40-hour workweek

[tone]

/rant begin

just read this about the 40 hour week

http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/bring_back_the_40_hour_work_week/

and have read some other similar theories more specific to my field

http://motionographer.com/2011/10/12/worklife-the-40-hour-work-week/

and thinking about this, and its worse in the states than many people here in japan would realize, but it makes me think of the mumbly, hushed tone meetings we have at my company, still mainly young computer dudes, that go on way too long and no one wants to be the person to say, "are we done here". And the single 30-somethings i work with who are literally giving up their lives to their company and almost NEVER have outside plans after work, and rarely do you hear of them doing anything interesting on the weekend, but frequently hear of them having come in to work. thats in addition to the 12 hour days they do almost every day.

i listened on here to what some people told me a while ago about this, and i'm just trying to rock my work well, but i almost always leave right at about 8 hours 3 days a week or so and maybe get stuck at 10-11 a few times a week...

but these articles make a good point about the efficiency that is lost to this everyday kill yourself attitude. and that "if everything is the priority, nothing is the priority"

my point is, if its bad in america, WTF is it here? all this society stuff here makes doing anything not expected of you in the workplace serious as cancer, like doing something wrong at a funeral.

/rant over

[Coligny]

Don't forget vacations. Back in the days were Bus service in Paris were done by horse carriage, the horses had to be sent for 1 month per year in the countryside on open fields for vacations. To relieve from the stress of the city environment.

By law...

[Samurai_Jerk]

I think the work culture is worse in the States in some ways. At least the Japanese get a lot more time off between paid leave, public holidays, an extended new year break and obon/summer vacation if they're lucky. If you're not senior management or a school teacher/college professor in the US, you get shit.

[Ganma]

[legion]

I think we might see a change soon. People with real abilities may become less tolerant of suits saying yes to anything at no notice.

[tone]

about that... i'm not so sure.

maybe if you have your own somewhat successful "mobage" title and you're a badass phone game programmer, but my coworkers also have skills that could make them money somewhere else.

to me theres something to do with erai hito / shoku nin type of dynamic of lower people being groveling little wimps and people in power feeling free to act like badass overlords.

back home, the clients are almost embarrassed by the fact they they do almost fuck all and we are the people with the vision and the skills, here the client is fucking god.

on the flip side, its their culture and i would get roasted in my home culture for speaking anything other than impressed type of feelings about the holy wonderful foreign culture that gave us soy sauce in a tiny packets and anime, not to mention 30 guys jizzing on a girls face

just kidding there, but it its like the allegory of the cave. i can barely talk about my experiences here with folks back home. its like i come off racist, when i know its not a genetic thing or ethnic thing, its a culturally galapagos thing, plus maybe centuries of feudal rule causing people to not want to stick their balls out - and girls surviving by acting subserviant and cute - i just threw that in, but on that note, i have some ridiculously unskilled female coworkers. one literally counts change all day long and goes around asking different things like would we prefer rafting or parasailing for the next sports tai kai, and could she have 1500 yen for the next company trip (fucking in 6 months) - i said, i'll just settle up if i decide to go. the rest of the time she sits there putting zippo fluid in her lighter, then smoking a few cigs, then calling it a day. i guess she's the accountant or something, she'll make a few calls a day about what seem to be the electric bill. she comes in at 2. tuesdays and thurdsays. the days we have company meals... she spends most of her time in the kitchen with the other girl employee who makes the company meals, then stays in the kitchen area and watches us eat, all of us at diff times over the course of maybe 3-4 hours. so basically all day tues and thurs, she bothers and fusses with making us food, and gets paid for that. of course she looks semi decent and talks in a childs voice to the bosses (maybe they also like AKB48). i say lets just get catering and get these idiots out of the way of trying to get work done.

its like my fellow employees like having this mini-family moon colony style work atmosphere, where we all work so much, all we see are each other.

anyway... i'm homesick. ready to be done, but gotta wait out the fam sittuation with the wife caring for her dad. could be worse, but sometimes the work culture just slays me

i see on skype at 2 am a couple coworkers just signed off and probably called it a day. again, back home all people want to hear about is sushi and fukushima, not my white ramblings about non white people... that's racist!

[Yosh]

i see on skype at 2 am a couple coworkers just signed off and probably called it a day. again, back home all people want to hear about is sushi and fukushima, not my white ramblings about non white people... that's racist!

That's okay, a little racism never hurt anybody

[Doctor Stop]

my point is, if its bad in america, WTF is it here?

In Japan, working more than 40 hours a week is actually illegal, although there are special case exemptions.

[cstaylor]

In Japan, working more than 40 hours a week is actually illegal, although there are special case exemptions.

Toothless laws with zero enforcement mean diddly squat to Joe Salaryman.

[Doctor Stop]

Toothless laws with zero enforcement mean diddly squat to Joe Salaryman.

The laws have teeth, and would be enforced if Joe Salaryman cared enough to do more than diddly squat.

[Samurai_Jerk]

In Japan, working more than 40 hours a week is actually illegal, although there are special case exemptions.

