Confronting the Japanese

[Alcazar]

Have any FGs ever lost their temper with Japanese when they displayed their racism, blithe ignorance and indifference to Japan's past atrocities, or their contempt for the outside world?

Did you tell them what Japan has done during World War Two? About the millions of Chinese and other Asians killed? War prisoners tortured and worked to death? Confront them about the Burakumin? Their famous cruelty to animals?

Surely it must be tempting to do so on occasions?

Once I was standing in a line at Tokyo Disneyland with a member of my host family and I asked about the Japanese treatment of Koreans. She just said, 'Sshhh, there might be Koreans about', and left it at that.

[Taro Toporific]

Have any FGs ever lost their temper ...
Did you tell them what Japan has done during World War Two?

Easy.
NEVER BRING UP THE TOPIC FIRST. It never results in any good.

Bringing up the topic WWII in Japan is sort of a variation of GODWIN'S LAW , that is: "As a discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many newsgroups whoever mentions the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.
GODWIN'S LAW http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[Alcazar]

Bringing up the topic WWII in Japan is sort of a variation of GODWIN'S LAW , that is: "As a discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many newsgroups whoever mentions the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.
GODWIN'S LAW http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

That an interesting point, a sign that the discussion is getting immature and that some people are getting frustrated, so they start making Nazi comparisons.

But have you ever enlightened the Japanese about your ideas on some of these controversial subjects? Do the Japanese EVER discuss WW2 themselves, as in initiate a conversation on the topic? If they don't know anything about that important time in history perhaps we should teach them?

[Taro Toporific]

But have you ever enlightened the Japanese about your ideas on some of these controversial subjects? Do the Japanese EVER discuss WW2 themselves, as in initiate a conversation on the topic?

Yes.
On rare occasions I've shared stories with them AFTER they first mentioned it.

Ochanomisu station will never be the same for me again after hearing about the oil slick 3cm deep for the melt-off from bodies. Very deep... hearing of the firebombing of Tokyo with no malice towards me. And then my describing my father's airframe modifications/engineering for the firebombing of Dresden that wiped most of his family so the Ovens would stop burning the other branch of the family.

Such conversations are a waste of time with the young, anymore than trying to discuss the French and Indian War in N. America at a Britney Spears concert.

[GomiGirl]

Rule of thumb - DON'T MENTION THE WAR... it is a pretty lame-ass thing to use in a fight.

I mean the people who were involved on BOTH sides were no angels but more importantly unless you can prove or know that the person you are arguing with is a real-live war criminal than you are only making yourself look stupid.

It is like somebody saying that because I have an Australian passport, I come from bad stock and am a convict.. pretty lame because it is untrue for my case.

If you are having an argument with anybody, you should always stay on the topic at hand and not bring up something irrelevant in a vain attempt to score points.

Ignore all of the above if you are happy to look like an idiot.

[japslapper]

But have you ever enlightened the Japanese about your ideas on some of these controversial subjects? Do the Japanese EVER discuss WW2 themselves, as in initiate a conversation on the topic? If they don't know anything about that important time in history perhaps we should teach them?

Not bloody likely! Have you seen the text books which munbushou uses for teaching history? Official bullshit.

I have discussed things with a few Japanese but they are an absolute minority. And debate - they find it difficult. For example I am teaching English privately to a local doctor(aged 45) - this guy is soooo keen to learn (according to his wife hes studying 2 or 3 hours a night - I cant give him enough homework!) - this week we worked on the death penalty debate - but all the time he was trying to ensure I aggreed with him! Debate and independant thinking requires forming a rational opinions from the best information available with out subject to emotional bias(like what your best friend thinks etc). My student is trying but I am having to teach him to think independantly!

Have you looked at Japanese newspapers? Opinion(from "authority") and lots of facts but not balancing of complex issues. Look at the letter section!

Amnesty International originated with a British laywer writing a letter to the Observer Newspaper about some Portugeuse prisoners -The Brit started a debate and an international organisation.

The same at present could never happen in Japan

I ask you folks to have a look at http://www.amnesty.org

compare the Japan,Uk,US,Aus pages etc. I tell you Japans is the only with the online shop for soap being a major feature!

[GargoyleTS]

It is like somebody saying that because I have an Australian passport, I come from bad stock and am a convict.. pretty lame because it is untrue for my case.

You mean your not a bad girl? Dang...

As for the arguements above, Taro already mentioned the Nazi's, so he lost.

[GomiGirl]

Ignore all of the above if you are happy to look like an idiot.

Also, how comfortable are you to have accusations leveled at you about the attrocities committed by your country of origin? Are you prepared to take responsibility for things that you had nothing to do with or perhaps were not in favour of?

