"Why Are Japanese Homes Disposable?"

[Samurai_Jerk]

Why Are Japanese Homes Disposable?

In most countries, houses get more valuable over time. In Japan, a new buyer will often bulldoze the home. Why? That’s the question we try to answer in our latest Freakonomics Radio podcast, “Why Are Japanese Homes Disposable?”

[Wage Slave]

There is virtually no market for pre-owned homes in Japan

Wanna bet?

[Yokohammer]

There are a few WTFs in there that don't jibe with my own experience, includung the above. Gotta wonder where people get their info sometimes (especially people who are supposedly living in Japan). Part of the problem might be the assumption that Tokyo is representative of all Japan.

~ Tapatalking ~

[matsuki]

There is virtually no market for pre-owned homes in Japan

Wanna bet?

Especially ones that people died in

[matsuki]

Part of the problem might be the assumption that Tokyo is representative of all Japan.

Probably THIS....I have seen at least 20 homes in Nakano get bulldozed in the past 5 years. Oddly enough, I saw five get paved into parking lots....two replaced with apartment buildings....and the rest are empty lots with a bunch or ads and shit posted all over them. Progressssss

[IparryU]

good market right now to buy and rent out... very location specific though. i would personally buy some properties to rent out if I had the cash.

[matsuki]

Without quoting myself, the urban (myth?) is that the taxes on unused land are more than parking lots so they are turning the ruins into parking lots to avoid the higher taxes?


...and

TOWNSEND: The houses that are built today exceed the quality of just about any other country in the world, at least for timber buildings. So there’s really no reason that they should drop in value and be demolished.

[BigInJapan]

There is virtually no market for pre-owned homes in Japan

Wanna bet?

Especially ones that people died in

Case in point: Three years ago when we were looking to move down here to Kyushu, I scoured the real estate listings for months. I came across a house about 25 years old that had been renoed (paint, wallpaper, updated kitchen and bathroom, etc.), and I noticed that the asking price went down over a million yen in a month's time. The house looked familiar, so I went on the bit.sikkou.jp site (foreclosures) and found it listed there about six months earlier. In the photos it was in bad shape, and the minimum selling price was maybe 3 million yen. Obviously a real estate developer or construction company had bought and fixed it for a quick flip. I sent the realtor a mail asking for more photos, and also, questioned why there no trees in the yard as there were lots in the foreclosure pics.
The realtor came back with this, "Um, it's because the former owner hung himself from a tree in the yard".
Oh. That didn't phase me (no blood or anything inside the house to worry about), but for my other half, it was not even an option. I'm guessing the price kept dropping and it probably didn't get sold.

[matsuki]

There is virtually no market for pre-owned homes in Japan

Wanna bet?

Especially ones that people died in

Case in point: Three years ago when we were looking to move down here to Kyushu, I scoured the real estate listings for months. I came across a house about 25 years old that had been renoed (paint, wallpaper, updated kitchen and bathroom, etc.), and I noticed that the asking price went down over a million yen in a month's time. The house looked familiar, so I went on the bit.sikkou.jp site (foreclosures) and found it listed there about six months earlier. In the photos it was in bad shape, and the minimum selling price was maybe 3 million yen. Obviously a real estate developer or construction company had bought and fixed it for a quick flip. I sent the realtor a mail asking for more photos, and also, questioned why there no trees in the yard as there were lots in the foreclosure pics.
The realtor came back with this, "Um, it's because the former owner hung himself from a tree in the yard".
Oh. That didn't phase me (no blood or anything inside the house to worry about), but for my other half, it was not even an option. I'm guessing the price kept dropping and it probably didn't get sold.

Poor tree...died for being a tool against it's own will!!

I don't get the fear at all. people have died just about everywhere on this planet, why does it make a difference if they died during your lifetime? could be biased though...my entire home is surrounded by dead people, wife grew up "playing in the cemetery," not a fuck is given.

[Samurai_Jerk]

...and

TOWNSEND: The houses that are built today exceed the quality of just about any other country in the world, at least for timber buildings. So there’s really no reason that they should drop in value and be demolished.

