Japan wannabes "waiting to be insiders"

[Taro Toporific]

Challenges in Japan: Outsiders waiting to be insiders
International Herald Tribune, NYT Wednesday, July 23, 2003
HIMEJI, Japan With their tidy suburban home, a late-model Toyota in the driveway and two school-aged children whose Japanese is indistinguishable from any native's, Akio Nakashima and his wife, Yoshie, are the perfect immigrants.... they even adopted Japanese names in order to assimilate better. Outside of the workplace, however, in 21 years in this Japan...

[Big Booger]

I hope Japan crumbles because of their genetic elitism.. I am eager to await the future of Japan's demise all seemingly because they are too proud to allow "foreigners" to enter Japan..

To hell with Japan.

[Crispy]

Yeah, it's rapidly approaching adapt or die time for Japan. That one guy sounded like he preferred death...

[jingai]

You foreigners shall never be allowed to soil Japan's purity. I foresee a future where clones shall augment natural births and keep Japan stable. What's there to be afraid of? Just more brown-eyed black-haired, fair-skinned people running around. Conformity is heavenly.

Here's a preview:
http://www.juergenspecht.com/truestories/matrixreloaded/

[Taro Toporific]

You foreigners shall never be allowed to soil Japan's purity....Just more brown-eyed black-haired, fair-skinned people running around. Conformity is heavenly.

Speaking of color, I like this quote from the IHT/New York Times article...

Already, the construction industry makes wide use of immigrants, mostly from other Asian countries, to fill the most dangerous and low-paying jobs.
"We have already reached the point where the Japanese economy cannot function without foreign workers," said Mioko Honda, a leader of the two-year-old Union of Migrant Workers. "The construction companies use Thais and Filipinos by day, because they are inconspicuous, and Africans and others are used at night, or in factory work."

Note that the "Africans and others are used at night" comment is not as flippant as it sounds. If I vaguely remember correctly, the author of this New York Times story, Howard W. French, is black.
See also...

Shiga bars foreigners who don't speak Japanese from public housing
by Howard W. French / Japan Today / Thursday, July 11, 2002 at 10:00 JST

[Shibuya Me]

Check this out...

I lived in Hawaii for a very long time. I had friends from Tokyo to Osaka. Girlfriends who looked like top models. I come to Japan and guess what?

I am a foreigner.

Go figure!

[Taro Toporific]

Check this out...I lived in Hawaii for a very long time. I had friends from Tokyo to Osaka. Girlfriends who looked like top models. I come to Japan and guess what?
I am a foreigner.
Go figure!

So?
Dye your hair blond and wear blue contacts (a la Dave Spector) and market yourself as the exotic foreign model.

[American Oyaji]

That was a VERY good article.

Thanks TT

[Armandeus]

Education is the key.

In Japan, "kokusaika" is a farce. It is not about intercultural understanding or acceptance, but about having token foreigners and learning English so you can tell foreigners about "we Japanese." The wall remains.

Instead of the right-wing goal of "instilling patriotism" that will soon take effect in primary and secondary school, there should be emphasis on "live and let live" internationalization - without the "us vs. them" aspects like "we must learn English to educate foreigners about Japanese culture," to be replaced with "foreigners are not curiosities; the Japanese are not homogeneous."

Perhaps only in my dreams, or at least not until the LDP and similar parties lose their majorities.

[kotatsuneko]

how about this for some internationalisation?

on the way back from work today, i was sitting on the train, when at odori a salaryman and his co worker or g/f whatever got on..

so the dude says to her, sit down, pretty decent of him i thought considering the usual japanese males attitude.. on seeing the seat was next to a ... shock horror gaijin... the bitch utters.. in a nasal pitch "sono hen wa iyaaa"

after such a good day at work, this really annoyed me so i offered, in the gruffest voice i could, while wanting to be understood ..

"nani iu ten nayo, kono kusai ba ita?!" i was gonna continue practicing some choice expressions but she ran too quickly

the dude, to his credit, bowed, not the usual little nod , but a good few degrees, said sumimasen, and went after the bitch who had fled... the train guard, who i thought would have a go at me, or pull the alarm or something simply said.. "gaijin wa tsurai ne..." not bad for someone who looked like in his late 40s..

this after meeting the same drunkard at my local station and at odori later who came up to me and said:

"very handsome" well, thats true so i grinned... then "what country?" england.. "wonderfull culture! beckham!" then "my wife american! big american!" good for you... then he runs off.. this happened twice.. and was kinda funny..

you know, i know its not good form to get pissed off, as its not good for our image.. but sometimes.. its too much..

