a genetic disorder (note virii are different to bacteria in that they infect within the DNA - actually breaking open the chain and inserting itself into it and "living" there until it dies - this is why you cannot cure the common cold virus and shouldn't take anti-biotics for a virus)

This manufactured virus goes into your DNA and removes or replaces "bad" DNA with good DNA thus removing a genetic disorder.

This will be very important in the future for diseases such as spinobifeda (spelling?), sickle cell aenameia, etc etc.. maybe even HIV some day.....

Before people start jumping up and down, this will not make you taller, smarter, change the colour of your hair etc. But will be used for clearly identifiable "errors" in genetic code which cause these genetci disorders.

As I said I am a huge fan of this, however, again I stress that strict checks and balances be used in this technology also to prevent abuse.

[Maciamo]

GomiGirl thinks that Maciamo is naive to only look at benefits without checks and balances on the use of the technology.

In this kind of thread, I am a bit playing the devil's advocate. If somebody had started saying "cloning is wonderful, we should start cloning everybody" or something, I would have taken the opposite side, just for the fun of the debate (French people are notoriously polemical - I am not French, but I have had my education mostly in French).

What I wanted to make clear since the beginning is that cloning is different from genetic enigeering. Cloning is only reproducing the exact same DNA as the donor.

I think this is what most people who are against cloning don't want to understand. They have sci-fi images of Star Wars and Dark Angel, but even in the latter, there is no mention of clones ("they were genetically design to be soldiers...", which I have explained is dubbious since mental and physical education prime over genes, as shown with identical twins).

On this forum, cstaylor was the one arguing that we could clone "an army of docile and cheap labor". He is confusing cloning with genetic engineering, which I am sure is more dangerous.

Cstaylor brought up the fact that mistakes are common and clones are born disformed or with diseases. Such creatures (animal or human or else) are not clones. They are mistakes. Real clones have 100% same DNA. I reject this problem has the necessary apprenticeship which prevails in any scientific experiment. In a near future, when we will have mastered cloning, there won't be any (significative amount of) mistakes anymore. That's why it's important that we should continue research so that scientists around th world avoid making mistakes more quickly.
Furthermore, "errors" can be spotted quickly in the foetus since the original cell contains all the DNA that will construct the body. It suffices to test the DNA in a single foetus cell to know if it's the same as the original or not. That will avoid misformed creatures to be born.

If there is something I want everybody to think alike, it's that cloning itself is no more dangerous than having children. I am not being naive on this, just realistic, sticking to the definition of cloning. We can only clone someone that already exist. If we modify the DNA, then it's not a clone, but a genetically engineered person/animal/plant/...

Genetical Engineering is another debate. Shall I open a new thread for it ?

It can be very interesting. Imagine designing dinosaurs or mythical creatures such as dragons (without fire and maybe not flying because of the elementary laws of physics and biochemistry ). What about elfs and goblins ? As long as there is no magic or supernatural power involved, this is not sci-fi, but our knowledge is not sufficient yet to think about doing such fantasies (without pun).

[Maciamo]

I also wanted to add that Raelians are exasperatingly senseless (not a big news, but I'll explain why).

1) If they claim that humans have been cloned by aliens, then it only means that aliens are humans. Or are they also confusing cloning and genetical engineering ?

2) As baby humans can't live without parents anyway, there should have been aliens (euh, sorry parents) to raise them. They would speak a single language containing vocabulary of the advancement level the aliens had reached.

3) Why didn't the "human aliens" from whom we were cloned colonise Earth themselves rather than cloning themselves ? Why didn't they make babies instead of clones ? Why leave them in the most primitive condition when they could have sent educated people with computers or books ?

4) How can they explain the racial diversity (Caucasians, Asians, Africans, Aborigenal Australians....), originally by region, without evolution.

5) Even if they reject the Darwnian theory that all humans evolved from the ape, fish, etc., they must comply with the certainty that human beings once lived in caves and even nowadays live primitively in remote jungles (Amazon...). How could we explain such a primitive condition if we descend from advanced humans that knew of cloning ?

Of course, they can't answer any of these questions. I am really sorry for the primitive people who follow this sect. Are they idiots with an IQ under 70 ? Just the few top people are making this scam to amass money and try to find a place in the history books by cloning the first (publicly recognised) human clone.

[Buraku]

Antiques Roadshow guest stunned over huge value of Dolly the cloned sheep’s fleece

https://metro.co.uk/2023/11/27/antiques ... -19884360/

Cloning cult conned us out of £300,000
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... 0-000.html
A couple who gave the controversial Raelian cult £300,000 to clone their dead son have told of their distress at being ' cynically' duped.

Elohim a Hebrew word meaning "gods" or "godhood"