No idol worship please, I'm special

[wagyl]

Another one chiming in on the "Buddhism is a religion" issue.

The other day I was in a hotel with a bit of spare time waiting for the train and a copy of The Teachings of Buddha in the Gideon Bible drawer. It was an interesting read, and ticked a few boxes for me.

• Charismatic founder
• A long list of martyrs for the cause in the early followers
• Preservation of social values from 2000 years ago, such as "the key to harmony in the household is for the wife to obey her husband implicitly"
• Promises of a fabulous paradise for those who jump through the hoops
• Suggestions that you should be good to other people, and if everyone did that the world would be a better place
• Judgement at time of death based on acts during life

All it needed was a mystical and impossible to understand trinity of man being god being holy spirit and a virgin birth before things start to get creepy.

Add to that, where I am it is not very far to go before there is a community of underclass here. Oh, we don't talk about it, of course. But not talking about it isn't making the issue go away like they hoped it would. That caste structure stems solely from Buddhist beliefs relating to the occupations of the ancestors of these people.

I think a lot of the "Buddhism is a philosophy" thinking in the West is a bit of cherrypicking, and a fair degree of knowing the Devil of the Abrahamic faiths and not knowing the Devil of the oriental ones. Indeed, I could rewrite Hammer's post and insert Jesus Christ in there, if you accept the not unreasonable claim that the "Son of God" story was a mythology constructed in the early days of the faith to make it more palatable to, or maybe force it upon, the unwashed masses.

[matsuki]

Like I said, call my view skewed and it's definitely been institutionalized into a religion here but what I meant was...

Buddhism, in its most elemental form, is definitely more philosophy than religion.

OK, now that my inner hippie is channeled...

Another one chiming in on the "Buddhism is a religion" issue.

• Charismatic founder
• A long list of martyrs for the cause in the early followers
• Preservation of social values from 2000 years ago, such as "the key to harmony in the household is for the wife to obey her husband implicitly"
• Promises of a fabulous paradise for those who jump through the hoops
• Suggestions that you should be good to other people, and if everyone did that the world would be a better place
• Judgement at time of death based on acts during life

All it needed was a mystical and impossible to understand trinity of man being god being holy spirit and a virgin birth before things start to get creepy.

Ehhh Philosophies don't have founders, crazed followers, social values, etc? I don't know how many forms of Buddhism there are nowadays but when you consider all the time periods, cultures, languages, etc. it's been filtered though to get to where it is now, wouldn't you say it's pretty open when it comes to interpretation? Anyhow, I'll meet you half way though and change my statement to "It's not a cult." (even though there are a few groups who have made cults citing it)

[Samurai_Jerk]

I think a lot of the "Buddhism is a philosophy" thinking in the West is a bit of cherrypicking, and a fair degree of knowing the Devil of the Abrahamic faiths and not knowing the Devil of the oriental ones. Indeed, I could rewrite Hammer's post and insert Jesus Christ in there, if you accept the not unreasonable claim that the "Son of God" story was a mythology constructed in the early days of the faith to make it more palatable to, or maybe force it upon, the unwashed masses.

Word. I think there are some sufis who would say the same about Islam.

I'm not trying to single out Buddhism or claim it's worse or even as bad as the Axis of Abrahamic Evil. However, when I hear the Western rose-tinted glasses view of Buddhism I want to Even if I bought the dubious claim that true Buddhism is a philosophy not a religion it doesn't matter because Buddhism as it is practiced by the vast majority of its followers today certainly is a religion. And in Japan it seems that most of the clergy aren't even believers in the foolishness they're promoting (however lightly) which truly is disgusting.

[wagyl]

Another one chiming in on the "Buddhism is a religion" issue.

• Charismatic founder
• A long list of martyrs for the cause in the early followers
• Preservation of social values from 2000 years ago, such as "the key to harmony in the household is for the wife to obey her husband implicitly"
• Promises of a fabulous paradise for those who jump through the hoops
• Suggestions that you should be good to other people, and if everyone did that the world would be a better place
• Judgement at time of death based on acts during life

All it needed was a mystical and impossible to understand trinity of man being god being holy spirit and a virgin birth before things start to get creepy.

