12 dead in Paris shooting

[Samurai_Jerk]

This pathology of some in the western world to deny reality in hope it will just go away to be somebody else's problem never cease to shock me.

Actually major Islamic leaders in Australia, Europe and the Middle East say openly they are in war with Europe and call their people to attack the infidels. Declaring their affiliation is a big part of the attack.


In short, wake up and smell the (Arabian) coffee, in the next decade Europe is going to bath in blood of mostly innocent Christians and Muslims.

That hardly equals ...

all, or at least an overwhelmingly majority of Muslims are preparing a bloodbath for non muslims on theological grounds.

[wangta]

Wangta, your summary is pretty fair except the advance warning issue was far more contentious. According to the authorities they didn't give sufficient time and also followed a strategy of issuing a huge number of false warnings using recognised code words. When it was real it was hard to separate out from all the false warnings and there wasn't enough time to clear somewhere like Victoria Station in the middle of the morning rush hour before nail bombs sent shrapnel ripping through the crowded concourse.

Anyway, my point was that the facts aside, I can assure you that according to quite a lot of people, the Catholic church was in fact driving, supporting and enabling IRA terrorism, the Irish people were basically violent thugs in the thrall of this and they were almost all guilty of enabling and hiding the terrorists. They also refused to accept that there was any real cause behind the terrorism or that people like the RUC needed fundamental reform.

Sound familiar?

Fair enough. Thanks for that correction re the warnings. I am in no way an apologist for the IRA and the Jean McConville case, for example, is one of the most sickening episodes of those violent times. I know people still hold that Jean McConville was targeted because she was a Protestant although her husband had been Catholic but she had a son being held in prison on suspicion of being a member of the IRA. It seems her humanity to a British soldier who had been shot and her strong sense of self respect in not kowtowing to the local IRA women's committee were the reasons for the barbarism that followed.

Of course to this day there's a lot of antagonism in the UK media about IRA people receiving immunity from prosecution as part of the peace deal but these people fanning it conveniently forget that there are many dirty secrets about the British side and the Loyalist side including British military working with Loyalist death squads etc.

I know that we all have to keep a sense of perspective. Muslim Australians are diverse and there are people like some of the Shi'ite groups who said after the Martin Place siege 'We are Australian and we share Australian values'. The majority of Muslim groups made anti terror statements in words and actions after the seige had finished. One moderate Shi'ite leader was actually shot by a hardline Muslim around that time.

And I thought that there should have been more public expressions of support in Australia by non Muslims for Pakistan and its people when those students were murdered by the Taliban around the same time.

[Wage Slave]

(Re SJ's comment)

Well either that is what he meant or he lacks the ability to use determiners and quantifiers. Without them the default in English is something like "almost all".

Or, it was clever. State something by implication and then deny having said it. Aka, cry straw man.

[Wage Slave]

Wangta, I couldn't agree more.

[Taro Toporific]

They're "heroes"!

heroes.jpg

L'Etat islamique célèbre les «héros» qui ont tué «Charlie»
Libération | 8 JANVIER 2015

[kagemusha]

This pathology of some in the western world to deny reality in hope it will just go away to be somebody else's problem never cease to shock me.

Actually major Islamic leaders in Australia, Europe and the Middle East say openly they are in war with Europe and call their people to attack the infidels. Declaring their affiliation is a big part of the attack.


In short, wake up and smell the (Arabian) coffee, in the next decade Europe is going to bath in blood of mostly innocent Christians and Muslims.

That hardly equals ...

all, or at least an overwhelmingly majority of Muslims are preparing a bloodbath for non muslims on theological grounds.

Thank you, it's nice to see there are still people around here who spend the time to read and make the effort to understand before they shit out of their mouth.
The Irony is that regarding the 'bloodbath' I am more worried that much more innocent Muslims will die in the backlash since they are caught between their fanatics and Europe's growing movements of 'good ol'boys' who know how to deal with minorities.
My prediction that after a wave of sporadic terror attacks in Europe whole moderate Muslim communities will have to relocate and find safer haven.

