JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

[Coligny]

Small battery fire in an empty plane while at the airport...

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/07/trave ... ?hpt=hp_t2


The plane was delivered in December... so it managed to fly for at least a month without breaking down... not too bad for an amurikun plane...

[Tsuru]

There is a rumour flying around United has grounded their fleet of 3 aircraft.

The problems with the UA 787 at New Orleans about a month ago prompted me to study the aircraft's extensive use of electrics a bit, and suffice to say it has put me off flying on the 787 for a while.

On the 787, high-powered AC electrics are used to replace things like hydraulic brakes and the bleed air in the air cycle machines of the air conditioning systems. It needs so much electrical power, some of the components in the aft EE bay have to be liquid cooled to handle the total of 1450kVA electrical power of all the engine/APU driven generators. This, combined with my experience so far with high-powered electro-mechanical systems used in some of our sims and the inability of the manufacturer to trace the problems we have been having with the drive units (explosive arcing followed by catastrofic failure for no apparent reason, and the manufacturer is of course pointing fingers at our infrastructure) have put me off flying on the 787 at least until the exact cause of these problems is known and resolved.

I had my doubts about the 787's CFRP construction before, in particular its crash-worthiness and the way it behaves when it catches fire. The toxic fume problem has been engineered out of aircraft interior materials for decades, and here comes Mr. Boeing with a plastic aircraft. Great. And now the state-of-the-art electrical systems are proving to have particularly annoying teething problems involving smoke and fire.

As brilliant as it is as a piece of engineering and aerodynamic design, it seems to me the 787 headache for Boeing is not over yet. It pains me to say this, but as thrilled as I was to be on the A380 before, I don't think I will be flying on the 787 anytime soon. To think this aircraft is still ETOPS-180 certified and flying passengers over thousands of miles of empty ocean is worrying to me to say the least.

[Coligny]

Great. And now the state-of-the-art electrical systems are proving to have particularly annoying teething problems involving smoke and fire.

You know a lot of babies that can kill 300 people because of teething problems ? your life is definately more interesting than mine...

As brilliant as it is as a piece of engineering and aerodynamic design, it seems to me the 787 headache for Boeing is not over yet. It pains me to say this, but as thrilled as I was to be on the A380 before, I don't think I will be flying on the 787 anytime soon. To think this aircraft is still ETOPS-180 certified and flying passengers over thousands of miles of empty ocean is worrying to me to say the least.

No shit the bird is still certified... he got his own "retarded engineering" exemption

[Tsuru]

Great. And now the state-of-the-art electrical systems are proving to have particularly annoying teething problems involving smoke and fire.

You know a lot of babies that can kill 300 people because of teething problems ? your life is definately more interesting than mine...

As brilliant as it is as a piece of engineering and aerodynamic design, it seems to me the 787 headache for Boeing is not over yet. It pains me to say this, but as thrilled as I was to be on the A380 before, I don't think I will be flying on the 787 anytime soon. To think this aircraft is still ETOPS-180 certified and flying passengers over thousands of miles of empty ocean is worrying to me to say the least.

No shit the bird is still certified... he got his own "retarded engineering" exemption

The WSJ is saying the JAL incident at Boston is likely to have consequences for the 787's ETOPS certification. I'm sure the Li-ion batteries present some weight saving over the usual Nicad type used for APU and normal aircraft batteries, but these things have no place on a long-range aircraft. I'm sure the crews of UPS006 and Asiana 991 would agree with that.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 67836.html

This is a pic from the aft EE bay of the JAL aircraft that caught fire today, courtesy of the NTSB:



The boxes of the type on the top left wth the connectors on the bottom scare the shit out of me even when they're not on an aircraft 37000+ feet up. The thing that sets high-powered electrics apart from hydraulics or mechanical systems is that they go from 0 to destroyed without any clues or precursors like leaks or noises. Troubleshooting this type of stuff is literally like chasing ghosts.