Ehhh Philosophies don't have founders, crazed followers, social values, etc?

Poorly expressed, but my point was that the parallels between Christianity and Buddhism are uncanny. I think you would have to twist your body in remarkable ways to be able to draw a line and say one is a philosophy but the other is a religion. They can both be one, or the other, or indeed a mixture of the two depending on the individual believer. If you have an essential element present in one of them and not present in the other, which convincingly puts one of them in one of those camps, I would be interested to hear.

Full disclosure: I am not a believer, but was raised exposed to the belief system. And even if I did believe, I think most of the structure of organised religion is the work of man, not of the divine, and I think that too is a parallel between Christianity and Buddhism.

[Yokohammer]

Looks like we'll all have to agree that philosophy is a religion.

And I won't even disagree.

[matsuki]

However, when I hear the Western rose-tinted glasses view of Buddhism I want to

You mean the new age hippie shit? or maybe just the average person is simply ignorant and buying plastic bead bracelets with Kanji on them because the packaging says it is lucky? Anything with "Zen" on it...oh so spiritual! It's all pandering to some sort of romantic (ignorant) notions just like the wedding factories...errr chapels here put on a show for so many Japanese weddings. I agree, it's puke worthy.

If you have an essential element present in one of them and not present in the other, which convincingly puts one of them in one of those camps, I would be interested to hear.

A deity? Although I guess that doesn't really make it not a religion. How about calling out the followers of other religions as being damned and declaring itself the only true path? Anyhow, you can see where I'm going with this...

[Wage Slave]

I was at a very high profile temple a while ago and found myself feeling a little cynical and even annoyed with the "We make and have always made the most diligent and comprehensive efforts to achieve and preserve peace. Diligent prayer, devotion, sacrifice and training for peace is our highest priority" message being pushed firmly in my direction.

The question that intruded into my mind was, "Where were you and what were you doing during the 30's and 40's then?". Perhaps there is a good answer to that - I don't know. A religion when it suits but also just a philosophy when that suits?

[Hijinx]

Yep, passes the sniff test:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Burma ... slim_riots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dhei

[matsuki]

I was at a very high profile temple a while ago and found myself feeling a little cynical and even annoyed with the "We make and have always made the most diligent and comprehensive efforts to achieve and preserve peace. Diligent prayer, devotion, sacrifice and training for peace is our highest priority" message being pushed firmly in my direction.

The question that intruded into my mind was, "Where were you and what were you doing during the 30's and 40's then?". Perhaps there is a good answer to that - I don't know. A religion when it suits but also just a philosophy when that suits?

Religious philosophy aside, that's like blaming the peasants of north Korea every time Kim Jong Un launches another missile...

Yep, passes the sniff test:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Burma ... slim_riots

Not that I'm claiming anything about any sect of Buddhism but...

969 Movement is a nationalist movement

[matsuki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dhei

Cuz you know, the Japanese are well known for the authenticity of how they interpret anything foreign.

[Wage Slave]

I was at a very high profile temple a while ago and found myself feeling a little cynical and even annoyed with the "We make and have always made the most diligent and comprehensive efforts to achieve and preserve peace. Diligent prayer, devotion, sacrifice and training for peace is our highest priority" message being pushed firmly in my direction.

The question that intruded into my mind was, "Where were you and what were you doing during the 30's and 40's then?". Perhaps there is a good answer to that - I don't know. A religion when it suits but also just a philosophy when that suits?

Religious philosophy aside, that's like blaming the peasants of north Korea every time Kim Jong Un launches another missile...

Is it? But they claim, as an organisation, a moral virtue based on both belief and rigorous practice. I'm not saying they could have stopped what happened in the 30s and 40s or they are to blame but I am curious to know what their position was at the time. What were they saying? What were they doing? Were Nationalist/Fascist politicians and generals welcome at their temples or were they excluded?

