Language. NO I DONT SPEAK ENGLISH. I AM FRENCH!

[japslapper]

I am not French actually - I am from Wales-UK - I speak welsh and english at home - English - for money here. What I can`t get my head around - is why - anywhere I go - Tokyo, Osaka etc some Japanese idiot or wanker always approaches me and tries to speak English with me. You guys out there have this problem? Yes I can speak english but I am not going too Brits,Yanks, Aussies etc- real englsih - no problem -but why the fuck should I listen to some "leeches"? I speak japanese and this is Japan right?

The point I am trying to make is these "leeches" really piss me off. Usually they just want to be friends with you because they can practice for free. When I leave my rural wakayama village - where the locals know I speak good Japanese (even the Jap english teachers I work with speak to me in Japanese) - I always carry a very visable copy of the french La Monde news paper - a useful prop.

In Japan we all need Japanese to survive/thrive/get laid(sometimes?) - getting to practice it is soooo difficult - answer back in English etc.

Secondly - its a point of internationalism/racisim. there are other langauges out there. Ok in a hotel in Spain - englsih might work but to talk to the locals you will need spanish. Is it Japanese travel culture(in a bus - take photos -go home) that means they never interact with people outside?

I wish to make a point. this is Japan speak Japanese please. If i speak to you in your langauge please answer me in your langauge. Stop assuming my identity.

I ask you fellow gaijin. Support the french language!

[Caustic Saint]

You've got the right idea. Just toss another language back and keep walking. Korea has this same problem and I'd give 'em a quick "ya nee govoreet p'angleeski" and that'd stop 'em dead.

It's Russian for "I don't speak English."

[AssKissinger]

In Korea, those idiot dog eaters bothered me every time I went out. In Japan this really doesn't happen so much. It used to happen to me sometimes now it's almost never. Trying to pretend you don't speak English doesn't work and by that time it's too late you've already been bothered.

Why doesn't this happen to me any more? I've learned how to make myself seem unapproachable to people I don't like. A lot of gaijin, when they first come to Japan think, "Wow. It's like they have ESP or something." Because Japanese seem really good at telling what you're thinking. And it's true they are good at reading people's body language and facial expression because their language is so indirect they have to learn to from an early age. There's something you're doing, the way you walk, the look on your face, something, that is sending a messege to Japanese people that it's ok to approach you. I've lived in the big city and the countryside and it's both the same. Usually I got my Walkman going and it's clear I'm in my own space and want to keep that way. If you don't want to be bothered you have to put out the same vibe. If you are being bothered you're putting out an 'I want to interact with Japan' vibe. There's no shame in that but people will leech on to it.

When I first came here I was so curious and wanted to interact with everyone. Salary men would give me beers on the train. I wouldn't even say 'Hi' first or anything. They'd just come up to me and say, "You like beer?" I'd go to the park and sit down and sooner or later a chick or two would just walk up to me. Now, I'm way past that shit. I don't want the attention and like magic I don't get it.

A few weeks ago there was an exception. I was by myself at the onsen. Taking a shower. It was a weekday so the place was almost empty. A group of old farts came in. They were all together for some reason.
This one old dude with a big gut was strutting around with his belly sticking out, rubbing it, saying something funny in Japanese. I could see him through the mirror in front of the shower and had a chuckle. Another old geezer caught my chuckle and saw it as an in. Right in the middle of my fucking shower he walks up next to me and says, "Excuse me, may I talk with you?" "No." He looks flustered and confused, "I want to practice my English." "NO!" He walks away like a stupid rejected puppy. Moral? Best answer if bothered and you don't want to be, a big rude in their face NO. "Excuse me, what country?" "NO!" If you don't want to deal with it, be a dick. That's what they get for appraching a stranger. Anything could happen.

And for God's sake have some pride man. Don't claim to be French.

[japslapper]

...ok I wont be French....

cheers guys - one thing it seems is that the only emotion the Japs really understand is fear!. In a normal western democracy, discussion & debate & reason will work - "I am trying to practise my japanese I am here in your country - if you are brave and go to my country then you can speak english" It doesnt work. "NO" "NO" "NO" might just be the best. Bite. and bite them hard! I ll try it.....

[jingai]

So the moral is- you poor gaijin are too polite to tell people what you really feel, and thus get walked all over by the aggressive Japanese. Am I right? I recommend a book for you- "The Japan that Can Say No" by Morita Akio and Ishihara Shintaro. It should help with your gaijin complex.