[Coligny]

That shit is not even funny anymore:

Japan Airlines 787 Dreamliner involved in incident at Boston Logan airport. This is not a repeat from yesterday. Honestly. Not even the same plane

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 67836.html

[Coligny]

I'm sure the Li-ion batteries present some weight saving over the usual Nicad type used for APU and normal aircraft batteries, but these things have no place on a long-range aircraft. I'm sure the crews of UPS006 and Asiana 991 would agree with that.

Just wait few years...

Nissan leafs are a disaster waiting to happen...

[Tsuru]

In fairness, an AD has already been issued a while ago regarding the fuel leak issue:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... -24-07.pdf

Regarding Li-ion batteries: A car is easy, you just stop by the side of the road, get out and watch the fireworks. In a plane its more a case of: get on the ground in 15 minutes or you're almost certainly dead. That's not an exaggeration, by the way: this is the accepted reality pilots are taught when it comes to inflight fires. And if you think 15 minutes is a lot of time, consider this: even when you throw the anchor out at the cruise altitudes these planes fly at, it takes at least 10 minutes just to get to sea level in a completely balls-out high-speed descent. That does not leave a lot of time to look for a suitable landing spot.

[matsuki]

burn! burn! burn! (of course on the ground with no passengers)

[Coligny]

In fairness, an AD has already been issued a while ago regarding the fuel leak issue:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... -24-07.pdf

Regarding Li-ion batteries: A car is easy, you just stop by the side of the road, get out and watch the fireworks. In a plane its more a case of: get on the ground in 15 minutes or you're almost certainly dead. That's not an exaggeration, by the way: this is the accepted reality pilots are taught when it comes to inflight fires. And if you think 15 minutes is a lot of time, consider this: even when you throw the anchor out at the cruise altitudes these planes fly at, it takes at least 10 minutes just to get to sea level in a completely balls-out high-speed descent. That does not leave a lot of time to look for a suitable landing spot.

Sure but, you consider only the risk while in use... You don't sleep with a 787 parked in your garage... Meanwhile... that's where your leaf sit and charge... plus... despite the actual commercial flop...
There's much more leafs in the streets than 787 in the sky...

[matsuki]

Leafs = Battery explosives on wheels?

BTW....

Shares of Japan's GS Yuasa Corp , which makes batteries for Boeing Co's new 787 Dreamliner, fell sharply for a second day on Wednesday after a fire aboard a Japan Airlines aircraft earlier this week.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/ ... LH20130109

[Russell]

OK guys, enough.

I'll fly to the U.S. in a couple of weeks by JAL.

Hope they sort it out by then...

[Coligny]

OK guys, enough.

I'll fly to the U.S. in a couple of weeks by JAL.

Hope they sort it out by then...

Just in case...

Can I have your stuff if (...) ?

[Russell]

OK guys, enough.

I'll fly to the U.S. in a couple of weeks by JAL.

Hope they sort it out by then...

Just in case...

Can I have your stuff if (...) ?

You want the Dutch wives?!?

[Coligny]

http://m.nbcnews.com/business/boeing-78 ... -1B7906402

three misshaps in three days...

pretty sure the guys at boeing can't wait for the weekend break...

[yanpa]

You mean waiting for whatever will break at the weekend?

Still, at least they didn't design it with square windows

[Coligny]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-01-1 ... -woes.html

and todays fuck up of the 787 include cracked windshield and oil leak...

i remember that last november mom and dad where supposed to fly to hokkaido buttheplanehad to return to an airport due to a cracked window... i'll bet ya it was a boing screamliner...

[Coligny]

And to finish a really shitty week at boeing headquarter:

"Dreamliner plane review ordered by US regulators"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20988117


(review will certainly take from 5 to 10 years and yield "no significant reason to deem the plane unsafe"... no matter how many will turn into a flying death oven during that timespan...)

Won't sumbody think of the shareholderz !!!!111!!!!! omg wtf bbq...

[Tsuru]

In my own experience the FAA are not to be trifled with.... I am confident that this review will be thorough and objective, even if it means delivering Boeing its own head on a platter.