There is not one nationality that is free of persecution or some sort of tmarviny in the past against another country or group of people or abuse of animals at some time in history.... if you can name one, I would be impressed.

Those without sin throw the first stone.. (sic)

[GargoyleTS]

Ignore all of the above if you are happy to look like an idiot.

Also, how comfortable are you to have accusations leveled at you about the attrocities committed by your country? Are you prepared to take responsibility for things that you had nothing to do with or perhaps were not in favour of?

Those without sin throw the first stone.. (sic)

Ah, but Gomi, did you not realise that as a White (skinned) American Male, I am personally responsible for Slavery of the Black Man, Depriving women of Equality, and killing many people in many places on the planet Earth, and need to be constantly reprimanded and loathed for these actions? This whole topic disturbs me. To those who want to talk to Japanese about it: Are you bringing the subject up to do anything constructive? Why bring it up? To make them feel bad?

And on the Nazi point: Do you talk to Germans about the Nazis?

[yellowlightman]

When I was staying with a host family, my group of students went to the Hiroshima memorial. When I got back and I was driving home with my host family my host sister turns aroudn and says "Americans are bad." There was a lot I wanted to say... But didn't.

I realized it was kinda pointless. What did impress me was in school she was learning about Hitler and the Nazis... That's something, right?

[GomiGirl]

Ah, but Gomi, did you not realise that as a White (skinned) American Male, I am personally responsible for Slavery of the Black Man, Depriving women of Equality, and killing many people in many places on the planet Earth, and need to be constantly reprimanded and loathed for these actions?

Who is accusing you of being personally responsible? Certainly not people like me!! If people accuse you of this then isn't this their ignorance? No need to stoop to this level.

Where I was born and how I have lived is unimportant. It is what I have done with where I have been that should be of interest.
--Georgia O'Keefe

Rather than take an accusatory tone, it is better to discuss issues as historical facts that should not be repeated. We may not live in Utopia, however, it is better to have this as an ideal to be attempted.

[Taro Toporific]

And on the Nazi point: Do you talk to Germans about the Nazis?

Well, I have mantioned it during homestay in Germany but only because it was somehow topical at the time. It wasn't real productive either. On the other hand, at least they were well read on the topic young and old.

As for the arguements above, Taro already mentioned the Nazi's, so he lost.

Hey, at least I haven't collected ass avatar, yet.

[AssKissinger]

HOLY SHIT! That is an Ass that looks like Kissinger. May I have that avatar?

[cstaylor]

When I was staying with a host family, my group of students went to the Hiroshima memorial.

Did the students actually read the inscriptions on what the children were doing in Hiroshima the time the bomb went off? The ones I remember reading listed that they had been put to work by the local military authority creating firebreaks, in case the Allies decided to firebomb them like they did Tokyo. In short, the military put children into harm's way rather than surrender and face punishment. Compare this to the English in London during the Blitz: under bombardment from the Germans, parents were urged to send their children to the countryside by the government.

Of course, the least politic (and quickest way to end the argument) answer is to point out, "that's okay. A far larger number of your close neighbors think the same of you."

[cstaylor]

Have any FGs ever lost their temper ...
Did you tell them what Japan has done during World War Two?

Easy.
NEVER BRING UP THE TOPIC FIRST. It never results in any good.

That is the best advice. How does that go, "if you have nothing pleasant to say, don't say anything at all". Now, if a Japanese brings the topic up first, and heaven forbid wants to actually discuss it, change the subject as soon as possible, because both sides are just regurgitating what other people have told them.

Or you could just point out that Hirohito himself, in his only interview to the press in the 1970's (after his return from visiting the United States), expressed regret over the nuclear bombing of two cities, but pointed out that it was a war after all.

[Col.Kilgore]

Hey, they only don't wanna talk about it coz they lost! Look how they talk about all those wars and battles they did win: Especially when they kicked Limey's but big time in Singapore and HK!

[Col.Kilgore]

Good job Uncle Sam was there to bail all your asses out in WWI and WWII or the world would be speaking German and Japanese! Wonder if there would be a #Japanese# NOVA in jolly old England as the natives tried to speak the language of the master race?


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# Japanese - edited by mod
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[AssKissinger]

Good job Uncle Sam was there to bail all your asses out in WWI and WWII or the world would be speaking German and Japanese!

Ultra, do you think you could set it up so you have to pass an IQ test before membership is awarded?

[Big Booger]

I and a middle aged ojiisan at a after work get together got on the topic of war. I was amongst several non-Americans, and they were beating my country down to dirt.. about our actions in Iraq, and this and that...

I didn't agree with the war, but I could see the moral reasoning behind it.. basically to remove a "threat" and make way for "democracy".