[Armandeus]

(This is not meant as a personal criticism, Kotatsuneko, just a statement of difference in opinion.)

Personally, I never think of "our image," only my image. I am not the representative of all foreigners, and I am a resident, not a guest.

[American Oyaji]

Armandeus, I agree but disagree as well.

Sure we are responsible for our own image, but if we provide a decent image, than it may be a little easier for the next FG bloke or gal comin down the pipeline.

[Armandeus]

I understand your point, but I am responsible only for myself. If being responsible in that way indirectly gives someone a good impression of "all foreigners" then fine, but that is not my responsibility.

Lumping all foreigners together is an overgeneralized mistake in the first place, and many of you here in this forum seem to agree when you complain about "foreigners are seen as criminals" or "foreigners are refused apartments" or whatever. The only thing that makes you a foreigner is the fact that you are not a native Japanese citizen. That's obvious, of course, but nothing beyond that can be taken for granted or generalized.

If foreigners dislike being lumped together in such discriminatory ways, then the flip side of that is not to accept the "representative" thing either. Why is that even necessary? Isn't being a responsible individual enough? Why should Foreigner X's actions, good or bad, reflect on me in any way? Foreigner X and his behavior are totally irrelevant for me, especially since he is someone I don't even know.

Being seen as the "representative" of a non-group like "all foreigners" is just more of the "we Japanese" vs. "you foreigners" mentality that is the result of a lack of real internationalization in this country, and accepting it, even for "good," is accepting not being recognized as an individual but only as a member of a stereotypical group. Sorry, but that's not for me.

[kotatsuneko]

this is just my opinion

but the foreigners as a group thing has never, and will never ever change here

there arent too many foreigners in hokkaido, let alone sapporo you know..

most of them seem to be koreans/chinese/thais there arent too many latinos blacks or whites

so we are terribly noticeable

due to that, yes, i do feel that i am seen as part of the group seen as gaijin

attitudes towards us here , in sapporo are largely backward and i am very jealous of you lot living in tokyo/osaka as i guess you have an easier time, albeit with the usual stress of being a gaijin..

i dont really think of my self image, i dont give a flying fig what anyone really thinks of me, outside work, i only care about how i feel about me and my mental/physical health.. but im all to aware that people here dont really meet gaijin often, if ever, so they dont imho think of a gaijin as an individual, but rather as part of a group, them vs us.. if you will

this is just the way i see it

hopefully ill meet those street punks again, and start finding out some real answers.. they seemed very open to discourse...

i mean, ive read so much from foreigners experience in japan, a mini library if you will, but i want to hear from japanese people what they think about issues, maybe ill even try to incorporate some discussions into my future site.. and i want to hear from people not some nihonhinron book.. kind of like that doctor who taped discussions from people in his area, tales of silk and straw i think it was called..

i dont know if this could be seen as a hijack of the thread, i hope not, more of an ofshoot.. i think the peoples views on this forum, coming from situations all around japan are vvvv interesting, and are all of equal merit.. thats why im addicted to this place ^^

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

I understand your point, but I am responsible only for myself. If being responsible in that way indirectly gives someone a good impression of "all foreigners" then fine, but that is not my responsibility.

Lumping all foreigners together is an overgeneralized mistake in the first place, and many of you here in this forum seem to agree when you complain about "foreigners are seen as criminals" or "foreigners are refused apartments" or whatever. The only thing that makes you a foreigner is the fact that you are not a native Japanese citizen. That's obvious, of course, but nothing beyond that can be taken for granted or generalized.

If foreigners dislike being lumped together in such discriminatory ways, then the flip side of that is not to accept the "representative" thing either. Why is that even necessary? Isn't being a responsible individual enough? Why should Foreigner X's actions, good or bad, reflect on me in any way? Foreigner X and his behavior are totally irrelevant for me, especially since he is someone I don't even know.

Being seen as the "representative" of a non-group like "all foreigners" is just more of the "we Japanese" vs. "you foreigners" mentality that is the result of a lack of real internationalization in this country, and accepting it, even for "good," is accepting not being recognized as an individual but only as a member of a stereotypical group. Sorry, but that's not for me.

Did you ever think that it is possible that people don't want your brand of internationalization? No, I guess the world has to choose your way or the highway. Of course, you don't complain at all when people are biased in your favor do you? Japan has a lot to offer so quit your whining before my puke goes into orbit and rains little bitty pieces of corn kernels down on your blunt head.

Cheers!

