Fucked by Japanese landlords-your story wanted

[Cyka UchuuJin]

I'm now about to embark into the world of Japanese landlord dispute. Won't go into all the details here, but basically after giving a 400.000 key money, plus 250.000 damage deposit, the owner has given me a bill for 225.000 in 'foreigner caused damages'. He further went on to say that he was unhappy with the number of foreigners that came to stay with me and 'ruined his apartment'. Basically, the building is nearly 40 years old, and wasn't in the best state to begin with. He knows he can't get the same amount of rent that he got from me for the last 4 years, so is selling it. He's claiming these outrageous damages because he's renovating the whole place at my expense to try to make it more attractive for sale.

Here's the thing. If he had a problem with a foreigner living there, he could very easily cancelled my lease at the end of the initital 2 years when he came to inspect it at even said 'you've done very good job of keeping it in good repair'.

We're considering legal action, which I'm sure won't do much but give the guy a headache. What we are also doing, which will be even worse for him, is writing an article, with his full name, to be published in the Japan Times, the Mainichi (who we became very good friends with during our work with the Kenyan embassy), and a friend of mine in Japan who writes for the New York Times, who has been putting together a piece on the 'Yokoso...not quite as yokoso as one would think' of Japan.

Has anyone else had any horror stories with Japan landlords as a result of them being foreign and the owner thinking they can get away with it? If you'd be willing to share your story, please PM me.

I took a lot of shit during my time in Japan, but this one went a little too far and it's naming and shaming time, since that seems to be the only thing they respond to.

[Mulboyne]

You have the Supreme Court on your side.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

You have the Supreme Court on your side.

thanks, mulboyne!! is fantastic news, although the link is dead.

does anyone know where to find that article, or that supreme court ruling in japanese so that i can forward it to the owner and tell him i'm pursuing it?

[Mulboyne]

The case actually involved a tenant in Osaka and the Supreme Court decision was handed down by Rjoji Nakagawa. If you went to a lawyer with the date, court and judge, he'd be able to track down the ruling easily enough if he wasn't already familiar with it. It's also reproduced on a blog in two parts here (Japanese):

http://www.shikikin-kanteishi.net/12/12.html
http://www.shikikin-kanteishi.net/13/13.html

You want to make sure it actually says what you want it to say before you show your landlord. Here's the same thing in PDF and the case reference from the MoJ site.

It should be reasonably well-known, It's mentioned on the Japanese Wikipedia page for shikikin.

[GomiGirl]

Have a very very long story to tell that involves the small claims court and then demanding money from the real estate agent as well. We won in the end but it wasn't pleasant.

The first port of call should be the city government in Osaka. I am not sure where that but for example in Tokyo it is the Tocho office - they have a window set-up just for claims against landlords who try to keep deposit.

Say goodbye to your key money but you might be able to avoid paying extra. Did you have photos of the state of the apartment when you moved in? A floorplan showing existing damage?

I will write down my horror story - well it isn't mine but I was involved.

[prolly]

you had me at "Yokoso...not quite as yokoso as one would think" but i have no horror stories of my own.

good luck!

[Greji]

basically after giving a 400.000 key money, plus 250.000 damage deposit, the owner has given me a bill for 225.000 in 'foreigner caused damages'. He further went on to say that he was unhappy with the number of foreigners that came to stay with me and 'ruined his apartment'.

If that foreigner was Iraira, I'd a hit you for 300,000 in damages.

Notice how close to your damage deposit in amount he is claiming? That's standard. Head over to the Osaka city office as has been advised. They may be enough to get it rolling. If not a lawyer is the way and you can shove this clown right off the pier.

Problem is that we may not be talking about an overnight fix. You might have to invest some time. The fact he renewed your lease is big. A lot of times, these guys that are trying to stick it to fgs, figure fgs just don't have the time to argue or litigate, so they'll just pay up/forgo the deposits and let it go at that. Don't do that if you got the time. Stick it to him with no KY. Make him squeal like a stuck hog.....