Yeah, I rolled my eyes at that one too. That statement might make Taro's head explode. Although the way he qualified it with "at least for timber buildings" makes me wonder if he was talking about something very specific that could be true.

There is virtually no market for pre-owned homes in Japan

Wanna bet?

He probably means relative to other markets but that probably is a bit too much hyperbole.

[Yokohammer]

If you think about that "eeyew, somebody died there!" reaction it's pretty silly, especially in a city. Probably harder to find a patch of land where somebody hasn't died at some time in the past. But I guess recent deaths are higher on the "eeyew" scale, or something.

EDIT: looks like Choko beat me to this by a hair, so consider it a +1.

[Coligny]

Poor tree...died for being a tool against it's own will!!

I don't get the fear at all. people have died just about everywhere on this planet, why does it make a difference if they died during your lifetime? could be biased though...my entire home is surrounded by dead people, wife grew up "playing in the cemetery," not a fuck is given.

Well... Unless it's a cursed indiun cemetary, then shit gets real...

[Coligny]

There is virtually no market for pre-owned homes in Japan

Wanna bet?

Especially ones that people died in

Case in point: Three years ago when we were looking to move down here to Kyushu, I scoured the real estate listings for months. I came across a house about 25 years old that had been renoed (paint, wallpaper, updated kitchen and bathroom, etc.), and I noticed that the asking price went down over a million yen in a month's time. The house looked familiar, so I went on the bit.sikkou.jp site (foreclosures) and found it listed there about six months earlier. In the photos it was in bad shape, and the minimum selling price was maybe 3 million yen. Obviously a real estate developer or construction company had bought and fixed it for a quick flip. I sent the realtor a mail asking for more photos, and also, questioned why there no trees in the yard as there were lots in the foreclosure pics.
The realtor came back with this, "Um, it's because the former owner hung himself from a tree in the yard".
Oh. That didn't phase me (no blood or anything inside the house to worry about), but for my other half, it was not even an option. I'm guessing the price kept dropping and it probably didn't get sold.

You mean 30 miliun ? Right ?

[Samurai_Jerk]

If you think about that "eeyew, somebody died there!" reaction it's pretty silly, especially in a city. Probably harder to find a patch of land where somebody hasn't died at some time in the past. But I guess recent deaths are higher on the "eeyew" scale, or something.

EDIT: looks like Choko beat me to this by a hair, so consider it a +1.

It's doubly strange if you think about the fact that most people have no problem living in a home a family member has died in.

[Wage Slave]

There is virtually no market for pre-owned homes in Japan

Wanna bet?

Especially ones that people died in

Case in point: Three years ago when we were looking to move down here to Kyushu, I scoured the real estate listings for months. I came across a house about 25 years old that had been renoed (paint, wallpaper, updated kitchen and bathroom, etc.), and I noticed that the asking price went down over a million yen in a month's time. The house looked familiar, so I went on the bit.sikkou.jp site (foreclosures) and found it listed there about six months earlier. In the photos it was in bad shape, and the minimum selling price was maybe 3 million yen. Obviously a real estate developer or construction company had bought and fixed it for a quick flip. I sent the realtor a mail asking for more photos, and also, questioned why there no trees in the yard as there were lots in the foreclosure pics.
The realtor came back with this, "Um, it's because the former owner hung himself from a tree in the yard".
Oh. That didn't phase me (no blood or anything inside the house to worry about), but for my other half, it was not even an option. I'm guessing the price kept dropping and it probably didn't get sold.

You mean 30 miliun ? Right ?

Nah. Maybe three million sounds right especially if the location is less than great. A person I know recently bought a 10 year old house, no blight, in a good part of Sapporo for 7 million. He's spending another 8 on refurb and extension and will have a great property for 15.

30 million buys a lot of second hand house outside the really big cities.

[yanpa]

...and

TOWNSEND: The houses that are built today exceed the quality of just about any other country in the world, at least for timber buildings. So there’s really no reason that they should drop in value and be demolished.

Yeah, I rolled my eyes at that one too. That statement might make Taro's head explode. Although the way he qualified it with "at least for timber buildings" makes me wonder if he was talking about something very specific that could be true.