Another point regarding Islamic leaders. when Qardawi, the most important leader of the Sunni world says the Jihad allows terror and suicide attacks on infidel civilians, women and children and then being welcome warmly by European governments - what kind of message is it to young Muslims sitting on the fence? If due to oil and other economic reasons Europe support regimes of leaders who call for the destruction of the west - it's a bit silly to be surprised when that is the outcome.
Someone here brought up some sane Muslim leaders who call for understanding. I have two things to say about it.
when I listen to Tariq Ramadan lecturing or debating in English I feel like I have just found a lost brother. That soft speaking Muslim leader talking about understanding, the importance of multicultural society and so on. When he speaks in Arabic to a Muslim crowd it's a different tune, Jihad will spread Islam all over the world he promises, by political way or by the sword. That kind of dual speaking is widespread among those religious leaders and it's enough to fool some fools.
To say that those radicals are a minority among Muslims is another idiotic ignorant attitude, it's like saying that despite the tumor most of my body is okay so I can just ignore it and it will go away. In the last 30 years, since Saudi Arabia started investing hundreds of billions to spread Wahabi doctrines around the world more and more Muslims are born into a binary world - only one of us can live - no compromising. The numbers of Muslims die every month due to that doctrine is staggering but we don't give a fuck as long it's Muslims killing Muslims.
Still so many in the west are suffering from the pathology I mentioned before. The 'Nobel Savage' syndrome is another effect that clouds people mind but there is not much I can do about it.

[Wage Slave]

Thank you, it's nice to see there are still people around here who spend the time to read and make the effort to understand before they shit out of their mouth.

Wrong. You wrote so badly, sloppily and emotively that you created unintended meaning and ambiguity. Don't blame me.

Anyway, it now appears we in fact agree. There are some terrorist groups who claim Islamic credentials. They are everyone's enemy, including all other muslims. We need to destroy these groups and their poisonous ideologies. We will do that best not through assigning collective blame to Muslims or Arabs and handing out collective punishment but by taking targeted military action where needed and addressing some of the root causes of the support they enjoy.

Agreed?

[matsuki]

700[1].jpg

"WASHINGTON—Following the publication of the image above, in which the most cherished figures from multiple religious faiths were depicted engaging in a lascivious sex act of considerable depravity, no one was murdered, beaten, or had their lives threatened, sources reported Thursday. The image of the Hebrew prophet Moses high-fiving Jesus Christ as both are having their erect penises vigorously masturbated by Ganesha, all while the Hindu deity anally penetrates Buddha with his fist, reportedly went online at 6:45 p.m. EDT, after which not a single bomb threat was made against the organization responsible, nor did the person who created the cartoon go home fearing for his life in any way. Though some members of the Jewish, Christian, Hindu, and Buddhist faiths were reportedly offended by the image, sources confirmed that upon seeing it, they simply shook their heads, rolled their eyes, and continued on with their day."

[Yokohammer]

Gross, but a point well made.

[kagemusha]

Wrong. You wrote so badly, sloppily and emotively that you created unintended meaning and ambiguity. Don't blame me.

Still, some people 'managed' to understand it. Still, I'll take 'unintended meaning and ambiguity' over rudeness and immaturity any day.

Agreed?

No, because (again) you are missing the whole point. Military actions against a village in Afghanistan are meaningless unless they are to stop an immediate attack. What the Muslim world has plenty of right now are fanatics who are happy to die and AK-47s. Kill one and three others pops up.
What we need is for the Europeans leaders to go to the attic, find their balls and call for an official free speech week where derogatory images of Allah, Muhammad, Santa, Ghandi, known liberals, Communist leaders, Omshinrikyu loonies, me and you - would be hanged everywhere in public - anything goes as long it doesn't calls for violence and not racist. If anyone feels offended he is more than welcome to say what he wants in a peaceful way or get the fuck out of there.

[Wage Slave]

rudeness and immaturity

Look back at your posts and mine. Who indulged in rudeness and immaturity?

[matsuki]

rudeness and immaturity

Look back at your posts and mine. Who indulged in rudeness and immaturity?

sorry, I thought you guys were used to my rude immaturity by now

[Wage Slave]

rudeness and immaturity

Look back at your posts and mine. Who indulged in rudeness and immaturity?

sorry, I thought you guys were used to my rude immaturity by now

You may be many things but you are not abusive and overbearing with it.