[Cyka UchuuJin]

thanks everyone for the replies. i've sent off those links to my former business partner and told her to get them to not just the landlord, but the lawyer as well. yes, i have also noticed how close it is to the actual deposit. he's included things in there like 'house cleaning', and 'waste disposal' and other little amount that are totally unreasonable. if he wasn't given 400.000 in key money, i might be a little less angry about it, but when you're given that much (which of course i later found out was a lot more than average), then he doesn't need to be so stingy.

what it comes down to is this...
it's an old building, and there's 5 brand new ones within 2 blocks that have just been built. he's asking 16.8 selling price. everyone in there says he's insane, that he'll be lucky to get 9. the economy is shit. and rather than put the 250.000 into a bank account to return it at the end of the lease, he's probably spent it and simply doesn't have it to return.

regardless, he's gonna get hit by our lawyers. it's a matter of principle now and japan fucked me enough, it's time for me to start getting some of my own back.

[Midwinter]

he's included things in there like 'house cleaning', and 'waste disposal' and other little amount that are totally unreasonable.

When I moved into the place I'm in now, they tried to hit us with a 40,000 yen bill for "house cleaning" before we had even stepped one foot inside the apartment. Needless to say, there was much wrangling and scratching involved before the bastard agents dropped it.

Good luck with your battle Cyka, if you need a heavy to stand behind you in court and look intimidating I'm sure I can free up sometime for you.

[Iraira]

If that foreigner was Iraira, I'd a hit you for 300,000 in damages.

I spent a lot of time tearing up her tatami......

[Behan]

An older American lady I used to work with had nearly the same thing happen. When she was going to move out the landlord tried to get money beyond the deposit out of her.
The guy even called up our school and somehow I wound up on the phone with him. Not really knowing what was going on I just told him not to bother his tenant at her place of work. I think he had also told the school's staff about the problem even though it wasn't any of their business.
I would have thought that a certain amount of wear and tear on an apartment was normal and that you shouldn't have too much of your original deposit deducted, although landlords apparently tend to keep most or all of it.
Maybe you could just give up on your deposit and let your ex-landlord try to get the other money out of you by going to court. I would suspect he might just give up, especially if you hint about going to various media with it.
Good luck with it, though!:p

[Catoneinutica]

if he wasn't given 400.000 in key money, i might be a little less angry about it, but when you're given that much (which of course i later found out was a lot more than average), then he doesn't need to be so stingy.

The whole key money scam is even more extortionate in Kansai than in Kanto - or so I've heard from a few people, including Mrs. Catone. She rented an apartment in Osaka in the early 90s and in order to get in the door had to fork over 1,000,000 yen in various deposits. Naturally, the landlord later declared bankruptcy and she lost 800,000 of it. So it could be worse. I'd still sue, though.

-catone
-I take the additional amount your landlord wants as a bargaining position; he's probably prepared to let it go in exchange for the money you've already paid - and it's the prepaid money he's stealing from you that's the real story.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The whole key money scam is even more extortionate in Kansai than in Kanto.

I've heard the opposite too though, so who knows WTF is actually true. Anyway, I think this whole problem stems from the Japanese shoganai attitude. People here are way to quick to just bend over, grab their ankles, grit their teeth, and take it if someone tells them to.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

I've heard the opposite too though, so who knows WTF is actually true. Anyway, I think this whole problem stems from the Japanese shoganai attitude. People here are way to quick to just bend over, grab their ankles, grit their teeth, and take it if someone tells them to.

yep, they are. and i did enough of the bending over when the kix detention happened. so i'm not feeling very bendy anymore. i transferred just over 1 million yen to get into this apartment. 120.000 for the agency fee, 120.000 for the first month, 400.000 in key money, 250.000 in deposit, 20.000 for fire insurance, another 15.000 in 'disinfection' fees.

i've been very 'soft' over the last 4 years, choosing to be nice and grit my teeth with some of the more irritating 'scams' in japan in the name of the whole 'playing by their rules' thing. this time though, i'm prepared to dig my heels in and fight back. this guy got his mortgage paid off via the extortionate amount of rent he got off me, not to mention always got his rent on time (early in most cases), and all of my neighbours told him that i was one of the nicest and quietest people that lived in the building and they were sorry to see me go.

i'm going to fight the bastard to the end.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Syokyaku

how would you define that?

