J-Nationalism on the rise

[matsuki]

Since the topic keeps coming up in other threads, I thought we might as well start a new one with a focus just on the current trend in nationalism.

I don't think the kimono/yukata tradition in decline from what I've seen. If anything they're making a comeback along with tendencies towards nationalism that is a throwback to the one that saw Japanese leaders turn the country into a military state, but is instead glamorised as the good old days that have to be 'restored'.

I'm hearing a lot of younger people 20s to mid 30s expressing support for Ishihara's party and wacky ideas that the tea ceremony should be compulsory for all girls at school etc. Kimono and yukata wearing are part of this even though interest in traditional dress is also a positive reflection of their interest in Japanese traditions per se. I was interested to see propaganda posters in various places including shrines where it's proclaimed how lucky/good it is to be Japanese. There is no context such as in some other countries where these campaigns are used to tell the population that it's a good idea to help countries that don't have their fortunate circumstances.

I'm hearing the same shit and can't believe how ignorant most of the people agreeing with it are. Keep hearing a bunch of shit talk about the new S. Korea PM that is totally interchangeable with a description of Abe himself. Even had a good friend of mine go out of their way to mention they were certain "The US let Pearl Harbor happen! They knew it was coming and they let it happen!" before going on a tirade about how "too much Japanese money goes to Korea where the Japanese flag is so often burned, stepped on, and still more apologies are demanded." I also can't believe how many taxis I'm seeing lately with nationalistic stickers and shit on them. The best are the ones that also have Engrish stickers like "Japan Thank you!" Almost as ironic as the uyoku hummer I saw last week.

[kurogane]

I'm hearing the same shit and can't believe how ignorant most of the people agreeing with it are.

Just to clarify, the people agreeing with nationalist sentiments, or people agreeing that those sentiments seem to be on the rise again????

[matsuki]

I'm hearing the same shit and can't believe how ignorant most of the people agreeing with it are.

Just to clarify, the people agreeing with nationalist sentiments, or people agreeing that those sentiments seem to be on the rise again????

I'm talking about the J-d00ds that are talking about how bad China/Korea are while talking up Abe...but don't understand why any Australian might dislike them. "But I Like Aussi beef...and Japan never had any conflict with Australia!"

[J.A.F.O]

I kinda believe we had some advanced knowledge of Pearl Harbor. Maybe not to the extent of popular conspiracy theory.

From National Geographic:

The Japanese had begun to use machines to encipher their communications in the late 1930s. Led by U.S. Army cryptologist William F. Friedman, U. S. code breakers in 1940 were able to build an analog machine that could read the Japanese diplomatic cipher, which the code breakers named Purple.

The Purple breakthrough helped U.S. officials in their negotiations with the special Japanese envoys sent to Washington, D.C., in late November 1941. Of course, the diplomatic messages said nothing about the planned attack on Pearl Harbor.

Meanwhile, U.S. Navy code breakers were trying to penetrate Japanese naval codes. Some success was achieved before Pearl Harbor, but useful decryptions were not achieved against some naval codes until the spring of 1942. Some Japanese naval codes were never broken during the war.

I'm familiar with CI/Humint and when there is crucial intel like this commands tend to allow minor destruction to happen in order not to tip their hand. If the Japanese would have discovered we cracked their ciphering techniques then they would have changed them and the U.S. would have back to square one. I just don't think that the U.S. thought Pearl Harbor was going to be as bad as it was.

What little I do know about PH is that FDR fired his first Secretary of the Navy when he refused to park so much of the fleet in PH before the bombing. And the old clunkers of the fleet at that. SOOO anyways. I don't care too much one way or another mostly because it was so much before my time. If the Japanese wanna be nationalistic that's fine and all but don't cry about it later when someone bombs the hell out of you.

Live by the sword and all that.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Almost as ironic as the uyoku hummer I saw last week.

How about the irony of the uyoku having close ties to the yakuza while going on and on about foreign criminals and illegal Asian immigrants?

Japan never had any conflict with Australia!

Has someone actually said this to you!?

[matsuki]

What little I do know about PH is that FDR fired his first Secretary of the Navy when he refused to park so much of the fleet in PH before the bombing. And the old clunkers of the fleet at that. SOOO anyways. I don't care too much one way or another mostly because it was so much before my time. If the Japanese wanna be nationalistic that's fine and all but don't cry about it later when someone bombs the hell out of you.

Live by the sword and all that.

While plausible....you hit on my view of it all at the end there. You reap what you sow. Saying "but America knew!!" doesn't excuse anything Japan did.

Almost as ironic as the uyoku hummer I saw last week.

How about the irony of the uyoku having close ties to the yakuza while going on and on about foreign criminals and illegal Asian immigrants?

Yep....and the Japanese "logic" circle is complete.