Some of the new builds we saw when looking for a place were certainly world-beating, if you prefix the word "world" with "third", and are comparing against the kind of place architecturally influenced by the "Informal Vernacular" school of building design utilizing material scavenged from the local environment. Most of them would probably be served with a "tear it down and start again" order in Europe north of the Mediterranean.

[kurogane]

Nah. Maybe three million sounds right especially if the location is less than great. A person I know recently bought a 10 year old house, no blight, in a good part of Sapporo for 7 million. He's spending another 8 on refurb and extension and will have a great property for 15.

30 million buys a lot of second hand house outside the really big cities.

30 million seems to buy rather nice liveable houses in parts of Tokyo, never mind some of the older mansions. I saw a small easily fixed up suburban/semi-rural place in that area for 170,000. IOW, 17,000 dollars. Pockets aside, Japanese real estate is way, way down. Price per square metre aside, that makes crappy Vancouver houses look like the Taj Mahal at minimum 650,000 CAD (cue Northern Peso jokes.......Choko??? )

Anyways, +7 on the idea that very many to most Japanese get a willies feeling at the idea of a used house. I would say that most that still do it hold their nose and take the plunge. They simply don't like that. Other people have lived there, ferchrissakes!!!!!!!!!! It's a Kulchural Thing.

[matsuki]

30 million seems to buy rather nice liveable houses in parts of Tokyo, never mind some of the older mansions. I saw a small easily fixed up suburban/semi-rural place in that area for 170,000. IOW, 17,000 dollars. Pockets aside, Japanese real estate is way, way down. Price per square metre aside, that makes crappy Vancouver houses look like the Taj Mahal at minimum 650,000 CAD (cue Northern Peso jokes.......Choko??? )

Dude, if I had the money, I'd own one of the islands up there. Maybe I should see if I can get one of the tribes to adopt me (and yeah, Canadian money....even Canadians call it "loonie" )

Anyways, +7 on the idea that very many to most Japanese get a willies feeling at the idea of a used house. I would say that most that still do it hold their nose and take the plunge. They simply don't like that. Other people have lived there, ferchrissakes!!!!!!!!!! It's a Kulchural Thing.

Was it like this pre bubble era? I honestly don't know but my guess is this behavior is yet another remnant trend of that period that gets written of as "cultural."

[kurogane]

Was it like this pre bubble era? I honestly don't know but my guess is this behavior is yet another remnant trend of that period that gets written of as "cultural."

I will go with yes, but perhaps not so pronounced due to financial parsimony and limits. The usual routine for moving into an existing house is family inheritance or succession, and each succeeding generation will renovate and update according to its needs.

At any rate, I am still going with very many to most Japanese have a mild willies reaction to the idea of living in a standing house. It's a Buddhist spirit/aura thing combined with their fear of ghosts and a general distaste for used shit. It's part of the reason so many perfectly serviceable homes are so cheap: it's the land that is the object of purchase. I would happily strip a standing house of the ratty straw carpet, put in some flooring from Komeri, strip any 70s/80s chintz and pastel plastic and sit around in my long johns farting ecstatically, all for about 40,000 bucks. Whadda deal. Keep in mind a cheap condo in Vancouver proper goes for 300,000 CAD minimum.

[dimwit]

Yep, I'd say renoviate it.

[matsuki]

Was it like this pre bubble era? I honestly don't know but my guess is this behavior is yet another remnant trend of that period that gets written of as "cultural."

I will go with yes, but perhaps not so pronounced due to financial parsimony and limits. The usual routine for moving into an existing house is family inheritance or succession, and each succeeding generation will renovate and update according to its needs.

At any rate, I am still going with very many to most Japanese have a mild willies reaction to the idea of living in a standing house.

Fair enough. The shit quality in both the house and some of the "renewal" work I've seen recently is reason enough to dread what's under the surface.

It's a Buddhist spirit/aura thing combined with their fear of ghosts and a general distaste for used shit.

I think you mean Shinto? (though they're pretty intertwined here)

Yep, I'd say renoviate it.

...with a bulldozer?

