First Foreign Nurses Pass State Examination

[Mulboyne]

... you would have a difficult time coming up with any studies of that nature...

Britain is currently looking at just this issue, prompted by the case of Dr Daniel Ubani.

[Coligny]

I guess being involved in the training of nurses over here I best wade into this debate. Nottu, I can tell you right now the quality of Japanese nurses is scrapping the bottom of the barrel. While they may have the requisit language skills, they seem to have sacrificed any higher cognitive functioning in the deal. While I have never encountered any of the foreign nurses, I would suppose that these are some of the best and most ambitious students you are likely to find given the screening process they have to go through just to enter the program, and are unlikely to, for example, to mistake distilled water for saline solution, or to be administer uncorrect dosages because they lack basic thinking skills. The reality is that there is such a shortage of nurses that they are accepting anyone/ thing with a heartbeat into the the nursing school program. When I started out I would guess that I would be scared to be treated by maybe 2-5% of my students. Nowadays, I would put the figure at about 25%.

Most of the students being there just to snag a young Doctor and stop working...

Me Djooly had to give lecture to student nurses too while in Nagoya... Not her favorit activity...
Dad in law best Mah Jong buddy is director of the local nurse school... same...

[nottu]

[Mulboyne]

...The "growing realization that Japan may need qualified staff from overseas" does not square with the current unemployment figures...

It's not a simple headcount issue. The absolute unemployment rate tells you nothing about the availability of people with the right skills and incentives to fill particular needs. Japan has an abundance of cosmetic surgeons but an acute shortage of obstetricians and midwives - insufficient for even today's birthrate. Industry is desperately looking for engineers and can't find them in the domestic workforce.

To take an example of an area where overseas imports are of no benefit, Japan has a shortage of lawyers. The Bar Association began a programme to increase the numbers of qualified lawyers but a recent survey showed 40% of legal trainees haven't received a job offer this year. Not only is the headline unemployment rate of little use in telling us anything about the availability of skilled labour, it tells us absolutely nothing about the best way of resolving specific market failures.

On the case of Dr Ubani, I did no cursory internet search on language failures in healthcare to turn that up. It was a heavily covered case in Britain and, since I had already introduced the example of foreign staff in our health service, it seemed highly pertinent to the discussion here, specifically to your comments.

The GMC and BMA have both responded by calling for restrictions but that isn't evidence that Britain has fully surveyed language failures. Their response is the reason such failures are being reviewed, which is why I said Britain is looking at the issue. Those bodies have incentives to increase their oversight authority and protect the competitive position of British doctors so it's natural to be sceptical of their claims.

This is being played out against an important backdrop here. The Conservative party, the senior partner in our governing coalition, campaigned for a policy of restricting immigration. Unless we pull out of the EU, there is little that can be done to control movement between EU partners so, a few weeks ago, the government introduced the country's first cap on Tier 1 visas for non-EU workers. I can't directly link to an FT article but, if you search Google News for "Business attacks cap on skilled immigrants", you'll find their report on how industry, usually the party's natural allies, is strongly opposed to the move.

The GMC and BMA recommendations are music to the ears of the Conservatives because it gives them grounds to consider restrictions on a class of EU immigrant workers. Another important consideration is their desire to reduce the scale of Britain's National Health Service. The NHS is the largest beneficiary of overseas healthcare workers so placing limits on their ability to recruit from abroad in the name of patient safety would help them achieve that goal.

The question you raise about whether the Ubani case resulted from language problems or incompetence is the same one now being asked here. He was suspended by German medical authorities for incompetence but still allowed to practice which suggests their professional bodies are just like their British counterparts in protecting their own.

Japan can monitor these sorts of developments in other parts of the world but it's arguable whether they can be of much help when it comes to the country's own situation. However, if you believe, in the face of evidence to the contrary, that Japan does not face skills shortages in the healthcare profession then I'm not sure why you would even want to do that.

[nottu]

[Mulboyne]

...the idea that headline unemployment and the need for persons having specific skill sets supports the argument for immigration as some sort of self-evident truth is part of the same narrow thinking as that of language deficiency not in any way possibly affecting patient safety...

No one here has argued language deficiency couldn't possible affect patient safety and no-one here has made a general case for immigration based on Japan's requirement for skills so I'm not sure who think you have to counter.