On a more serious note- if you don't want to speak English, respond in Japanese. Why Russian, French, or rude English? Is it that you can't speak Japanese? If you aren't in the mood to talk, you can say politely "I'm in a hurry" or "Excuse me, I'm a bit busy" or "Maybe next time." Try this in English or Japanese, instead of being rude to the Japanese who are brave enough to try to communicate with people from other cultures. Do you complain when these same people help you when you're staring at a Tokyo or Osaka train schedule, baffled by the kanji?

The ever amusing Dave Arudo wrote an essay called "Language Beggars" about this phenomenon, and surveyed other gaijin about what they thought. Take a look:
http://www.debito.org/languagebeggars.html
http://www.debito.org/beggarsresults.html

[japslapper]

Thanks for that "jingai" ....but this leech thing is out there!. I am blonde blue eyed and look very "gaijin". I sat on the train between kobe and osaka the other day reading the Asahi shinbun in Japanese (not 100% comprehension but I get the jist) and someone walked up to me and tried to start a conversation "where are you from?" or "are you lost?".......

I dont mind freindly Japnese who are trying to communicate with the outside world - its a good thing - except that the narrowminded concept that they all seem to hold - foreign = english. Even now with being able to read and write most kanjis - people I know well are still suprised. For fuck sake its just a language! This is a deeply held predujudiced concept that needs to be challanged if Japan is to hold any international favour in the future.

[AssKissinger]

Do you complain when these same people help you when you're staring at a Tokyo or Osaka train schedule, baffled by the kanji?

If I need that kind of help I ask for it politely in Japanese. If I saw a lost or confused Japanese in America I'd go out of my way to help them. In fact, I have. I translated for some Japanese tourists in America who got on the wrong bus (a potentially serious problem in the states). That's a lot different from some asshole who's just trying to get a free English lesson.

[jingai]

I dont mind freindly Japnese who are trying to communicate with the outside world - its a good thing - except that the narrowminded concept that they all seem to hold - foreign = english. Even now with being able to read and write most kanjis - people I know well are still suprised. For fuck sake its just a language! This is a deeply held predujudiced concept that needs to be challanged if Japan is to hold any international favour in the future.

I would agree with that except to say that in Japan, "foreign=America." For better or worse this is probably just a product of Japan's recent history- from Commodore Perry to MacArthur, Japan has had an unusually close relationship with the United States. Therefore all white people speak English. Well, they do in the Hollywood movies, don't they?
In the US, Asians are widely assumed to be Chinese, whether they are from Japan, Korea, Vietnam, or elsewhere. People make embarrasing mistakes like asking Japanese about tae-kwan do or lo-mein. How are S. Asians treated the UK? Are they all "Pakis" or would people bother to distinguish between nationalities?
So ethnocentricity ain't unique to Japan, and maybe as demographics change attitudes will follow. Isn't that how it works everywhere?

[devicenull]

[Andocrates]

You must learn to think left to right I often bug Japanese to speak Japanese to me, what they do is bury me in complex Japanese - works well on me - I give up real easy and walk off all dejected.

[Caustic Saint]

On a more serious note- if you don't want to speak English, respond in Japanese. Why Russian, French, or rude English? Is it that you can't speak Japanese? If you aren't in the mood to talk, you can say politely "I'm in a hurry" or "Excuse me, I'm a bit busy" or "Maybe next time." Try this in English or Japanese, instead of being rude to the Japanese who are brave enough to try to communicate with people from other cultures.

I do the "third language" thing because I find it funny. I speak a smattering of Korean and only a few words of Japanese.

I've never lived in Japan, and only been there on one short trip. I didn't run into any language beggars on my trip there, but it's a constant hassle in Korea. Honestly, it's not a huge deal, but it gets annoying when you're just trying to get home from work and some random person feels chatty.