[matsuki]

Not unless I get dinner and a movie first. Even worse if I'm drunk.

[kurogane]

All the pissy pissing aside, it is rather ironic that we tolerate their troglodytic slovenliness but have to apologise when they don't tolerate us just being us. And even the decent ones get pissy when we make Paedobear jokes about their Great Leader, and call us heathens when they refer to us.

I like it because it exposes them for the pissy pyjama-ed poopyheads they have chosen to be, but at a broader level it does raise a legitimate question: why should we put up with such a historically pointless group of people that bring nothing to our table except for another chance for hand wringing white cat ladies to preen and preach the painfully obvious to their betters? My answer is that it is an unfortunate cost for having chosen to be who we are, but I can't condemn anybody less magnanimous. They really are doing their best to turn into an evolutionary oxbow, and I am only to happy to watch, laugh and cheer. As an example, look at those filthy Palestinian wretches. If they were Jews that place would be in the OECD by now.

[Yokohammer]

Thing is ... the violent ones are just violent people looking for an excuse to be violent. Their religion gives them that, which is why they choose that particular flavour. The violent aspect is already established and it appeals to violent people. All their demands could be met to a "T" but they'd still find something to be offended about that needs to be avenged "with the blood of the infidel".

What a crock. They are violent people, pure and simple.

If the true leaders of a peaceful Islam are out there, they're the ones who need to get off their haunches and make it clear to everyone, worldwide, that those violent people are not true followers of the faith and reject them unequivocally. It could be done, but we're still waiting. The smattering of authoritative Islamic voices denouncing the violence is just too feeble and tentative to carry any real weight.

[matsuki]

Just food for thought...while this kind of Islam was a minority in the Arab world and Arabs welcomed an influx of foreign ideas/concepts (Greek), they led the world in all kinds of science, math, etc. Not that Islam is the only religion/set of beliefs cable of this but when you choose to turn your back on rational thinking and enforce your beliefs with violence...

[kurogane]

Yup. Their silenceses is deafening. Not even Bible Belters get the sort of passive support the freaks get in Islamistan.

[Yokohammer]

If it's a war between Islam and everyone else, it cannot be won either way. It has to be "True Islam" pulling "Misguided Islam" into line (I'm being charitable here for a minute). An Islamic Peace Corps, for example? Missions set up worldwide to re-educate the misguided ones in the ways of True Islam?

Seriously ... where's the effort? No central authority?

Gee, d'ya suppose the "central authority" might sort of be supporting all this violence?

I truly pity the peace-loving followers of a religion that can't get its act together enough to establish the ground rules for a peaceful existence in unequivocal terms.

[kagemusha]

Seriously ... where's the effort? No central authority?

As I said, the central authority is actually encourage the fanatics, it's like 'England has talent' but with more beheading technics and death chants competition.

[wagyl]

My understanding is that there is no central authority or heirarchy, which makes comments about "leading leaders" nothing more than the media trying to big up a story. It also allows any Tom, Dick or Mustafa to claim that they are a respected leader, and once again the media and youtube viewers lap it up.

All I can say is that these people do not resemble the behaviour of the believers of Islam I know. Then again, I wouldn't hang out with a lot of these extreme people, whatever their beliefs.

If the remaining body of Islam is guilty of anything, it is of trying to ignore the problem so that it goes away, in a non violent strategy. They know that the actions of those few do not make Islam look good, but it is hard to know what the solution to this problem is. I do know that the solution does not lie in refusing to engage with the believers of Islam except in a hostile way. Both cultures flourish in exchange. The resurgence of "I hate my neighbour who I have never met as a person" is not a positive thing. And that goes in two directions.

[Yokohammer]

Apparently the two guys who escaped have taken a hostage and holed up in a company building somewhere after a shootout with police.

Now it's just a matter of time.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Coligny]

My understanding is that there is no central authority or heirarchy, which makes comments about "leading leaders" nothing more than the media trying to big up a story. It also allows any Tom, Dick or Mustafa to claim that they are a respected leader, and once again the media and youtube viewers lap it up.