On another note, I was finally able to visit the JAL123 exhibit at Haneda when I was in country two months ago, and was allowed to take my time to examine the pieces of wreckage on my own. I was there at the same time as a group of new JAL employees from all walks of life in the organisation, not just technical. The attitude JAL appeared to take toward this kind of thing at the time was impressive even by Northwestern-European standards, so I am hopeful capital investment is not going to have the upper hand and common sense will prevail. UAL at least is pushing back deliveries of new 787s while this is going on, so maybe we can expect some news of JAL/ANA making some changes to the way they use their 787s until the FAA completes its review of the 787 program.

[Coligny]

Don't know much aboot the FAA intimately... but it's those guys that made an exception on the fuel tank safety rules from 3 redundant level to "fuck you, crash and burn" for the 787 ? right ?

So...i'm sort of... not expecting much...

no matter how honest and dedicated are the small guys on the field... it just take one rotten corporate whore with a little higher paygrade to make it all worthless...

[Taro Toporific]

Breaking news--Wednesday Jan 16th, 11am, Japan...

DREAMLINER DOWN (again)!


Dreamliner makes emergency landing due to battery
10:39a.m. January 16, 2013
TOKYO (AP) -- An All Nippon Airways flight made an emergency landing at a Japanese airport after a cockpit message showed battery problems, in the latest trouble for the Boeing 787 "Dreamliner."
ANA spokesman Takuya Taniguchi said Wednesday that the flight to Tokyo from Ube in western Japan...more...

[Coligny]

Just when i was going to post a 5 days without incident notice...

Damn youze Taro...

I think we are now reaching the point where avoiding any travel by 787 could be a good idea... (at least until they fix these shit....)

[matsuki]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/ ... 2csqr.html

ehehe, fuck you ANA!

[Harhar]

I think that is probably a good idea. There are a number of pilots on one of the other boards i frequent, and they all seem to have some concerns.

[Coligny]

Let say that avoiding a plane after an accident is overreacting...

Not avoiding a plane after a week full of daily incident some of which could have been fatal (battery fire being one of them) is recklessness... Plus I'm pretty sure the insurance companies will get their panties in a twist if they start having to pay life insurance claims if one of the birds finally fall from the sky...

I somehow don't see this having the same happy ending as with the De Havilland Comet... The early problem were due to the fact that they were going into unknown territory...

For the 787... There is nothing really new... Electric stuff, composite, computers and shit... all this have been used elsewhere for ages, with known drawbacks... And it's not new drawbacks they are facing... It' just the old one that they sort of claimed to have factored in... Look like arrogance sourced engineering failures... Exactly like the RQ1 Predator drone...

600px-081131-F-7734Q-001.jpg

Just look at it and guess what is by far the biggest reason of craft loss/destruction
If you answered "tail strike" you are smarter than the people at General Atomics...

LiPo(*) battery catching fire... WHO KNEW... aside... every model maker on this planet who had to deal with LiPo...



(*) not sure if they are LiPo here, ask Tsuru, but I didn't see much Lead Acid battery catching fires... a shortcut starting a fire, yes, but not the battery itself being the source of the flames...

[Harhar]

I think ANA and JAL will find these early generation frames will have all kinds of teething problems that will get engineering bandages over time that will cost them some serious down time and skrilla. I did read on my other forum from one guy that finances these plane purchases that his firm won't touch a 787 build date before mid-2014.

[yanpa]

Early adopter = sucker willing to trade teething pains for prestige.

[Harhar]

Early adopter = sucker willing to trade teething pains for prestige.

Agree. I also thought it made little sense when I saw the first purchases given the distance between wash state where the engineers and manufacturing are located and Japan.

I will keep flying to Japan on dumpy old 767 and 777 United planes with cranky service staff. Not sure if ANA operates a 787 out of Dulles anyways.

[matsuki]

I'm still waiting to see how many of the problems can be sourced to Japanese supplied components...

[Harhar]

Maybe the actual batteries? The analog stuff is probably all 'merican like analog devices or some such. Fuel takes are all Boeing I would think.

[Yokohammer]

They were saying on the news yesterday that the 787 is about 35% made in Japan.