We've been considering specific solutions for specific problems. So far your only concrete proposal has been to study issues caused by non-Japanese healthcare providers in Japan which would seem to be problematic given that overseas professionals don't have a statistically significant presence from which to draw any general conclusions.

[nottu]

[Mulboyne]

...Your specific solutions are nothing more than the singular, simplistic "solution" of immigration...

Nothing I've written could lead anyone to that conclusion.

Since it's becoming clear that Japan faces a general recruitment problem the solutions will need to address how to get higher quality staff domestically through better training and working conditions or else how to incorporate overseas-qualified staff into the workforce. Some combination of both policies would seem to be the best option but the second would be faster to implement.

[nottu]

[Mulboyne]

...It must be my misinterpretation...

We've yet to see any outline of the logical proposals you have so I'm not convinced the onus is on me here.

You can start from wherever you wish. If you rule out overseas nurses and caregivers except on the terms currently being offered then the requirement to meet demand domestically will be greater. It's clearly the solution which would satisfy the larger part of the Japanese population but it remains a pipe dream without a practical implementation plan.

[Greji]

It must be my misinterpretation

That's rights! This is Japan and I don't want no foreign nurse looking at me. I want your avatar immediately, if not sooner......Then maybe we could work in a filipina for my rehibilitation....

[Mulboyne]

The Minister of Health has just announced he is looking at a proposal to include English translations of some of the technical terms in the exams for next year. The idea will be discussed this week but the Minister said he believes the exams will be modified in some way.

Japanese

[Bucky]

The Minister of Health has just announced he is looking at a proposal to include English translations of some of the technical terms in the exams for next year. The idea will be discussed this week but the Minister said he believes the exams will be modified in some way.

Japanese

From the Japan Times:

Nursing exam to include English translation
Kyodo News

A health ministry panel on Tuesday compiled a set of changes in the national nursing examination that include providing English translations to explain difficult Japanese terms for foreigners.

The measures will be reflected in the next test in February, panel members said.

More than 1,000 applicants have come to Japan from Indonesia and the Philippines under bilateral free-trade agreements, but the passage rate for the exam has been low because the kanji and technical terms used in the exam are believed to pose a high hurdle for foreign examinees.

Similar steps are to be taken in the national examination for caregivers.

For medical and nursing terms, translations will be provided for disease names such as diabetes so applicants who are familiar with English can better understand Japanese, the panel members said.

But the panel decided not to rephrase technical terms in Japanese due to fear it could spark confusion in actual usage if different words are used to express them, the members said.

For general terms, difficult Japanese words will be rephrased as plain expressions. Sentences and phrases difficult to restate will have hiragana next to the kanji characters or have subjects and predicates specified, they said.

"Next year's national exam will be considerably different from the previous tests," Shinya Adachi, parliamentary secretary for the ministry, said at a news conference Monday.

[Mulboyne]

The Minister of Health has just announced he is looking at a proposal to include English translations of some of the technical terms in the exams for next year. The idea will be discussed this week but the Minister said he believes the exams will be modified in some way.

The Ministry has also said similar changes maybe extended to the exam for care workers.

Source (Japanese)

[Screwed Up Eyes]

[Bucky]

[BigInJapan]

[Kanchou]

Using an online dictionary would save a lot of time...lol

[Mulboyne]

16 foreign nurses passed the state examination, a success rate of 4%. It's an improvement on only three qualifiers last year but still well short of the Japanese pass rate of 91.8% and any level which would make the programme a significant contributor to local health service staffing.

For 91 of this year's 398 foreign examinees, it was their third and final chance to take the test. 13 succeeded. Under the original programme, the unsuccessful 78 are now supposed to return home. It seems, however, that any nurse with a score approaching the pass mark, and who is judged to want to succeed, will be able to extend their stay for an additional year.

One of the Indonesian nurses who qualified on her final attempt has already said she wants to work in tsunami-hit areas.

[Coligny]

Considering how ridiculous the doctor exam has become, maybe they should cut those girl some slack, since they seems to be already nurse in their homeland...

(knows a guy, fireman, who since he just married an obgyn -me bit... julie friend- took the entrance exam nearly just for shit and giggles... and succeeded... he's the first to be surprised....)

Sidenote, porn consideration aside, i'd trust 10000x10^bajilions times more a Philipino nurse here to work and send money back home rather than a J-nurse mostly here to get knocked up by a doctor-marry and stop working...and beside, all those movies with j-nurse cleaning patient bungholes with their tongues are starting to really creep me out...