[dimwit]

...with a bulldozer?

Or rent it out to a Gaijin.

[kurogane]

Fair enough. The shit quality in both the house and some of the "renewal" work I've seen recently is reason enough to dread what's under the surface.

Yeah, a good point. There is probably some of that too.

I think you mean Shinto? (though they're pretty intertwined here)

Well, Shinto doesn't have much to say about the afterlife (it's why you marry Shinto but die Buddhist), but the animism thing is probably in there somewhere. It is all quite syncretic, as you say.

BTW, that hilarious delapidated building aside, I know of 6 to 7 rather old empty homes in my old neighbourhood in Kyoto that look brick shiithouseworthy sturdy, assuming there's no rot, and yet there they sit. Some of the pre-70s houses are bombproof; buildings seem to be the ones that are disposable, which is probably just as well.

[Wage Slave]

Mulling this over I recall six Japanese couples I know who have bought a house in the last 5 years. 3 were younger and 3 were older. The 3 younger ones all bought a new build on a new estate. The three older ones all bought a good quality, not too old, second hand house in an established, high quality area. The three older ones also got a bigger piece of land than the young ones. The average building plot was 220 to 240 square meters. It is now 170 to 180.

[matsuki]

BTW, that hilarious delapidated building aside, I know of 6 to 7 rather old empty homes in my old neighbourhood in Kyoto that look brick shiithouseworthy sturdy, assuming there's no rot, and yet there they sit. Some of the pre-70s houses are bombproof; buildings seem to be the ones that are disposable, which is probably just as well.

Many of them are apparently owned by jijis and babas who are saving them for a rainy sunny day...and then go batshit insane or die along with any ownership documentation.

[Russell]

Not completely on topic, but it somehow resonates.

I feel a bit sorry for the guy, to be honest.

[BigInJapan]

In the photos it was in bad shape, and the minimum selling price was maybe 3 million yen. Obviously a real estate developer or construction company had bought and fixed it for a quick flip.

You mean 30 miliun ? Right ?

Nope, I really meant three million yen. There are lots of foreclosed houses listed on sites like bit.sikkou.jp.
You can download PDFs of the official foreclosure data that is available at the local courthouse in each area.
Each property or house will have a minimum selling price (bid starting price), and sometimes they even sell for less than that (you can see in the sold properties lists). I have seen inaka properties as low as one million yen, obviously not in great shape though. The caveat is that you cannot go inside the house prior to purchase, and have to rely on low quality scans of printed photos (they do label cracks and water damage in the photos though).

[kurogane]

　I feel a bit sorry for the guy, to be honest.

I do too, but only because he's an obvious mental patient hanging on in such quiet desperation when he could probably be a proper human with proper care or even just good counselling. I've lived in rooms with only one more mat than that, but I used the weekly garbage service. It wasn't luxurious, but it was perfectly serviceable for a single male. An uncluttered 4 mat room can actually be quite comfortable and cozy, esp. in winter. That guy seems to be well-mannered and is probably intelligent, but he's also just a self-indulgent pig, though he probably isn't well enough to know it, which is why I also feel for him. He has chosen squalor. Yukkkkk

On a bright note, this sort of internet exposure is leading to important efforts by Japanese mental health experts to try and find useful therapies for this sort of hoarding activity, according to Mai Kyoto's own Dr. Frasier Crane. Apparently the therapy itself is rather simple, and the results quite encouraging.

BTW, any non-Tokyo-ites find the rent of 25,000 per month to be rather high for that? I suppose it does have a kitchen.

[Russell]

Nope, it doesn't have a kitchen. He uses a microwave in his room.

[yanpa]

BTW, any non-Tokyo-ites find the rent of 25,000 per month to be rather high for that? I suppose it does have a kitchen.

Didn't have time to do more than skip through the muted video, did they say where in Tokyo? 25,000 per month sounds about right, to get below that you'd need to descend into into the hell which is made of "shared houses" divided into oshiire-sized cubicles.

Nope, it doesn't have a kitchen. He uses a microwave in his room.

The Youtube caption says "キッチン付き", though I couldn't see one.