Japan never had any conflict with Australia!

Has someone actually said this to you!?

Yes, even worse was one of the exchange students visiting my friend's father in AUS during ANZAC day "Why do they call me JAP?! Japan never had any problems with Australia?!" He got a quick history lesson before saying "we never learned about any that at school in Japan!"

[Coligny]

by J.A.F.O » 26 Nov 2013 13:51

I kinda believe we had some advanced knowledge of Pearl Harbor. Maybe not to the extent of popular conspiracy theory.

The reverse tree intelligence fallacy.

Look from the bottom of the tree to the top (now to the future), all the ways/branches seems possible

Look from the top of the branch where you sit to the bottom (looking back at the now past) and only one way was taken. Now saying that only that particular way was possible since it's the one that was taken is a spot below conspiracy theory. It's also a total negation of randomness in the universe.

Like for 9/11 the fact that it happened and there was a memo aboot something like this might happens means it was let happened on purpose. Or more likely, the US being paranoid enough, this particular memo on that day was one out of 300 others predicting the death of america before the week end. When you piss of enough people while at the same time being a total paranoid, you end up seeing everything as a threat. Meaning that when the signs of a real threat surfaces they are totally buried in a sea of background noises and made up threats...

[kurogane]

The Brits and the Americans definitely goaded the Japanese into war via foreign policy maneuvers, but the idea that Pearl Harbour was a purposeful trap seems far fetched. I also thoroughly enjoy the logic of accusing the US of setting a trap for the Japanese by knowingly sacrificing large parts of the Pacific Fleet. It plays into the whole victim mentality so beautifully it's maddeningly enjoyable to see in action.

Maybe it's the whole rationalist cultural background of where we come from, but even the Pope or Dick Cheney would pale at the idea of deploying the shamefaced hypocrisy intelligent and thoughtful Japanese do without a hint of reflection. It's also fantastic exercise for the facial muscles.

[matsuki]

I also thoroughly enjoy the logic of accusing the US of setting a trap for the Japanese by knowingly sacrificing large parts of the Pacific Fleet. It plays into the whole victim mentality so beautifully it's maddeningly enjoyable to see in action.

I look forward to the day the taxis are rocking bumper stickers that say "Japan never loses, it either wins or is the victim."

[Yokohammer]

The Brits and the Americans definitely goaded the Japanese into war via foreign policy maneuvers, but the idea that Pearl Harbour was a purposeful trap seems far fetched.

Just to clarify, you're not saying that Britain and the US deliberately/intentionally provoked Japan to attack, are you?

[kurogane]

Of all the aggravating things they do I find enjoyable, I think that takes the cake. I still take sadistic pleasure in referring to V-J Day as Haisen-kinenbi. Oh, truly is the simple pleasures that we can thank the Buddha for.

OTOH, the reason there are Australians that still call Japanese the 3 letter J word is because they're that sort of Australian. NZers also, obviously. No need to try and defend that sad state of affairs. It's like having your own Morlocks that almost share the same language. Which makes the Good Australians like Eloi, or WTF they were called. They had hot chicks, the Eloi.

[J.A.F.O]

by J.A.F.O » 26 Nov 2013 13:51

I kinda believe we had some advanced knowledge of Pearl Harbor. Maybe not to the extent of popular conspiracy theory.

The reverse tree intelligence fallacy.

Look from the bottom of the tree to the top (now to the future), all the ways/branches seems possible

Look from the top of the branch where you sit to the bottom (looking back at the now past) and only one way was taken. Now saying that only that particular way was possible since it's the one that was taken is a spot below conspiracy theory. It's also a total negation of randomness in the universe.

Like for 9/11 the fact that it happened and there was a memo aboot something like this might happens means it was let happened on purpose. Or more likely, the US being paranoid enough, this particular memo on that day was one out of 300 others predicting the death of america before the week end. When you piss of enough people while at the same time being a total paranoid, you end up seeing everything as a threat. Meaning that when the signs of a real threat surfaces they are totally buried in a sea of background noises and made up threats...

I understand what your getting at and I agree. As stated I kinda believe in the fore knowledge to a degree. Not because of reverse engineering chains of events or theories, but because I've been in intel battalions and know that this is how they operate.

Yale Professor, Dr. Steven Novella goes through extensively in his critical thinking course about all the different logical fallacies we use in our deceptive minds. Just because faulty logic is used to illustrate a point doesn't necessarily make the point any less true. Just the method by which it is debated.

Professor Madsen Pirie of Hillsdale wrote a pretty good book on the use and abuse of logic if your interested.

[kurogane]

The Brits and the Americans definitely goaded the Japanese into war via foreign policy maneuvers, but the idea that Pearl Harbour was a purposeful trap seems far fetched.

