whose interests?

[jez]

We hear statements on the news like "the Russians [said] they were given no assurances...", or "the Russians and the Americans feel they have a lot to gain by working well together", or even "Russia wants to work closely with the United States"(Newsnight-BBC). Which Russians and which Americans are those? Does anyone believe they represent the people of those countries? The same goes for the French which suddenly "wants to look forward"(Newsnight).
What is the will of the people? Furthermore, why do so-called leaders pretend to want to convince the people, when the people are not actually listened to, whether it be in the USA, the UK, France, Germany or Russia?
I was never under any illusions as to what the intentions of the French or German governments were. This just further proves to me, that the interests of the people are not what counts.

[ramchop]

You also forgot Norway. If they're on al-Qaeda's hit list they must be bad.

The Norwegian authorities are struggling to come up with a clear reason why Norway should have been included in a threat attributed to the al-Qaeda network broadcast on Al-Jazeera television on Wednesday.

The hope of the authorities, as expressed by one diplomat, was that al-Qaeda simply got their geography wrong and did not mean to threaten Norway at all.

[kurohinge1]

Maybe the crazies just said " ... no way .." (with an accent) and not "Norway" ???

Or maybe they're getting bored with the whole thing and selecting random countries from an atlas - Luxembourg could be the next country "named"!

[jez]

does annyone fancy answering my question?

[ramchop]

Gai doesn't live here anymore.

[jez]

so what? I don't fancy talking to people who don't want to listen anyway.

[GomiGirl]

does annyone fancy answering my question?

There is no real answer to your question.. wake up and smell the coffee my friend. read George Orwell and you will realise that this is not a new problem. If you think about it you will get even more frustrated but your options are simple:

1. ignore it and get on with your life (the ostrich solution)
2. Accept it and do the best you can (the middle class solution)
3. Write to your elected leader (the wishful thinking approach)
4. Write to your local paper (the thinking but futile approach)
5. Join a lobby group (the active approach)
6. Join a political party (the "can't beat 'em join 'em" approach)
7. Run for office (the opportunists approach)
8. Get elected (the "Animal Farm" approach - "Everybody is equal but some are more equal than others")
9. Talk to all your friends about everything, listen to everybody, discuss on forums, and get on with your life the best you can with a smile on your face. (the GomiGirl approach)

Remember that Absolute Power corrupts absolutely..

[jez]

Gomi-chan,
Isn't number 9 exactly what I'm doing?
Sadly, there are people who are not aware of what you are aware of. Others still refuse to see it. Personally, I like to think I've been aware of it, but I am becoming ever more aware of the immensity(is that a word?) of the problem. Is it because I am getting older, or is the problem suddenly getting worse?

[GuyJean]

Does anyone believe they represent the people of those countries?

Basically, I agree with you; leaders USUALLY want to lead because they have their own interests, which are basically money and power.

In a utopian world, leaders would be something like teachers; getting paid little, but being fullfilled by educating, and leading others.. But the earth is not heaven, and when you lead, you posses power.. And power equals money.. and chicks and beer! It's just the way it is.

Now as far as the interests of the people? I sort of disagree. Most 'people' don't know what's best for them. They don't have the resources or the knowledge to balance a nations budget, defend a country, understand the tax system, etc.. I certainly don't want Joe Idiot next door with Damn Yankees screaming on the stereo deciding what's best for me! He don't know shit. That's why we have leaders; to make the tough decisions we're basically incapable of making on our own..

GJ

[jez]

In a utopian world, leaders would be something like teachers]
No, in a utopian world, leaders wouldn't be paid anymore than the rest of us. In a utopian world we'd all be leaders. No-one would be led. And I don't agree that it's just the way it is(baby).Actually it's supposed to be money equals power. Now, I have money, yet am not interested in power. Am I from outer space?

Most 'people' don't know what's best for them.

So some of us know what's good for us? Why should you and I be more intelligent than others? And if some of us are born with more ability to think than others, why should we use that ability to exercise power over others?
And please don't say "that's just the way it is". You can do better than that.

[GuyJean]

No, in a utopian world, leaders wouldn't be paid anymore than the rest of us. In a utopian world we'd all be leaders.

Maybe in MY utopian world, I don't want to lead? Is your vision of a perfect world the same as mine? Doubt it..

So, basically we have different versions of what's 'perfect'. So, basically we are not the same. So, basically we're not equal. So, basically that's what reality is.. Different backgrounds, resources, experiences, locations, etc. create differences in people.. That's reality.

Why should you and I be more intelligent than others?

Um. SOME people ARE more intelligent than others.. (See 'different backgrounds' above.)

And if some of us are born with more ability to think than others, why should we use that ability to exercise power over others?

Well, as I originally said]And please don't say "that's just the way it is". You can do better than that.[/quote]
I'm not sure I can... My version of reality is obviously much different than yours.

GJ

[jez]

No, in a utopian world, leaders wouldn't be paid anymore than the rest of us. In a utopian world we'd all be leaders.

Maybe in MY utopian world, I don't want to lead? Is your vision of a perfect world the same as mine? Doubt it.. .

You missed my point. "we'd all be leaders" means no one would be led. We'd all make decisions together. We've got to use our immagination to see further than what we've been taught. I'm not talking about applying utopian ideals to the world we now live in. I'm talking about an entirely new world. Something we've never actually tried before. If we've never tried it, how do we know it doesn't work?