/of to vomit...

[Pearse]

Considering how ridiculous the doctor exam has become, maybe they should cut those girl some slack, since they seems to be already nurse in their homeland...

(knows a guy, fireman, who since he just married an obgyn -me bit... julie friend- took the entrance exam nearly just for shit and giggles... and succeeded... he's the first to be surprised....)

Sidenote, porn consideration aside, i'd trust 10000x10^bajilions times more a Philipino nurse here to work and send money back home rather than a J-nurse mostly here to get knocked up by a doctor-marry and stop working...and beside, all those movies with j-nurse cleaning patient bungholes with their tongues are starting to really creep me out...

/of to vomit...

It's really hard to understand what you write.

[Yokohammer]

It's really hard to understand what you write.

It's an acquired taste.

Please forgive our Coligny. He's a little weird, but we love him anyway.
(Of course none of us others are in the least bit odd ... yip yip ... woot woot ... yee har ... ).

[Coligny]

It's really hard to understand what you write.

The standard for the Med University entrance is getting lower and lower (less student overall, so they can't be choosy). To the point where a fireman who barely studied managed to pass it.

Those philipino girls are already nurse in their country (or so it seems).

The Japanese exam for these nurse is a farce, difficulty is not in the question themselves. But in the fact that those retards have certainly written them in the most fucked up japanese wording possible. (like the written driving test if you prefer, where it's not aboot the rules of the road but aboot your aptitude in second guessing questions written by a bunch of psychopath).

In fine, who would you trust more:

A philipino nurse working in Japan to provide for her family at home.

Or some random J-nurse-cum-spunk-dumpster who only decided to be nurse because it make it easier to hunt for a rich doctor husband and clearly don't give a crap aboot the job.

[Greji]

In fine, who would you trust more:

A philipino nurse working in Japan to provide for her family at home.

Or some random J-nurse-cum-spunk-dumpster who only decided to be nurse because it make it easier to hunt for a rich doctor husband and clearly don't give a crap aboot the job.

Ahh, am I wrong if I spring for the cum-spunk-dumpster?

[Coligny]

Ahh, am I wrong if I spring for the cum-spunk-dumpster?

Depends... I can have your stuff if sumething happenz ?

[Mulboyne]

When one Filipino passed on the first attempt last year, there was some hope that Filipino nurses might prove to be faster learners than their Indonesian counterparts. Only two Indonesians passed within two years in last year's test. We haven't had a full breakdown of the successful candidates this year but we know that 13 of the 16 were Indonesians on their third attempt. This means only a maximum of three Filipinos could have passed this year which isn't a great deal better whether they did so on their first or second attempts.

The Filipinos could yet turn out to have better 3rd year performances and we'll see that next year. At the moment, though, they look to be on a similar trajectory as the Indonesians, which won't provide much of a corps or nurses for the health service in Japan.

[cstaylor]

Wouldn't it be faster to just teach the patients and doctors English? I read that speaking two languages helps fight dementia, so it'd be solving two problems at the same time.

[FG Lurker]

It's really hard to understand what you write.

It's usually worth the effort.

[Coligny]

Wouldn't it be faster to just teach the patients and doctors English? I read that speaking two languages helps fight dementia, so it'd be solving two problems at the same time.

Back in the days, german was mandatory... because you knowz... all them medical publication being in english it was totally a priority to be able to read Mercobenz user manuals in their untranslated form instead... (yeah, I make no sense on purpose... just a parallel to this practice).

I don't know for sure nowadays... But in the local hospital I'm sure only aboot 2 docs speaking english, me bit... hemmm Julie, and the former pediatric doctor of me daughter... (even if 2 be honest, 2 categories of docs should be able to do their work without input from the relatives or patients: pediatrics, because parents always over-react and vets... for the same reason... that and babies as well as cats are supposed to be diagnose-able without being able to properly describe their symptoms by themselves).

Now if you go to Korea... 1-they all speak english 2-they are like totally happy to have a patient to speak a bit some foreign language... don't expect to have too much rest while being there despite the fact that hospital rooms are as confortable as japanese hotels (while japanese hospitals are closer to Russian jails, with a clean paint job)...

[Greji]

Double post-gomen