All I can say is that these people do not resemble the behaviour of the believers of Islam I know. Then again, I wouldn't hang out with a lot of these extreme people, whatever their beliefs.

If the remaining body of Islam is guilty of anything, it is of trying to ignore the problem so that it goes away, in a non violent strategy. They know that the actions of those few do not make Islam look good, but it is hard to know what the solution to this problem is. I do know that the solution does not lie in refusing to engage with the believers of Islam except in a hostile way. Both cultures flourish in exchange. The resurgence of "I hate my neighbour who I have never met as a person" is not a positive thing. And that goes in two directions.

Waffles ?

Your place ?

(I have real unsalted butter a plenty)

[Russell]

This looks less and less like a False Flag operation. I am now satisfied that this is a genuine terror attack.

BTW, the third suspect who gave himself up as soon as he saw his name in the media has been reported to be in a classroom at the time of the first killing. So, he appears innocent.

[wagyl]

Waffles ?

Your place ?

(I have real unsalted butter a plenty)

Sure, as long as you are not extreme.

For the next couple of months you have to dig your own car parking space out of the snow, though.

[Coligny]

This looks less and less like a False Flag operation. I am now satisfied that this is a genuine terror attack.

you can't call a false flag unless it precisely benefit or is exploited by someone not long after the fact. Everything have a cost/benefit ratio. False flags tends to be on the expensive side... You usually need idiots to properly carry false flag... And idiots tend to be unpredictable...

BTW, the third suspect who gave himself up as soon as he saw his name in the media has been reported to be in a classroom at the time of the first killing. So, he appears innocent.

Yes, his classmates immediately vouched for him. But an arab, not skipping class... That's double plus suspicious

One thing near certain, there might be a lot of jobs opening in the French intelligence, and as much former officers given the pink slip... Because they didn't see it coming, when it happened they were just startled and got suspect names only by sheer luck it seems. They didn't get those AK47 at the duty free... I hope it was a complimentary gift with their mujaheedeen training and not an active bigger cell running the show behind. At least the guy in Montrouge used an MP7, the fact that he had a bulletproof vest is weird (illegal for civilians but allowed for security pro). I have the feeling the -something- was interrupted/cut short and he had to go low instead...

[Coligny]

. I am now satisfied that this is a genuine terror attack.

Also, Cabu and Wolinski are dead, so fuck you Russel, fuck you very much.

[Russell]

. I am now satisfied that this is a genuine terror attack.

Also, Cabu and Wolinski are dead, so fuck you Russel, fuck you very much.

My "satisfied" is not used in the meaning of "feeling good", but in the meaning of "convinced".

As much as you, I am horrified by the fates of the victims.

Just wanting to clear that up.

[Wage Slave]

My understanding is that there is no central authority or heirarchy, which makes comments about "leading leaders" nothing more than the media trying to big up a story. It also allows any Tom, Dick or Mustafa to claim that they are a respected leader, and once again the media and youtube viewers lap it up.

All I can say is that these people do not resemble the behaviour of the believers of Islam I know. Then again, I wouldn't hang out with a lot of these extreme people, whatever their beliefs.

If the remaining body of Islam is guilty of anything, it is of trying to ignore the problem so that it goes away, in a non violent strategy. They know that the actions of those few do not make Islam look good, but it is hard to know what the solution to this problem is. I do know that the solution does not lie in refusing to engage with the believers of Islam except in a hostile way. Both cultures flourish in exchange. The resurgence of "I hate my neighbour who I have never met as a person" is not a positive thing. And that goes in two directions.

Too right. European Muslims and their leaders have left no-one in any doubt how they and their followers feel about this and other events. As far as the likes of ISIS is concerned, I came to the conclusion some time ago that the only option left to us in the short term is decisive military force. And you won't hear a peep from Muslims in protest. At present the fighting on the ground is being done by other Muslims - And if we can keep it that way then all the better and hopefully some of these hateful voices will pipe down a bit.

[Coligny]

Moutrouge shooting/shooter reportedly linked to Charlie Hebdo shooting.

NOW DEVELOPPING:
Reported shooting Portes de Vincennes Paris south-east.
(Source France 24 news, livecast is choppy)