[matsuki]

Is it? But they claim, as an organisation, a moral virtue based on both belief and rigorous practice. I'm not saying they could have stopped what happened in the 30s and 40s or they are to blame but I am curious to know what their position was at the time. What were they saying? What were they doing? Were Nationalist/Fascist politicians and generals welcome at their temples or were they excluded?

You're missing my point...think about how free the average Japanese was to express anything that goes against what the gov/military was doing at the time.

...but for arguments sake, let's say the leaders of the temples fully and willingly supported the shit the military/gov did. Do you think they would really do the same in 2014?

[Wage Slave]

Is it? But they claim, as an organisation, a moral virtue based on both belief and rigorous practice. I'm not saying they could have stopped what happened in the 30s and 40s or they are to blame but I am curious to know what their position was at the time. What were they saying? What were they doing? Were Nationalist/Fascist politicians and generals welcome at their temples or were they excluded?

You're missing my point...think about how free the average Japanese was to express anything that goes against what the gov/military was doing at the time.

But I'm not talking about the average Japanese. I am talking about a very very high profile and well off religious organisation that loudly claims a moral virtue based on their veneration of and diligent efforts for peace.

Of course I don't think that Christianity can claim anything better in their record but still, the powerful claim to moral superiority grated with me.

[wagyl]

If you have an essential element present in one of them and not present in the other, which convincingly puts one of them in one of those camps, I would be interested to hear.

A deity? Although I guess that doesn't really make it not a religion. How about calling out the followers of other religions as being damned and declaring itself the only true path? Anyhow, you can see where I'm going with this...

Yes I agree that it is entirely likely that you and I will have different views about this, and in most cases this is fine. In the general scheme of things, this will not interfere with daily discussion. What brought it to a fore this time is that some people were claiming that in relation to certain objects, because they have a special significance to them as a result of the faith of certain people, the degree of damage is irrelevant to any punishment issued to the person doing the damage: small or large, because of the faith based significance, the punishment should be as though it is a large amount of damage. I do not agree with that concept, but if we are to accept that line of thinking, then we have to determine what is a faith and what is not a faith. And so we take this journey down this rabbit hole...

I am aware that there are many different sects of Buddhism, just as there are denominations of Christianity, and indeed of Judaism and Islam. They are sects precisely because there are differences in belief between them, so it could well be that the promoters of the Teachings of Buddha books are not in agreement with everyone: I suspect they may be Pure Land Sect.

I have cheekily put part of your quote in bold. One true path.....

Buddhism is taught as a way to the welfare and happiness of all using keys to reveal the true nature of the world and practices to maintain a right relationship with the self and with the world and those in it.

Our way is the true way and the right way. Then again, the very next line is

Buddhism is a religion, a series of practices and a way of life based on the teachings of the Buddha who, after achieving enlightenment, taught that the nature of the world is constant change.

so maybe you are not in agreement.


(And Psssst, if it is a philosophy, you have a huge tax bill coming your way)

[Wage Slave]

...but for arguments sake, let's say the leaders of the temples fully and willingly supported the shit the military/gov did. Do you think they would really do the same in 2014?

It doesn't require full and willing support all it needs is to be able to look the other way/regard it all as none of their business.

[Samurai_Jerk]

You mean the new age hippie shit? or maybe just the average person is simply ignorant and buying plastic bead bracelets with Kanji on them because the packaging says it is lucky?

Both but mostly the former. I see the latter as a result or symptom of the new age hippie shit.

I've also heard the whole Buddhism is a religion of peace and there's never been a religious war involving Buddhists. It may be true that there has never been a religious war like the battle between Islam and Christendom that took place during the crusades. However, nations have gone to war using Buddhist teachings to support their cause, Buddhist regimes have ruled brutally, and Buddhist beliefs have been used to justify some pretty questionable things. You can claim that wasn't true Buddhism and I might even agree but that again is the same claim that every other religion makes when you bring up atrocities committed in the name of their god or gods.