Of course I am not blind and I know the US stands to gain from the oil, trade etc.. with Iraq and that it took a priority (*protecting oil rigs while museums and hospitals were being looted)

Well I had heard just about enough of their slamming the US.. not BUSH but the US.. How can Americans do such a thing.. to make war without provocation... and I had recently read "Ghost Soldiers" and the "Rape of Nanking" as well as seen a few documentaries on Discovery...

So I fire back with what they did to the Chinese, Philippino people, North and South Korea and so on...

I asked them had they heard of Japanese cutting open the vaginas of babies so they could get deeper penetration for sex... I asked them about Japanese military scientists using Chinese to test the freezing point of a human, the boiling effects, mustard gas effects, even the effect of Hydrochloric acid on the brain.. I went on and on about every autrocity I could think of.. needless to say when I had finished the whole damn place was silent..

And then I said, that cannot even touch the skin of what went on in Iraq... so in the future before you comment on the actions the US takes in the world, you need to think about your own past.

Of course I wasn't saying yeah the American Military machine is the greatest in the world and can do no harm. We have tortured and killed and raped aplenty.. my point was, how could they sit there and rip into the US, when their grandpappies and grandmammies were all involved in what went on in Manchuria, Nanking, Baatan, etc... comfort women, Korean slavery, the burning to death of POWs right before the war ended, the starvation of those same POWs and so on..

War isn't a pretty thing, but when someone goes pointing a finger you gotta remember you have three other fingers pointing back.

[cstaylor]

I and a middle aged ojiisan at a after work get together got on the topic of war. I was amongst several non-Americans, and they were beating my country down to dirt.. about our actions in Iraq, and this and that...

That and "shitsukoi jiji" can usually change the subject pretty quick.

[Col.Kilgore]

Big Booger well done! There's a case of beer on its way to ya, courtesy of the boys at Air Cav. 7th Div.
Seriously folks, the next time any #j-person# tries to take the moral high ground just mention those three little words: 'Nanking' 'rape' 'of' . Guaranteed to shoot them down before they even get started!

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Note - racial slurs will not be tolerated..

[Big Booger]

Yeah I would think so

But he was a bit tanked and I was hitting the SuperDry like Mark McGwire in a homerun race.


Normally I'd have just said, "ahhh souuu..." "ehhhhh" or something like that. But with Asahi SD confidence I was ripping to rip into them.

[Col.Kilgore]

BB, you can ride in my chopper anytime... we'll go in at 300feet, put Wagner on the loud speakers, and scare the shit out of 'em!

[Snapped]

Good job Uncle Sam was there to bail all your asses out in WWI and WWII or the world would be speaking German and Japanese!

It's a shame then that "Uncle Sam" was late for both those wars.

[Alcazar]

I asked them had they heard of Japanese cutting open the vaginas of babies so they could get deeper penetration for sex... I asked them about Japanese military scientists using Chinese to test the freezing point of a human, the boiling effects, mustard gas effects, even the effect of Hydrochloric acid on the brain.. I went on and on about every autrocity I could think of.. needless to say when I had finished the whole damn place was silent..

And then I said, that cannot even touch the skin of what went on in Iraq... so in the future before you comment on the actions the US takes in the world, you need to think about your own past.

Big Booger, I think what you did was great.
Yes the historical revisionists of the West want us to feel 'guilt' at the past actions of people of similar ancestory to us: 'Whatever'. We should be conscious of history, but not crippled by events that took place in another time, another place.....

But the difference between us and the Japanese is that we are actually aware of some events prior to the invention of the compact disc player. When it comes to history Japanese are pig ignorant and we as intelligent worldly gaijin are not, or shouldn't be. Education at the hands of a gaijin is beneficial for Japanese.

I've thought about this issue, whether to tell them about Japan's crimes or just stay silent in the face of a provoking situation and keep thinking 'Just keep smiling, you are taking their money after all'. But I know myself that I would lose my temper and I would have to become a 'history teacher'.

History and politics mean too much to me to be abused in front of my face, maybe I though I should really think before I lose my temper on this issue in Japan. I guess it depends where I am, and who I am talking to....

[Alcazar]

Rule of thumb - DON'T MENTION THE WAR... it is a pretty lame-ass thing to use in a fight.

I mean the people who were involved on BOTH sides were no angels but more importantly unless you can prove or know that the person you are arguing with is a real-live war criminal than you are only making yourself look stupid.

If you are having an argument with anybody, you should always stay on the topic at hand and not bring up something irrelevant in a vain attempt to score points.