While some people are born with certain abilities which others don't have, we all have something to offer. Otherwise, we might as well resort to eugenics. Leadership should not be an sbsolute concept. We should all participate in leadership. Not in the sense we have now, which is that we vote for people, and basically hand over power to them. No, participation should be absolute.

Again, it is necessary to use our immagination, rather than simply applying our 'good old' values to a utopian ideal which has never been attempted.
[/quote]

[GuyJean]

We'd all make decisions together.. I'm talking about an entirely new world. Something we've never actually tried before. If we've never tried it, how do we know it doesn't work?

I think it's called Communism.. And it didn't work.

I agree that it would be nice to have everyone working together, existing as equals, using one person's talents to off-set other's weaknesses, for the benefit of all.. But I don't think it'll work.. Even in the hippie communes, that practice 'communism', there is always a 'leader'.

I think your ideas could possibly work in small groups, or tribes with an abundance of resources, and plenty of distance between those groups (think Canada).. But if it gets crowded, this 'new', 'everyone equal' system is shot to hell.. People will start having to 'compete' for food, space, etc.. And in a competative system, there is always a leader and a follower.

IMO..

GJ

[jez]

I think it's called Communism.. And it didn't work.

You haven't been using your immagination. Communism took place within a state. Within a state there are leaders. Therefore what I am talking about can not be communism. I've told you I'm talking about something which hasn't been tried before. I'm sorry if your immagination is limited, but thank goodness you do not represent humanity.

I think your ideas could possibly work in small groups, or tribes with an abundance of resources, and plenty of distance between those groups (think Canada).. But if it gets crowded, this 'new', 'everyone equal' system is shot to hell.. People will start having to 'compete' for food, space, etc.. And in a competative system, there is always a leader and a follower.

Maybe you are getting somewhere here...

IMO..

Who?Me?

[jez]

I think your ideas could possibly work in small groups

This is something which would need to be reflected upon. It may be hard to return to such a state of affairs, but as I have said, it is all about using one's power of immagination, and immagining a society which would be better than the one we have now. I don't believe that is such a hard thing to do.
What is chaos? It's a matter of personal opinion how we define 'chaos'. I believe we are getting closer and closer to chaos. In some parts of the world chaos is pretty much a reality, and we cannot disassociate ourselves from this chaos. Even less as the world becomes more global. Not only are we all responsible, but we are all guilty, if only because of our passivity.

[GuyJean]

I'm sorry if your immagination is limited, but thank goodness you do not represent humanity.

Whatever, man... There's really no point to this conversation. You don't think anyone has thought of your 'original' ideas, or tried them?

So, what IS your idea? Please teach your magic, because you haven't done much to explain this 'magical, fluffy, Disney world', besides 'no one is led, and no one follows'. Can you show us your idea?... OH MY GOD!! YOU are a leader! ..

Let me know how your experiment goes, cuz I aint followin'.

IMO..

Who?Me?

I thougth IMO meant 'In My Opinion'.. Who, me what?

GJ

[jez]

Disney is actually quite contrary to my ideals. I don't believe in moralistic happy family stories :lol:
In your last post you chose to comment only on one line of my previous post. I think I said more than that.
If you think the world we live in good enough, I suggest you open your eyes. You don't even need to travel.
And if you think putting forth ideas means being a leader, then I really pity you :cry:

[GuyJean]

Disney is actually quite contrary to my ideals.

Disney as 'eternal happy ending', not Disney 'corporation'.

I don't believe in moralistic happy family stories

I think you and Jack are the same person.

In your last post you chose to comment only on one line of my previous post. I think I said more than that.

Some of us have work to do here in the real world, not THC dreamland.

If you think the world we live in good enough, I suggest you open your eyes.

No, I suggest YOU open your eyes to reality. The world has problems, and it ALWAYS will]And if you think putting forth ideas means being a leader, then I really pity you [/quote]
Don't pity me, jez. Accept that my ideas are different; Acceptance is healthier for us all.

I'm done with this thread.

GJ

[jez]

Disney is actually quite contrary to my ideals.

Disney as 'eternal happy ending', not Disney 'corporation'.

I don't believe in moralistic happy family stories

I think you and Jack are the same person.

You split up my sentences and twist my post into something new. No wonder you don't get what I'm saying. Don't know who Jack is. I am Jez.

In your last post you chose to comment only on one line of my previous post. I think I said more than that.

Some of us have work to do here in the real world, not THC dreamland.

If you ain't got time, don't bother responding to serious posts. Better to stay quiet than to respond in a half-arsed way.

If you think the world we live in good enough, I suggest you open your eyes.

No, I suggest YOU open your eyes to reality. The world has problems, and it ALWAYS will]
It's alright for people like us, who live in a relatively comfortable environment to claim that what we've got will do. Try living in places which have been fucked up by our system, places which are now being further fucked up in the name of 'anti-terrorism', 'freedom' etc.
Again, you choose to bring my ideals back to existing examples, such as hippyism, communism etc. Again, I call on you to use your immagination. That is the frist step. As I have said, I am not a leader, so I do not make rules and shout orders. All I say is : think!

I'm done with this thread.

Again, if you're just gonna pick and choose, disect my posts, and answer half-heartedly, then it's better this way. Still, I'd much rather have a rational discussion with you.