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

this is just my opinion

but the foreigners as a group thing has never, and will never ever change here

there arent too many foreigners in hokkaido, let alone sapporo you know..

most of them seem to be koreans/chinese/thais there arent too many latinos blacks or whites

so we are terribly noticeable

due to that, yes, i do feel that i am seen as part of the group seen as gaijin

attitudes towards us here , in sapporo are largely backward and i am very jealous of you lot living in tokyo/osaka as i guess you have an easier time, albeit with the usual stress of being a gaijin..

i dont really think of my self image, i dont give a flying fig what anyone really thinks of me, outside work, i only care about how i feel about me and my mental/physical health.. but im all to aware that people here dont really meet gaijin often, if ever, so they dont imho think of a gaijin as an individual, but rather as part of a group, them vs us.. if you will

this is just the way i see it

hopefully ill meet those street punks again, and start finding out some real answers.. they seemed very open to discourse...

i mean, ive read so much from foreigners experience in japan, a mini library if you will, but i want to hear from japanese people what they think about issues, maybe ill even try to incorporate some discussions into my future site.. and i want to hear from people not some nihonhinron book.. kind of like that doctor who taped discussions from people in his area, tales of silk and straw i think it was called..

i dont know if this could be seen as a hijack of the thread, i hope not, more of an ofshoot.. i think the peoples views on this forum, coming from situations all around japan are vvvv interesting, and are all of equal merit.. thats why im addicted to this place ^^

if you are to survive in Japan you must begin to have a sense of humor and the ability to forgive people for their "faults" because, believe me, there is no shortage of faults. Furthermore, in the spirit of "we're all the same people deep down" don't you think it makes sense to think about how yellow people would be treated in the UK if there were all of twenty or so of them around. It is well and good to howl about the people being backward and whatever, but so long as they aren't physically harming you what is the problem? You are an adult, you have traveled, you know better. How about demonstrating that to the populace instead of screaming at them and perpetuating the stereotype of hen na gaijin in Japan. You will feel better too in the end.

My vote is drop the wife by the way. But you are the only one who can make that decision.

[Naniwan Kid]

Personally, I never think of "our image," only my image. I am not the representative of all foreigners, and I am a resident, not a guest.

Like it or not, Armandeus, you are stuck. I think the reason the gaijin at the site here discuss things in these generalzations is because Japan treats us in this way. I agree with your ideal 100%, but it is only that, an ideal. I think I have changed the thinking (if only slightly) of some close Japanese friends in Japan, but I think we are stuck being fucked gaijin till the end (some maybe more fucked than others, but we are all gaijin).

[Armandeus]

Gaidatsuraku

"Did you ever think that it is possible that people don't want your brand of internationalization? No, I guess the world has to choose your way or the highway. Of course, you don't complain at all when people are biased in your favor do you? Japan has a lot to offer so quit your whining..."

I am not whining. I am offering constructive criticism. Go ahead and keep your stereotypes and generalizations, and act as the representative of all foreigners if it makes you happy. Play the stooge. I really don't care. I'll remember to forward all the "can you eat natto" questions to you. As I said, what you do or think is irrelevant to me, because I am not in your "group." And I'm not a newbie to Japan, so don't patronize me.

Naniwan Kid

"...think I have changed the thinking (if only slightly) of some close Japanese friends in Japan..."

That's the whole point. If as an individual you do not play along with stereotypes, and you tactfully make it known to those who try to enforce them on you, you change things one person at a time.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Gaidatsuraku

"Did you ever think that it is possible that people don't want your brand of internationalization? No, I guess the world has to choose your way or the highway. Of course, you don't complain at all when people are biased in your favor do you? Japan has a lot to offer so quit your whining..."

I am not whining. I am offering constructive criticism. Go ahead and keep your stereotypes and generalizations, and act as the representative of all foreigners if it makes you happy. Play the stooge. I really don't care. I'll remember to forward all the "can you eat natto" questions to you. As I said, what you do or think is irrelevant to me, because I am not in your "group." And I'm not a newbie to Japan, so don't patronize me.

Naniwan Kid

"...think I have changed the thinking (if only slightly) of some close Japanese friends in Japan..."

That's the whole point. If as an individual you do not play along with stereotypes, and you tactfully make it known to those who try to enforce them on you, you change things one person at a time.

Blah, blah, blah, boo hoo for the foreigners in Japan. You are so discriminated against and treated so unfairly that I just want to cry my heart out and send in the 101st. Pardon me for patronizing you. You sound like a newbie if there ever was one. I guess our military is chock full of slow learners. Good thing that someone with a brain in his head knows how to write a manual or you guys would probably wind up shooting yourselves.

[Armandeus]

Kiss my ass, Gai. I've been here for 17 years. How about you, moron?

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Kiss my ass, Gai. I've been here for 17 years. How about you, moron?

suck my wang Armadeus, army years don't count. how many real years have you lived in Japan you backwoods Arkie?