A deity? Although I guess that doesn't really make it not a religion.

Buddhism doesn't have an all powerful omnipotent deity and maybe there wasn't ever supposed to be any deities but it's hard to argue that most sects of Buddhism haven't turned Buddhas into demi-gods with supernatural powers. Plus there are those demons and other magical beings that have been added over the centuries.

Belief in a supernatural force, whether it's God, Karma, or Ju-Ju, that affects you in this life or the next is religion.

[matsuki]

But I'm not talking about the average Japanese. I am talking about a very very high profile and well off religious organisation that loudly claims a moral virtue based on their veneration of and diligent efforts for peace.

Of course I don't think that Christianity can claim anything better in their record but still, the powerful claim to moral superiority grated with me.

No arguing from me about the money and influence they had but do you really think they could have butted heads with the J-gov/military? Probably would have had all their leaders replaced with people who would tow J-gov/military line. Not saying there is moral superiority here though. Any religion could have the same thing happen. I mean, how did all those Spanish Catholics justify enslaving/massacring Native Americans? They declared them as non-human animals, as misguided children that need the teachings of the obviously superior Catholic ways. I'm pretty sure this isn't what the origins of Catholicism had in mind and many of the followers disagreed...but it happened nonetheless, because it's what those in power wanted.

What brought it to a fore this time is that some people were claiming that in relation to certain objects, because they have a special significance to them as a result of the faith of certain people, the degree of damage is irrelevant to any punishment issued to the person doing the damage: small or large, because of the faith based significance, the punishment should be as though it is a large amount of damage. I do not agree with that concept, but if we are to accept that line of thinking, then we have to determine what is a faith and what is not a faith. And so we take this journey down this rabbit hole...

Isn't that more an issue of value than religion? If someone burned the only picture I had of my long dead great great grandmother, it's priceless to me but how would you financially define the loss?

(And Psssst, if it is a philosophy, you have a huge tax bill coming your way)

Prrrrrrrrrrraise Buddha the almighty! We got ourselves a registered Japaneeeeezu religion!!

Both but mostly the former. I see the latter as a result or symptom of the new age hippie shit.

I've also heard the whole Buddhism is a religion of peace and there's never been a religious war involving Buddhists. It may be true that there has never been a religious war like the battle between Islam and Christendom that took place during the crusades. However, nations have gone to war using Buddhist teachings to support their cause, Buddhist regimes have ruled brutally, and Buddhist beliefs have been used to justify some pretty questionable things. You can claim that wasn't true Buddhism and I might even agree but that again is the same claim that every other religion makes when you bring up atrocities committed in the name of their god or gods.

Buddhism doesn't have an all powerful omnipotent deity and maybe there wasn't ever supposed to be any deities but it's hard to argue that most sects of Buddhism haven't turned Buddhas into demi-gods with supernatural powers. Plus there are those demons and other magical beings that have been added over the centuries.

Belief in a supernatural force, whether it's God, Karma, or Ju-Ju, that affects you in this life or the next is religion.

Yeah, the whole "but that is not really true [insert religion here]" can fly with anything done "in the name of." The two big religions seem to use that one quite a lot.

How about this...in Japan specifically, most people are Buddhists more out of tradition rather than for the religious/philosophical teachings.

[wagyl]

What brought it to a fore this time is that some people were claiming that in relation to certain objects, because they have a special significance to them as a result of the faith of certain people, the degree of damage is irrelevant to any punishment issued to the person doing the damage: small or large, because of the faith based significance, the punishment should be as though it is a large amount of damage. I do not agree with that concept, but if we are to accept that line of thinking, then we have to determine what is a faith and what is not a faith. And so we take this journey down this rabbit hole...

Isn't that more an issue of value than religion? If someone burned the only picture I had of my long dead great great grandmother, it's priceless to me but how would you financially define the loss?