I am saying the Japanese should be educated if they do things like this:

When I was staying with a host family, my group of students went to the Hiroshima memorial. When I got back and I was driving home with my host family my host sister turns around and says "Americans are bad." There was a lot I wanted to say... But didn't.

If that happened to me, and I'm not even American, I would suppress my anger and slowly and calmly start teaching the ignorant Japanese in question. I would ask why do you think this? And build from there. The Japanese approach to WW2 can be really be described by the phrase 'A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing'.

I watched 'Good Morning Vietnam' in Japan with my host brother once. Afterwards I was explaining the history of the Vietnam war to him. He was about 20 and had never even heard of the event.....

It is like somebody saying that because I have an Australian passport, I come from bad stock and am a convict.. pretty lame because it is untrue for my case.

But this would be true if your ancestors were sent to the colonies for life in industrial revolution England for stealing a handkerchief?

[GomiGirl]

Rule of thumb - DON'T MENTION THE WAR... it is a pretty lame-ass thing to use in a fight.

I mean the people who were involved on BOTH sides were no angels but more importantly unless you can prove or know that the person you are arguing with is a real-live war criminal than you are only making yourself look stupid.

If you are having an argument with anybody, you should always stay on the topic at hand and not bring up something irrelevant in a vain attempt to score points.

I am saying the Japanese should be educated if they do things like this:

I think your original post was saying that you wanted to throw up some points about Japanese attrocities when you were having an argument with a Japanese person and was frustrated.

When arguing it is always best to stay on-topic and not dredge up unrelated incidents just to score points.

If you are arguing about "war" that might be another issue.. but I don't particularly want to get into it as I have never personally had a problem.

BTW I am no expert on wars and who did what as in most cases both sides are as bad as each other.. just my opinion.

[cliffy]

Good job Uncle Sam was there to bail all your asses out in WWI and WWII or the world would be speaking German and Japanese!

It's a shame then that "Uncle Sam" was late for both those wars.

Yes and a shame that "Uncle Sam-ites" forget the "assistance" of others who saved their butts more than twice in ALL theatres of the war.

Sorry CS but it is late after a long shift and I can't find the relevant(?) link but I am sure anyone interested can find one

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Good job Uncle Sam was there to bail all your asses out in WWI and WWII or the world would be speaking German and Japanese!

It's a shame then that "Uncle Sam" was late for both those wars.

Yes and a shame that "Uncle Sam-ites" forget the "assistance" of others who saved their butts more than twice in ALL theatres of the war.

Sorry CS but it is late after a long shift and I can't find the relevant(?) link but I am sure anyone interested can find one

Well, Cliffy, you are wrong. Europe dilly dallied (or sashayed) as Hitler and the other fascists rose to power. They sought to bargain with Hitler instead of crush him. Eventually it was up to America to wade into Europe's war because failing to assist our weak allies would ultimately result in an invasion of our own country.

Of course, you non-Americans have not a word of appreciation to say in spite of the fact that America and only America is the reason you have been safe and free for the last 50 years. Meanwhile our own young men have been fighting and perishing in war after war. While you may disagree with some (or all) of these wars. Our goals today are the same goals that they were 50 years ago (when America, in many cases, literally handed your countries back to you). That is: Protect our freedom, throw off the yoke of all forms of fascism and pave the way for capitalism and democracy. These are our goals and in spite of the fact that war is a dirty business and sometimes we fight dirty (which you non American wretches love to point out to no end - in spite of the fact, by the way, that you have no reasonable plans to offer). Just keep this in mind: Without America you would be living under some form of fascist goverment.

And, furthermore, you non-Americans have never bailed America out of a single God damned thing of any import. Our economy leads the world in science, the arts, space travel, and medicine. This in spite of the fact that we represent a very small percentage of the world's population. America is the most dynamic and open country the world has ever known. Every day the world becomes more like America. Like it or not WE are the future. And instead of jumping up and down like spoiled little brats you need to pry a crowbar into your inbred heads and accept us for the warm, loving and open people that we are.

[AssKissinger]

Gai, I agree with what you're saying and as an American I'm really tired of listening to people bash my country.

That being said, I want to comment on WWII.

It is very foolish to make comments like we saved the day. MAYBE, they couldn't have done it without us but we couldn't have done it without them. I cannot express how oppossed I am to any comment that makes light of the British or Russian efforts in WWII. They gave their lives to win the war just like the Americans did and in greater numbers. They gave us our freedom and deserve full respect. When I see any Allied veteran of WWII my heart is so full of gratitude. How anybody could make light of what any of them did is beyond me. Do you know about how the Canadians fought so courageously in Italy? Do you how Americans and Australians were buried in the same mass graves in Okinawa? Not acknowledging what the rest of the world did and pretending we did it all makes Americans look like a bunch of morons.