[Armandeus]

Not counting Army years, which I spent every non-working hour off-post, I have been here for 14 years (total 17 years straight), you wet-behind-the-ear loudmouthed self-important waste-of-carbon tourist.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Not counting Army years, which I spent every non-working hour off-post, I have been here for 14 years, you wet-behind-the-ear loudmouthed tourist waste of carbon.

Suck my dick you Pops. I am 1/4th Japanese and have spent time there off and on since childhood you know nothing about pre-bubble Japan Arkie motherfucker. I ought to travel up to Nigata and put my foot up your wrinkled cottage cheese ass you whiny piece of white trash.

Any other questions stupid? Go salute yourself for your ignorance. Like most white trash stuck in Japan you are there because there is nothing NOTHING for you anywhere else. In spite of that you still feel sorry for yourself. You went as an adult and you have no one to blame but yourself. And, oh yeah, newsflash: Not all Japanese want to be Americans or be like Americans. So save your PC bullshit for someone who gives a flying fuck you twit.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

PS: Specifically, I predate your first footsteps in Japan by approximately 13 years.

[Armandeus]

Funny, dipshit.

One-quarter Japanese, three-quarters loser? Genetics doesn't mean squat, you inexperienced bigmouthed TOURIST.

Come and get some, if you can. I am not intimidated by your purile cheast-beating.

I don't feel sorry for myself at all. And I am not white trash. I am an educated professional. More than you can say for yourself, probably, since you either work in a gas station or McDonalds with that intellect.

I don't want Japanese to be like the ignorant, arrogant, Americans that you typefy (even if you may be of another Western nationality, what I have seen you post makes me think you are a rabid dittohead).

PC can kiss my ass, when you're done kissing it. I only care about my own situation and those I am responsible for. I certainly don't want to get grouped together with the likes of bottom feeders like you who brown nose the idea that all foreigners are the same ignorant TOURISTS that you are such a good example of.

[Armandeus]

PS: Specifically, I predate your first footsteps in Japan by approximately 13 years.

It makes no difference, because a) you were probably in diapers and you could have been in Egypt and it would not have made a difference to you, and b) coming to Japan for a couple weeks at a time over a period of several years as a clueless outsider and living here continuously for 17 years are totally different. So you lose.

While were having a pissing contest, which you are sorely losing, how about this. I bet you can't read and write Japanese, much less speak it, past the first few pages of the worn-out phrasebook of broken foreigner-talk in your back pocket.

You're messing with the wrong man, Gai.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Dear Shit for Brains,

What's the matter? Did I blow your expectations away. Did you think you were the only one with a significant amount of life experience in Japan. You positively pathetic blowhard. I have been living "Japan" my entire life. I spent signficant time being raised by Japanese.

In spite of this your 3 years of "base work" and 14 years as an English teacher in the mountains qualifies you as someone entitled to an opinion? Come back to the real world dude. For an educated professional your message was laden with so many errors and gaffs that it made me cringe. You wouldn't last two fucking seconds in your own culture.

and, Pops, don't even talk about careers. I very likely paid more in alimony last year than you earned in the last decade. Get real pops, you live in Nigata. There is nothing up there. Who do you think you are kidding?

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

PS: Specifically, I predate your first footsteps in Japan by approximately 13 years.

It makes no difference, because a) you were probably in diapers and you could have been in Egypt and it would not have made a difference to you, and b) coming to Japan for a couple weeks at a time over a period of several years as a clueless outsider and living here continuously for 17 years are totally different. So you lose.

While were having a pissing contest, which you are sorely losing, how about this. I bet you can't read and write Japanese, much less speak it, past the first few pages of the worn-out phrasebook of broken foreigner-talk in your back pocket.

You're messing with the wrong man, Gai.

try me dickhead.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Furthermore, I spent approximately 6 years living and working in Tokyo. Do you remember that city with the bright lights where opportunity eluded you. That's where I was you hapless Arkie.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

PS: Specifically, I predate your first footsteps in Japan by approximately 13 years.

It makes no difference, because a) you were probably in diapers and you could have been in Egypt and it would not have made a difference to you, and b) coming to Japan for a couple weeks at a time over a period of several years as a clueless outsider and living here continuously for 17 years are totally different. So you lose.

While were having a pissing contest, which you are sorely losing, how about this. I bet you can't read and write Japanese, much less speak it, past the first few pages of the worn-out phrasebook of broken foreigner-talk in your back pocket.

You're messing with the wrong man, Gai.

HELLLLOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am still waiting for your pathetic attempt here. Where the fuck are you Southern boy?