The issue is the degree of damage: crack in one report, destruction in another, and whether that crack means it is destroyed. I suppose the issue is can the damage be repaired?
I refer this discussion to He is Legion

You crack a religious artifact, in a way you destroy it by damaging its sanctity.

who in my view had the one correct answer to my "what makes a religion a religion?" question:

Usually a bit of time to turn from a cult.

with a very close runner up Yanpa

Power and influence.

although you could have a lot of intense discussions over a case or two of wine as to which was cause and which was effect.

I suppose what has got me so involved in this very interesting thread is that I sense emotions creeping into the analysis, based on the assumed faith of the accused and the faith (or not LOL) based nature of the damage. People are guessing that it is a faith based crime, rather than just a crime against artworks. We only have what the police say about the crime, but then again I could imagine the Expressway Police in Niigata issuing a report about guys going 125 Km/h and we would be none the wiser about the views of the accused. It is a difficult issue and one which we cannot completely shut out, but I think emotions based on assumptions (= prejudice) should not be a part of criminal justice. And as for the allegation of the involvement of alcohol in the crime of someone you assume to be a good Muslim.....

[Hijinx]

How about this...in Japan specifically, most people are Buddhists more out of tradition rather than for the religious/philosophical teachings.

Secular Buddhists?

[Samurai_Jerk]

I suppose what has got me so involved in this very interesting thread is that I sense emotions creeping into the analysis, based on the assumed faith of the accused and the faith (or not LOL) based nature of the damage. People are guessing that it is a faith based crime, rather than just a crime against artworks.

Which is why I asked if there were any reports saying why he had done it. I realize my own prejudice makes me assume he probably did it for religious reasons but he could just as easily have been a drunk fuckwit in the mood to vandalize something or suffering from bipolar disorder. Who knows?

And as for the allegation of the involvement of alcohol in the crime of someone you assume to be a good Muslim

That actually wouldn't be all that unusual. Muslims are just as capable of hypocrisy and cherry picking which rules to follow and which ones not to follow as anyone else. I've had Muslim friends, beer in hand, bitch about me ordering a pork dish at an izakaya.

How about this...in Japan specifically, most people are Buddhists more out of tradition rather than for the religious/philosophical teachings.

I think that also applies to a lot of Christians. That's especially true in Europe but there are even plenty of people in United States of Jesus that are cultural Christians and only got to church for weddings, funerals, and maybe Christmas once or twice a decade. Same with a lot of Jews. I could see how there would be even more pressure for a Jew who didn't believe to hold onto some of the religious traditions because if you get rid of all the religious aspects of being Jewish and raise your kids with zero exposure to them as some point your descendants will stop being Jewish. Whereas you can stop being Catholic and still be Irish or stop being Lutheran and still be Swedish.

I went to the bris for my friend's son a couple of years ago. He's not particularly religious but definitely has a pretty strong Jewish identity so there was no surprised he'd get his sons circumcised. I asked his little brother who is an atheist if he'd do the same if he had a son and he said he's really not sure and it'll be a moral dilemma for him. Their grandmother who I've met a couple of times and is still around is ultra Orthodox and survived a concentration camp so I can understand why he'd feel conflicted.

[Mike Oxlong]

I suppose what has got me so involved in this very interesting thread is that I sense emotions creeping into the analysis, based on the assumed faith of the accused and the faith (or not LOL) based nature of the damage. People are guessing that it is a faith based crime, rather than just a crime against artworks.

Which is why I asked if there were any reports saying why he had done it. I realize my own prejudice makes me assume he probably did it for religious reasons but he could just as easily have been a drunk fuckwit in the mood to vandalize something or suffering from bipolar disorder. Who knows?

And as for the allegation of the involvement of alcohol in the crime of someone you assume to be a good Muslim

One of the news reports claim he damaged statues at a couple temples. If correct, it seems more likely faith-based asshatery.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I suppose what has got me so involved in this very interesting thread is that I sense emotions creeping into the analysis, based on the assumed faith of the accused and the faith (or not LOL) based nature of the damage. People are guessing that it is a faith based crime, rather than just a crime against artworks.