Just to clarify, you're not saying that Britain and the US deliberately/intentionally provoked Japan to attack, are you?

Well, via their foreign policy maneuvers they ploughed, graded and paved the road to war (with the help of Japanese intransigence, of course), but not deliberate or intentional in the sense that the conspiracies we've touched on suggest. Let us not forget the oil embargo. I would argue that typical Anglo-American bigotry and arrogance resulted in war, but not that they 'tried to start one'. If anything, contemporary reports and accounts suggested they thought the Japanese would back down, as befit a little yellow people.

As a note, the idea of the US or UK telling the Japanese not to engage in agressive imperialism would be shocking comedy had it not been so devastating all around. I mean, we are talking about 2 of the most murderous nations in history here.

[Yokohammer]

The Brits and the Americans definitely goaded the Japanese into war via foreign policy maneuvers, but the idea that Pearl Harbour was a purposeful trap seems far fetched.

Just to clarify, you're not saying that Britain and the US deliberately/intentionally provoked Japan to attack, are you?

Well, via their foreign policy maneuvers they ploughed, graded and paved the road to war (with the help of Japanese intransigence, of course), but not deliberate or intentional in the sense that the conspiracies we've touched on suggest. Let us not forget the oil embargo. I would argue that typical Anglo-American bigotry and arrogance resulted in war, but not that they 'tried to start one'. If anything, contemporary reports and accounts suggested they thought the Japanese would back down, as befit a little yellow people.

OK, that's sort of how I see it as well. I think it's a pretty good guess that the embargoes on aviation supplies and eventually oil were intended to prevent further aggression, especially seen in the context of the negotiations that were going on at the time, but that the allies simply underestimated Japan's "determination" (I use the word loosely) to secure resources for further expansion.

As a note, the idea of the US or UK telling the Japanese not to engage in agressive imperialism would be shocking comedy had it not been so devastating all around. I mean, we are talking about 2 of the most murderous nations in history here.

No contest here, just trying to get the facts straight.

[J.A.F.O]

I mean, we are talking about 2 of the most murderous nations in history here.

Rome and the Catholic Church?

[kurogane]

I mean, we are talking about 2 of the most murderous nations in history here.

Rome and the Catholic Church?

Well, now we're up to 4. Anybody ready to play their Stalin card???? It's not like there's a limit on membership, after all.

And apologies to all for the kneejerk deployment of that undergraduate Intro to Postcolonial Theory level hysteria


YokoHammer,

Yeah, we seem to agree. Most accounts suggest both the UK and the US seriously underestimated the determination and capabilities of the Japanese forces, much of which was based on attitude rather than hard intelligence. And "by their foreign policies", I mean it as a retrospective analysis or conclusion, not as a notion of previous or strategic intent. The US certainly knew 'something' was going to happen, but the ferocity of the juggernaut was a complete surprise from what I have read and been taught.

[matsuki]

Japanese intransigence

they thought the Japanese would back down,

the allies simply underestimated Japan's "determination" (I use the word loosely) .

Glad to see things haven't changed much...

[J.A.F.O]

While plausible....you hit on my view of it all at the end there. You reap what you sow. Saying "but America knew!!" doesn't excuse anything Japan did.

Right on.

[matsuki]

While plausible....you hit on my view of it all at the end there. You reap what you sow. Saying "but America knew!!" doesn't excuse anything Japan did.

Right on.

...and for the record, by that, I don't mean Japan deserved the be blasted with the atomic bombs. Hell, the Japanese had their own atomic bomb program and, knowing how difficult constructing one was, didn't even believe what had happened at first...let alone that the US might have more than one. (Pretty out there if you consider the third bomb was probably heading for Tokyo...)

[kurogane]

I still argue they should have blasted Sakurajima. That would have been a faultless tactic...................though that might just have given rise to earlier conspiracy theories about that Earthquake Machine the tinfoil hat people argue caused the Tohoku disaster.

And that is with the full benefit of hindsight, of course. It's pretty hard to fault Harry S. given the beliefs and attitudes of the time, not to mention the Japanese fanatacism. Plus, even the Americans didn't really fully grasp what they had at the time. Who could?

[Yokohammer]

... Plus, even the Americans didn't really fully grasp what they had at the time. Who could?

This, right here, is an important point that gets overlooked/ignored/swept under the rug when those accusations of "large-scale human experimentation" and other strains of moral indignation start getting thrown around.

[sarcasm]Human experimentation?! Who could even imagine such an evil thing!![/sarcasm]

The US military did a mighty fine job of irradiating their own troops during testing at White Sands. They really didn't have a full grasp of the consequences.

Once again, not condoning, just trying to get the facts straight.

[kurogane]

Yes, all well said. It all sort of plays into these common logical fallacies mentioned above.