My favorite exception is the one that allows employers to put in your contract that your base monthly pay is X and that includes an assumed Y hours of overtime a month.

[IparryU]

The laws have teeth, and would be enforced if Joe Salaryman cared enough to do more than diddly squat.

not convincing at all... if joe salaryman did something the clerk... who the fuck ever... would spend half the time sucking his teeth and crossing his arms before he says gaman.. ganbare.. gaman..

[Doctor Stop]

My favorite exception is the one that allows employers to put in your contract that your base monthly pay is X and that includes an assumed Y hours of overtime a month.

They of course can put that in your contract but it's not legally valid.

[Doctor Stop]

not convincing at all... if joe salaryman did something the clerk... who the fuck ever... would spend half the time sucking his teeth and crossing his arms before he says gaman.. ganbare.. gaman..

What clerk working where are you referring to?

[s4bzzz]

It's easy to sit at a computer for 10 hrs a day. The hard part is looking busy:D

[tone]

i would throw this out there. i think people are addicted to working long and hard here - for the purpose and societal role (seems big over here) that goes with that. i have a tiny sample size to back it up, but being the odd person that leaves early and does his own thing just seems beyond most of my coworkers

another weird thing at my workplace, for 3 fridays in a row we've had clients come to talk about work. not work thats shipping the next day, but planning. and they are here still at 10, 1030,11pm. when i leave, theyre still here.

i know the production industry has a little extra of that image, but it almost seems cultural - like people seem to like that purpose that theyre given by having to gaman. in the states, unless its a fire to put out, everyone's goal is to have a quick, smooth friday so we can go off and have a life, not having planning mtgs with clients starting at 930 or something ridiculous, with the client bringing the hordes of guys and girls that are all serious as cancer about everything and a lot of slow thoughtful sou desu nes.

also in my world - things get scheduled often with stupid quick turnarounds so everying has to burn hard to get through it - but again it seems to make people feel vital and important. just seems like an addiction to the act of being "busy" and being crunched and compromised is "normal" and trying to have a life is weird.

i just keep coming back to respecting peoples time, and planning well. and when everyone is down to commit suicide for work, the planning gets shitty and flabby.

let me see... whats something good about this experience, just to balance it out... getting friendly reminders by the OL girl every time someone puts a PET bottle in the wrong place (must be the PET bottle loving gaijin every time) or maybe its commuting through azabu and seeing some badass cars.

[Samurai_Jerk]

They of course can put that in your contract but it's not legally valid.

Unfortunately, you're incorrect. It is legal for certain types of positions. What they do is technically pay you a low base and then calculate the rest as overtime pay for an assumed (for example) 40 hours of overtime a month. I wish I could remember what this is called in Japanese.

[gaijinpunch]

i would throw this out there. i think people are addicted to working long and hard here

Long? Yes. Hard? Are you high?

I wish I could remember what this is called in Japanese.

I believe it's just called "any old job". Any job I've ever had is a simple yearly salary divided by 12 and given to me each month. There is a bonus (not bonasu) so it was exclusive of my salary, although small. My wife always got monthly pay. They never calculated hours unless you left early.

Having said all that, and having plenty of years experience in seeing what it takes to make a business run, I'm not against straight salaries with no overtime pay as long as there is some type of bonus at the end of each half or at least year to offset this.

Times are tough and the economy is shit. I for one do a fuck ton more work now than 2 years ago for less money. Just kind of the way it is. Maybe it's my gaman inside of me, but I'd rather my son not starve than find out. I like my job as well, and not just b/c it keeps me from my wife.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I found this PDF that explains why a lot of white collar employees don't get overtime pay in Japan.

I believe it's just called "any old job".

I've met plenty of Japanese people who do get overtime pay including those in white collar jobs.

Having said all that, and having plenty of years experience in seeing what it takes to make a business run, I'm not against straight salaries with no overtime pay as long as there is some type of bonus at the end of each half or at least year to offset this.

I would agree that overtime pay might not be a good thing depending on how it's implemented. I've heard from Japanese people who work at companies that do pay overtime that it can encourage people to be inefficient and fuck off all day so they can put in that extra time and take home more money. I have no idea if this is typical but it wouldn't surprise me if it is. I don't think a bonus should be linked to overtime though. It should be linked to results.

Times are tough and the economy is shit. I for one do a fuck ton more work now than 2 years ago for less money. Just kind of the way it is. Maybe it's my gaman inside of me, but I'd rather my son not starve than find out. I like my job as well, and not just b/c it keeps me from my wife

I've never seen one study that backs up the idea that expecting people to work overtime on a regular basis is a plus for a business. Attitudes like yours are the problem because they're based on gut feeling and anecdotal evidence from people who've never experience anything different and not objective analysis.

[cstaylor]

I've met plenty of Japanese people who do get overtime pay including those in white collar jobs.

My employees get scheduled overtime.

I've heard from Japanese people who work at companies that do pay overtime that it can encourage people to be inefficient and fuck off all day so they can put in that extra time and take home more money.

It's true. Every new employee I hire goes through this phase for the first couple of months, trying to look busy, not going home before me, etc...