[Iraira]

Syokyaku

how would you define that?

depreciation

[Yokohammer]

i'm going to fight the bastard to the end.

I'm right behind you on this one Cyka (so don't bend over).

Been there a couple of times myself and have won on both counts. Japanese law really does favor the tenant. Talking to lawyers might seem scary, but it might be a good idea. You should be able to get a consultation with a decent lawyer for as little as 5,000 ~ 10,000. He (or she) will be able to tell you exactly where you stand re the law. You might be pleasantly surprised. It will give you the confidence you need.

Of course it will cost you more if you actually want the lawyer to take action (although probably not as much as you think ... it'll probably cost your landlord a lot more), but just knowing where you stand can make all the difference in the world!

Go for it. Don't back down.

It's important for all of us.

[nottu]

[amdg]

I haven't really had many problems in Kansai, and I've moved 5 times. There was only one time when the landlord wanted to keep all my deposit money, and luckily on the final inspection day the wife (at that time fiance) came with me. I had done absolutely no damage whatsoever, yet they still wanted to keep it all, and the wife went into ballistic mode and gave him a real dressing down. He recanted on the spot, and we got the full amount back. I guess it just depends on how much of a bastard they want to be vs. how much trouble you can cause them. Good luck with it!

[Samurai_Jerk]

I'm right behind you on this one Cyka (so don't bend over).

Been there a couple of times myself and have won on both counts. Japanese law really does favor the tenant. Talking to lawyers might seem scary, but it might be a good idea. You should be able to get a consultation with a decent lawyer for as little as 5,000 ~ 10,000. He (or she) will be able to tell you exactly where you stand re the law. You might be pleasantly surprised. It will give you the confidence you need.

Of course it will cost you more if you actually want the lawyer to take action (although probably not as much as you think ... it'll probably cost your landlord a lot more), but just knowing where you stand can make all the difference in the world!

Go for it. Don't back down.

It's important for all of us.

In Tokyo there's some kind of real estate association that will give you free consultation in real estate law and tenant rights. If you call your city office, they'll tell where there's one in Osaka.

[Yokohammer]

In Tokyo there's some kind of real estate association that will give you free consultation in real estate law and tenant rights. If you call your city office, they'll tell where there's one in Osaka.

That's another good approach.

It's actually pretty easy to give evil landlords a hard time, and a lawyer might be more prepared to provide that kind of information than a government office, but there's certainly no harm in giving it a shot (and the price is right!).

Give 'em hell!

[Samurai_Jerk]

[klimmer]

[CrankyBastard]

I had a similar experience as you have, but it was a long time ago.
It was resolved amicably, when I met with the owner of the place I had been renting, I convinced him that I could not afford to pay what he was asking even if he took me to court.
He said he understood, and that was that. He let it go.
I hope you get it sorted.

[Samurai_Jerk]

There's no need to engage lawyers for such disputes. All you need to do is to gather your supporting documents, and print out the Metropolitan Government's guideline to tenant/landlord dispute here:


http://www.toshiseibi.metro.tokyo.jp/juutaku_seisaku/tintai/310-4-jyuutaku.htm

http://www.toshiseibi.metro.tokyo.jp/juutaku_seisaku/tintai/310-3-jyuutaku.htm

Pay the saiban fees of JPY12,000 and the judge will take care of the rest. The landlord almost always backs down.