[Taro Toporific]

[japslapper]

I would agree with that except to say that in Japan, "foreign=America." For better or worse this is probably just a product of Japan's recent history- from Commodore Perry to MacArthur, Japan has had an unusually close relationship with the United States. Therefore all white people speak English. Well, they do in the Hollywood movies, don't they?
In the US, Asians are widely assumed to be Chinese, whether they are from Japan, Korea, Vietnam, or elsewhere. People make embarrasing mistakes like asking Japanese about tae-kwan do or lo-mein. How are S. Asians treated the UK? Are they all "Pakis" or would people bother to distinguish between nationalities?
So ethnocentricity ain't unique to Japan, and maybe as demographics change attitudes will follow. Isn't that how it works everywhere?[/quote]




Sure Japans main influence in recent history has been the USA - but its been influenced by most countries in one way or another - copying things (ie beer -germany,tempura portugal, nhk-Uk , Chopsticks-china, Language- korea and china) - its copying without interaction which results in a diluted continuation of the Edo jidai. So we can put this blonde foreigner = english/american bit down to ignorance. It will take time to educate them about the other 187 nations and 6000 languages on earth - however this doesnt deal with the concept of courtesy and predjudice (yeah I know there are racist and or ignornant Brits and Americans who call Chinese japanese and Indians "Pakis") but the problem is epidemic in comparason I think(though this expereince has helped me to undersatand the minoritys back home) - but in Britain does the average indian have a 5 times a day experience of someone saying "teach me how to make nice curry" or in America does the average Chinese have a five a day experience of someone wanting lessons in Kong-Fu? - NO! they dont.

Here in Japan its a thing of courtesy and predjudice. "We as foreigners are human beings too. We have our langauge and our ideas - we are the same as you(believe it or not) we dont have shorter intestines- and we can just as easily learn your language and we can use chopsticks"

Ask a Korean or Chinese here in Japan - they have a hard time. Ours is the same except we blondies usually come from "a senior ranking country" and the koreans come from an "inferior" country. Its the same thing just the predjudice is bent differently.

. My conclusion is forget english lets get Japan working on its interface with the outside world first.

[Caustic Saint]

Japslapper, after reading the above post, and the thread on being a golddigger with bored housewives, I agree with Josh - you need to write a book. Put that new computer to good use!

[Crispy]

If and when I ever move to Japan for any length of time, I am going to learn how to say something convincingly in about ten different white person languages, just to mess with people. I already have Spanish and French taken care of, I need something to say in German, Russian, Greek, Italian, Portugese, Swedish...

[Caustic Saint]

If and when I ever move to Japan for any length of time, I am going to learn how to say something convincingly in about ten different white person languages, just to mess with people. I already have Spanish and French taken care of, I need something to say in German, Russian, Greek, Italian, Portugese, Swedish...

Russian: Novaya sckatert, radosht zhena. (A new tablecloth is a joy to the wife.)

German: Die Luft ist kuhl und es dunkelt im Abendsonnenschein. (The air is cool and it's growing dark in the evening sunshine.)

Swedish: MMMM BORK! BORK! BORK! (translation not needed)

[devicenull]

If and when I ever move to Japan for any length of time, I am going to learn how to say something convincingly in about ten different white person languages, just to mess with people. I already have Spanish and French taken care of, I need something to say in German, Russian, Greek, Italian, Portugese, Swedish...

Deutsch: Wo sind meine Hosen? Habst du meine Hosen gesehen? Aha, meinen Schwanz ist zu dick fuer meine Hosen. Darum, Ich brannte die Katze bei der Geschirrspuelmaschine. Warum hasbt du deine Hand auf meinen Schwanze?

[maraboutslim]

As your Japanese improves and you display "appropriate" body language for a resident of Japan, they will stop speaking English to you. I lived in Tokyo for six years and only got spoken to in English for the first six months. After that, they can just tell that my Japanese was going to be better than their English: and few Japanese are brave enough to want to embrass themselves with their lame English in cases such as that. Like Asskisser said, they are masters of reading body language.

In other words, if you don't want to be spoken to as if you were a fresh off the boat gaijin, stop looking/acting like a fresh off the boat gaijin. Just as one can be linguistically bilingual, one can also maintain two sets of behavior in their brain and switch back and forth so that you appear to be a local in your home country and a local in Japan depending on which switch you throw in your brain.

-Slim

[devicenull]

um, im going to agree with slim on this... dont expect people to change their nature whereever you go just so you feel more comfortable... body language says alot no matter where you go... act like a tourist and you will be treated like one.. stop trying to pass the buck

[japslapper]

This is not a thing of national character its a case of racism, humanity and world peace.
Read the following:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/3137133.stm

Most of us gaijin are english speaking from USA,UK,Canada,Aussi,NZ so maybe we dont care - easy for us right?

It is important to a lot of people. These frigin Japs are more culturally imperialistic with our culture than we are!

I saw the other day some travel program. In kazakstan the young punk and his missus we greating all the local peasants with "Hello" "Hello" "Hello". These poor locals probably went to bed that night and go....at least we can beg in Tokyo now knowing some of the local language....