Besides, the execution of the Pacific War was probably the last time the West really got it right. Is there any evidence of any significant war crimes or abuses by the Allies in the Pacific War? I know that prisoners were often 'not taken' or even shot as in the Clint Eastwood Iwo Jima movie, but I have pointed out in discussion that the continued unenslaved existence of the island race itself suggests a volcanic eruption of magnanimity in victory, but then I always end up having to buy my own beer again, which saddens and confuses me. Am I to be punished for seeking the truth, I ask!!?????

[J.A.F.O]

While plausible....you hit on my view of it all at the end there. You reap what you sow. Saying "but America knew!!" doesn't excuse anything Japan did.

Right on.

...and for the record, by that, I don't mean Japan deserved the be blasted with the atomic bombs. Hell, the Japanese had their own atomic bomb program and, knowing how difficult constructing one was, didn't even believe what had happened at first...let alone that the US might have more than one. (Pretty out there if you consider the third bomb was probably heading for Tokyo...)

Was just saying I agree with you. Not in a warmonger sense, more of a "I hear you, say on" sense

[matsuki]

While plausible....you hit on my view of it all at the end there. You reap what you sow. Saying "but America knew!!" doesn't excuse anything Japan did.

Right on.

...and for the record, by that, I don't mean Japan deserved the be blasted with the atomic bombs. Hell, the Japanese had their own atomic bomb program and, knowing how difficult constructing one was, didn't even believe what had happened at first...let alone that the US might have more than one. (Pretty out there if you consider the third bomb was probably heading for Tokyo...)

Was just saying I agree with you.

I know but after I reread what I wrote, I saw how that could be misinterpreted.

...and on that note, I agree with what Yoko and Kuro just wrote as well, different time, different culture, waaaaay less knowledge than we have now.

[kurogane]

. Saying "but America knew!!" doesn't excuse anything Japan did."

This has probably come up already, but where I drink in Kyoto, it does just that, up to and including culpability for the initial sneak attack. I don't get it or even try, and don't actually even enjoy that one (I find it rather dangerous, actually), but the looks of smug satisfaction on the faces of my drinking buddies suggest no other conclusion.

It could just be sandbox tit for tat, but to me it rings more sinister.

[matsuki]

. Saying "but America knew!!" doesn't excuse anything Japan did."

This has probably come up already, but where I drink in Kyoto, it does just that, up to and including culpability for the initial sneak attack. I don't get it or even try, and don't actually even enjoy that one (I find it rather dangerous, actually), but the looks of smug satisfaction on the faces of my drinking buddies suggest no other conclusion.

It could just be sandbox tit for tat, but to me it rings more sinister.

LOL, I should probably add "...except in the minds of Nationalistic Japanese who also think the Korean whor...err comfort women were nothing more than prosti...wait...gold diggers...yeah...who were out to exploit Japan."

[kurogane]

I do believe the shameless Uyoku media whore Sakurai NotNadeshiko said as much.

But the carte blanche absolution for all crimes could certainly extend that far. And these are fairly hard core lefty types, btw. I think it is simply my white face that causes the more egregious suspensions of logic. They don't seem to mind being reflective when it is only them, but no way they're going to take that shiite from a white guy. Which is a major factor in my frequent derision of calls for more immigration. As harsh as it sounds, that's like calling for advanced theoretical physics for the slow kids in Grade 3.

[matsuki]

I do believe the shameless Uyoku media whore Sakurai NotNadeshiko said as much.

But the carte blanche absolution for all crimes could certainly extend that far. And these are fairly hard core lefty types, btw. I think it is simply my white face that causes the more egregious suspensions of logic. They don't seem to mind being reflective when it is only them, but no way they're going to take that shiite from a white guy. Which is a major factor in my frequent derision of calls for more immigration. As harsh as it sounds, that's like calling for advanced theoretical physics for the slow kids in Grade 3.

Hahahaha sooo true....but on that note, there is the occasional, "I don't like FG but you're ok" followed by some reflection from the heart. (spoken in that quiet tone after they look around to make sure other Japanese aren't close enough to hear)

[J.A.F.O]

Or have you had this one happen? My little circle of friends tend to just forget I'm a FG altogether. I hear some pretty jacked up things here and there and after a sideways look from me they realize "oh yea your not one of us" then the inevitable "but you don't count"

[yanpa]

Of all the aggravating things they do I find enjoyable, I think that takes the cake. I still take sadistic pleasure in referring to V-J Day as Haisen-kinenbi.

Having lived a large part of my life in Germany, I find the difference in historical attitudes a continuing source of fascination. In German, "VE Day" is generally known as "Tag der Befreiung", aka "Liberation Day". And you can hardly go out of the house without tripping over some memorial to the Left-Handed Mildly-Autistic Lapsed Baptists or whoever.