Which is why I asked if there were any reports saying why he had done it. I realize my own prejudice makes me assume he probably did it for religious reasons but he could just as easily have been a drunk fuckwit in the mood to vandalize something or suffering from bipolar disorder. Who knows?

And as for the allegation of the involvement of alcohol in the crime of someone you assume to be a good Muslim

One of the news reports claim he damaged statues at a couple temples. If correct, it seems more likely faith-based asshatery.

I agree but it could also be wanting to damage something of cultural significance that's easy to access and would particularly piss the locals off. Graffiti on the subway probably wouldn't have the same effect and artifacts in museums aren't that easy to get your hands on.

[legion]

Is it? But they claim, as an organisation, a moral virtue based on both belief and rigorous practice. I'm not saying they could have stopped what happened in the 30s and 40s or they are to blame but I am curious to know what their position was at the time. What were they saying? What were they doing? Were Nationalist/Fascist politicians and generals welcome at their temples or were they excluded?

Their position was outnumbered by the neo-shinto-ist miltary and secret police.

Komusou shakuhachi was banned for years, it only survived by being handed down teacher to pupil, must have been an interesting slant on the neighbour banging on the wall.

One of the early Meiji slogans was “Sweep aside the Buddha. Smash Buddhism”. Most of the shakuhachi komuso temples of the Fuke Shu were burned or converted.

http://flutedojo.com/shakuhachi-guides/shakuhachi-history

[matsuki]

Is it? But they claim, as an organisation, a moral virtue based on both belief and rigorous practice. I'm not saying they could have stopped what happened in the 30s and 40s or they are to blame but I am curious to know what their position was at the time. What were they saying? What were they doing? Were Nationalist/Fascist politicians and generals welcome at their temples or were they excluded?

Their position was outnumbered by the neo-shinto-ist miltary and secret police.

Komusou shakuhachi was banned for years, it only survived by being handed down teacher to pupil, must have been an interesting slant on the neighbour banging on the wall.

One of the early Meiji slogans was “Sweep aside the Buddha. Smash Buddhism”. Most of the shakuhachi komuso temples of the Fuke Shu were burned or converted.

http://flutedojo.com/shakuhachi-guides/shakuhachi-history

Thank you....that's what I was trying to say though posting on the job sometimes limits my google searching.

...and for the record, I technically had to declare I'm buddhist to marry the temple lemur and while I totally jive with the traditions/philosophy that the teach (and do follow themselves) I still feel weird getting money from strangers and I definitely am no preacher. Since I doubt I'll ever become a priest, I focused on making the temple a legit shelter in case of emergency, offering all kinds of community support/counseling/FG are not evil PR, and basically tried to make the place worth it's salt regardless of religion.

[Samurai_Jerk]

...and for the record, I technically had to declare I'm buddhist to marry the temple lemur and while I totally jive with the traditions/philosophy that the teach (and do follow themselves) I still feel weird getting money from strangers and I definitely am no preacher. Since I doubt I'll ever become a priest, I focused on making the temple a legit shelter in case of emergency, offering all kinds of community support/counseling/FG are not evil PR, and basically tried to make the place worth it's salt regardless of religion.

You really are a scumbag.

[Taro Toporific]

• Question: "Is religion important to you?"

religion-important.png

http://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/WVSContents.jsp 2012

[Russell]

[Samurai_Jerk]

Just when you want to hate the Saudis they come along with a very reasonable explanation like this

[Coligny]

Nooo waaayyyy that kind of reactionary would speak to a female who don't cover her head and with tits nearly popping out of her clothes...

Can I have her corpse when they done stoning her ?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Nooo waaayyyy that kind of reactionary would speak to a female who don't cover her head and with tits nearly popping out of her clothes...

Can I have her corpse when they done stoning her ?

I do love the way she openly laughs in his face.