I tell them during the interview, when I need them to work overtime, I will ask them a few days before, and only in the most desperate situations.

I've had one employee that was constantly putting in 30+ hours of overtime a month. I let that go two pay periods, then I called a meeting with him along with his direct supervisor. I asked for a thorough accounting of what he was doing during those hours. Not receiving a satisfactory answer, I then stated I would pay for no overtime not requested by his supervisor. 30+ down to 3 with an eventual goal of 0.

I've never seen one study that backs up the idea that expecting people to work overtime on a regular basis is a plus for a business. Attitudes like yours are the problem because they're based on gut feeling and anecdotal evidence from people who've never experience anything different and not objective analysis.

I think gaijinpunch is self-employed? If so, I understand the feeling. You're both right, but it takes a while for a new business to settle; until then, as the new owner you're wearing 16 different hats, trying to manage email, website, phone, time tracking, payroll, insurance payments, etc... a real PITA.

[gaijinpunch]

I don't think a bonus should be linked to overtime though. It should be linked to results.

Indeed. That's what I was getting at... I just inferred it. All the time in the world doesn't mean shit if you fuck up.

It will never happen, but companies should just have their profits disclosed to employees, and say, "if we make this, the bonus pool is this, each of you will be get X as a bonus". It's all on the up and up, it's contractual, case closed. Problem is it's really easy to hide profits.

I've never seen one study that backs up the idea that expecting people to work overtime on a regular basis is a plus for a business. Attitudes like yours are the problem because they're based on gut feeling and anecdotal evidence from people who've never experience anything different and not objective analysis.

Whoa, Bessie. Don't jump the gun. I'm not saying employers should expect people to work overtime, and definitely not without compensation. I'm just saying for me, it has worked out, but I know my bosses aren't going to fuck me at the end of the year. My bonus is in correlation w/ the bottom line, and always has been. As such, I don't mind putting in the hours. At some point, I hope my work load decreases, but until then, I'm going to do what I have to do to keep a roof over my head and food in my kids mouth, and I'm not going to bitch about it b/c there's a line of people that would blow a midget to have my job.

On that note, I'm not expected to work overtime. I need to be available for the majority of the day which is less than 40 hours assuming I take my lunches. Beyond that, I'm only expected to get my shit done. If I do it in the time I'm expected to be available, I'm gold. Problem is, we're backed up, and the more I work now, the more dough we make. Endaka + shit economy = I need the dough.

I know basically nobody else is in that situation. I don't know what the correct answer is, but I do know that playing Freecell, smoking cigarettes, and sucking teeth for half the day is flat out retarded.

I think gaijinpunch is self-employed? If so, I understand the feeling. You're both right, but it takes a while for a new business to settle; until then, as the new owner you're wearing 16 different hats, trying to manage email, website, phone, time tracking, payroll, insurance payments, etc... a real PITA

No. I work for a small hedge fund. While it's a team effort, each person is kind of their own boss. Of course we have the boss that pays us, but nobody punching us in the cock w/ deadlines other than the users. Honestly, we don't really keep hours, or even vacations. Results speak volumes. I guess I can take 20 days like we could when we all were employed by the bank, but it never really comes up. Again, everyone knows what they need to do to keep the ship from sinking. In a way, it is the essence of the salaryman, where each person is an important cogwheel. The only difference is that it's not total bullshit, there is no dress code, we can drink at work, and nobody gives a fuck if you sit around for 20 extra hours to save face.

[legion]

Toothless laws with zero enforcement mean diddly squat to Joe Salaryman.

I went to see a lawyer about unpaid overtime and some other things the other week, just to get the law straight in my head before my yearly evaluation. Her advice was more or less "suck it up". There might be laws in place, but here you are not competing against better people, just people who will work 3 extra hours for 30% less, and a whole business culture of deliberate inefficiency.

However I do think skilled workers need to start kicking back, just to make people understand how much time they squander on trivial stuff. It isn't just a Japanese issue, companies are infested with micro managing micro brains, people who generate pointless tasks just to create the appearance of activity. These tasks always involve someone else actually doing some real work.

The first step along the way is to implant the idea that attending a meeting is not work, attending a meeting is what you do before you do some real work. Of course you end up in the assign the task game, you can be sure that the person most adept at assigning tasks to others will be the person least likely to complete a task themselves.

However, a meeting held by people who do real work will be kept as short as possible because every minute spent in a meeting is one more minute you could be using to complete whatever task needs doing, which is the only thing between you and getting home in time to read "The Enormous Turnip" to your kids.

[Doctor Stop]

Unfortunately, you're incorrect. It is legal for certain types of positions. What they do is technically pay you a low base and then calculate the rest as overtime pay for an assumed (for example) 40 hours of overtime a month. I wish I could remember what this is called in Japanese.

Unfortunately, I'm right. I'm of course willing to be proven wrong. If you can't think of the Japanese term, please give an detail example of what you mean because what you've written doesn't make sense to me.

We both agree that some people do get screwed by being coerced into working unpaid overtime, right?

[Samurai_Jerk]