Consultation with the Tokyo Fudosan Kaikan is free. You have to be able to speak Japanese or have someone with you who does though. I used them when I was having a dispute with a landlord. All I had to do was tell the landlord that I spoke with them and they told me that what being asked of me wasn't legally required or an obligation under the terms of my lease. The landlord immediately backed down and did things my way.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

sorry for the delayed response, but thank you all for this. the problem continues like this...

the apartment was in the name of my former business partner. when we moved in, the owner came over and asked who was actually going to live there. we explained that it would be both of us, depending on who was in town at the time. he said he was ok with that, but was nervous about foreigners being there because of noise,etc. there were never any complaints and the doorman even told him that the 'building committee' (made up of old gossipy women who are 150 years old) was very pleased to have such a nice neighbour.

the initial 2 year contract expired in feb of 2007 and we asked if he wanted us to sign another one and he said it was fine to just continue paying the rent. so now, of course, he's reverted to the 'the foreigner damaged my apartment badly and i don't want to give deposit back, etc etc'. noriko (yeah yeah, that is actually her name) called the agency that found the place for us and they are the ones who said this syokakyu is a tricky word to use and that there's no subleasing, although the payments for rent always came from her account, there was no actual subleasing going on at all, because she used the place as well as our office and her address in osaka.

now the owner is just hanging up the phone when she calls or not even answering. the leasing agency says there's nothing they can do. i've just sent noriko the links that were posted above, but she's now even starting to give me the 'i don't know what else to do, lawyers are expensive and will cost more than the deposit, maybe nothing more can be done'. which is making me think i'm going to have to start leaning on her too.

i'm not even asking for my full deposit back, i'm just asking for the guy to be fair and get several estimates and stick to what he said during the inspection!

[Samurai_Jerk]

sorry for the delayed response, but thank you all for this. the problem continues like this...

the apartment was in the name of my former business partner. when we moved in, the owner came over and asked who was actually going to live there. we explained that it would be both of us, depending on who was in town at the time. he said he was ok with that, but was nervous about foreigners being there because of noise,etc. there were never any complaints and the doorman even told him that the 'building committee' (made up of old gossipy women who are 150 years old) was very pleased to have such a nice neighbour.

the initial 2 year contract expired in feb of 2007 and we asked if he wanted us to sign another one and he said it was fine to just continue paying the rent. so now, of course, he's reverted to the 'the foreigner damaged my apartment badly and i don't want to give deposit back, etc etc'. noriko (yeah yeah, that is actually her name) called the agency that found the place for us and they are the ones who said this syokakyu is a tricky word to use and that there's no subleasing, although the payments for rent always came from her account, there was no actual subleasing going on at all, because she used the place as well as our office and her address in osaka.

now the owner is just hanging up the phone when she calls or not even answering. the leasing agency says there's nothing they can do. i've just sent noriko the links that were posted above, but she's now even starting to give me the 'i don't know what else to do, lawyers are expensive and will cost more than the deposit, maybe nothing more can be done'. which is making me think i'm going to have to start leaning on her too.

i'm not even asking for my full deposit back, i'm just asking for the guy to be fair and get several estimates and stick to what he said during the inspection!

Maybe you must cyall cousin from Russia to break vindow or knee cyap.

[Mike Oxlong]

[kusai Jijii]

In the near two decades I've been here, I've had not a single problem with J-lords. But in all honesty, I have seen one gaijin after the other think he was soooo clever by 'doing a runner' when the last rent was due, not giving a fuck about 'gomi bunbetsu', etc. etc. I'm not saying that FGs are immune to discrimination etc, but there's no shortage of FG wankers who all too readily give the J-lords cause to fuck with us.

Right Take?
Remember that.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

In the near two decades I've been here, I've had not a single problem with J-lords. But in all honesty, I have seen one gaijin after the other think he was soooo clever by 'doing a runner' when the last rent was due, not giving a fuck about 'gomi bunbetsu', etc. etc. I'm not saying that FGs are immune to discrimination etc, but there's no shortage of FG wankers who all too readily give the J-lords cause to fuck with us.

Right Take?
Remember that.

well, i'm not one of those wankers. i paid the last month's rent, paid the 6000\ to have the proper agency come to take the broken refrigerator to the environmentally proper place, called the ward office to arrange for and paid for the sodai gomi instead of leaving it on the street, paid all the utilities, takubined the modem and all it's bits and bobs to yahoo bb. i was even very forthcoming in pointing out in the inspection exactly where i'd hung things and even went to the effort to hire a cleaning company and had even the a/c unit professionally cleaned.

and he's never had any other foreigners living in his place, so it's not like he has had previous bad experience. he's the wanker here, not me.