The other thing is like the other day an aquaintance(he gives me free beer ) at snack mamas asked weather beer was expensive in "gaikoku". I gave him the data for the slovakian republic where beer is 3yen a litre . I mean the world has a population of 6billion. americans represent 5 percent of that and brits 1 percent (Japs 2 percent)
how the fuck can I be a reliable resource when I can at most represent the 1% that is my country?

Ok, most english speaking countries fight the same wars together and such (so on NHK news we are the same thing) but how can they be so ignorant? .......Cant they see that despit the politics there is a lot variety out there?

Fight the ignorant racist Japan....Fight

[Andocrates]

It's interesting because I just had this debate on a Japanese learning sight with a fair amount of Japanese. It took us 25 posts to finally convince them why we don't like the term gaijin (we were temporarily sidetracked by some a-hole Germans with a Japan fixation - the Japanese can do no wrong)

I think it was a revelation to them how we equate the term gaijin and gaikokujin with an unwanted outsider, foreigner - and how once they learn our names it's just common decency to use them. I pointed out that even the US immigration service avoids using the term foreigner, and they came back with "resident alien" being even worse. But there are at least a handful of Japanese now who will refrain from using gaijin on you

So if they say it now it's because they want to insult you. There was a time when I used Jap without thinking but a Japanese person called me on it - and once I knew I could no longer use the term innocently.

[Big Booger]

If they won the war, then I could see how the term "jap" could be considered derogatory.


But history tells another tale. They lost. Therefore they are Japs.

Just fucking... who gives a rats ass about the term Jap.. if you say it, say it. If not, then piss off. I am so sick and tired of all the moaning about this is right and this is wrong.. who gives a shit. I don't. Say whatever flows out of your mouth, just stand behind your convictions when you do.

[Andocrates]

Some of us do care, sorry if that is lost on you. Have fun getting through your life alone.

[Naniwan Kid]

I am amazed by some of the experiences you guys have had. I have NEVER met a Japanese person who rejected my Japanese, even when it was pretty broken. I have mostly been in bigger cities (Tokyo, Kobe, Osaka, etc...) and have come up to complete strangers asking for directions, and it doesn't matter if it is an old lady or a teenager, I usually get a direct polite response to a direct polite question. Sometimes at information booths I will ask in Japanese, and get a response in English, but I think that is kinda cool. It reminds me of a few scenes in Blade Runner. One time at a hospital the nurse responded to me in German, but that is because most medical students are required to learn some German (that is what a dentist friend of mine told me).

I don't fantasize about assimilating myself into the Japanese culture, I rather prefer my red hair and green eyes to black hair and black eyes, but I do know that I can "fit" into certain situations, and I try to make those situations happen more than not.

[cstaylor]

sidetracked by some a-hole Germans with a Japan fixation - the Japanese can do no wrong)

It's not the first time... those two damn countries have fixated on each other ever since the days of the Russo-Japanese war (source: The Guns of August by Barbara Tuchman).

and they came back with "resident alien" being even worse.

Yeah, I somehow don't remember the last time using that in a sentence... "look at those resident aliens!" ]So if they say it now it's because they want to insult you[/quote]I don't find it insulting... more annoying than insulting. But keep up the good work anyways... maybe you can convince some Japanese to start learning the proper pronunciation of names... then we'll be getting somewhere.

[Big Booger]

Some of us do care, sorry if that is lost on you. Have fun getting through your life alone.

Ha...

[ramchop]

I think it was a revelation to them how we equate the term gaijin and gaikokujin with an unwanted outsider, foreigner - and how once they learn our names it's just common decency to use them.

Is there another Japanese word for "foreigner" or are you hoping to force a new word into their language?

[Taro Toporific]

...once they learn our names it's just common decency to use them.

Is there another Japanese word for "foreigner" or are you hoping to force a new word into their language?

I always refer to myself as an uchujin

[Caustic Saint]

Is there another Japanese word for "foreigner" or are you hoping to force a new word into their language?

I always refer to myself as an uchujin

What is that thing? It looks like a Chao from the Sonic Adventure games.

[Andocrates]

I think it was a revelation to them how we equate the term gaijin and gaikokujin with an unwanted outsider, foreigner - and how once they learn our names it's just common decency to use them.

Is there another Japanese word for "foreigner" or are you hoping to force a new word into their language?

No not at all, but if you know my name please use it.