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  • fuckedgaijin ‹ General ‹ F*cked News

JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Odd news from Japan and all things Japanese around the world.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:23 am

Wage Slave wrote:There must be another reason, but we aren't going to be told at this stage. I'm not one to speculate too much but I will say it's hard to think of a good reason for not destroying that building that isn't pretty scary.


If it's not some kind of nefarious Illuminati plot, one reason I could think of is the powers that be want Daesh to remain a more or less centralized "Caliphate" for now. As the Atlantic article that Yokohammer linked in the other thread pointed out, if you destroy the Caliphate, you take away the obligation of the Daesh jihadis to be there. This could lead to a mass exodus of people very willing and able to set up terror cells back wherever they came from. As awful as they are, Daesh might actually be relatively contained right now.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Wage Slave » Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:47 am

Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Wage Slave wrote:There must be another reason, but we aren't going to be told at this stage. I'm not one to speculate too much but I will say it's hard to think of a good reason for not destroying that building that isn't pretty scary.


If it's not some kind of nefarious Illuminati plot, one reason I could think of is the powers that be want Daesh to remain a more or less centralized "Caliphate" for now. As the Atlantic article that Yokohammer linked in the other thread pointed out, if you destroy the Caliphate, you take away the obligation of the Daesh jihadis to be there. This could lead to a mass exodus of people very willing and able to set up terror cells back wherever they came from. As awful as they are, Daesh might actually be relatively contained right now.


I hadn't even considered illuminati plots - I'm not even sure who or what they might be. So, it's better to keep Daesh centralised and in business than to destroy them ......Hmmm, I didn't read the article that way. I read it more that it may well be better to bleed them to death slowly rather than risk an all out boots on the ground assault that may only serve to widen the conflict to parties not currently engaged and create another mess in the ensuing chaos and rush to set up a new authority in Syria/Iraq. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. Destroying their headquarters and command and control from the air would seem to fit with the bleed them to death strategy.

And as for returnee surviving Daesh members, aren't they are few enough in number and identifiable enough that we can deal with them. Outside their Caliphate, disarmed and incarcerated/supervised they don't pose much threat.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

- Macbeth (Act 5, Scene 5)

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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:01 am

Wage Slave wrote:
Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Wage Slave wrote:There must be another reason, but we aren't going to be told at this stage. I'm not one to speculate too much but I will say it's hard to think of a good reason for not destroying that building that isn't pretty scary.


If it's not some kind of nefarious Illuminati plot, one reason I could think of is the powers that be want Daesh to remain a more or less centralized "Caliphate" for now. As the Atlantic article that Yokohammer linked in the other thread pointed out, if you destroy the Caliphate, you take away the obligation of the Daesh jihadis to be there. This could lead to a mass exodus of people very willing and able to set up terror cells back wherever they came from. As awful as they are, Daesh might actually be relatively contained right now.


I hadn't even considered illuminati plots - I'm not even sure who or what they might be. So, it's better to keep Daesh centralised and in business than to destroy them ......Hmmm, I didn't read the article that way. I read it more that it may well be better to bleed them to death slowly rather than risk an all out boots on the ground assault that may only serve to widen the conflict to parties not currently engaged and create another mess in the ensuing chaos and rush to set up a new authority in Syria/Iraq. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. Destroying their headquarters and command and control from the air would seem to fit with the bleed them to death strategy.

And as for returnee surviving Daesh members, aren't they are few enough in number and identifiable enough that we can deal with them. Outside their Caliphate, disarmed and incarcerated/supervised they don't pose much threat.


I'm not claiming that was the conclusion of the article. I was just using one of the points in the article. Whether or not it's better to keep them centralized depends on what the goal is. It's very possible the folks in power want a ground war but know they don't have popular support for it ... yet. As for identifying Daesh members, if it were that easy, they would't be much of a threat.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Coligny » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:03 am

If they spread out with the HQ blown, i don't see the whole "coordination/planning/training" stuff going too well.
One of the comical reason is they want to make them think it's safe. Then blow it to bitz...
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:24 am

Coligny wrote:If they spread out with the HQ blown, i don't see the whole "coordination/planning/training" stuff going too well.
One of the comical reason is they want to make them think it's safe. Then blow it to bitz...


The latest attack in Paris was allegedly planned from Belgium, right?
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby kurogane » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:35 am

The latest reports do suggest it sprouted in Brussells. Apparently there is a veritable harvest of extremism to be had there.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:51 pm

It seems like Russia has also noticed.

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday ordered the Russian missile cruiser Moskva, currently in the Mediterranean, to start cooperating with the French military on operations in Syria.

Putin's statement came as Russia's defense minister said its warplanes have fired cruise missiles on militant positions in Syria's Idlib and Aleppo provinces. The Islamic State group has positions in Aleppo province; Idlib has the presence of the Nusra Front militant group.

Hours earlier, Russia had acknowledged that a terrorist bomb was responsible for the Oct. 31 crash of a Russian airliner that killed all 224 people aboard. IS claimed responsibility for downing the airliner.

[...]

As Russia's campaign in Syria intensifies, Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov criticized the United States for pursuing what he said was a contradictory and confusing policy in Syria.

In remarks in a Russian TV documentary shown Tuesday, Lavrov said that analysis of U.S. attacks on Islamic State militants in Syria over the past year indicates that the attacks are sparing the IS units that would pose the most threat to the Syrian army and Assad. The U.S. wants to see Assad removed from power.

Lavrov said this means that Washington is effectively "sitting on two chairs."
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Coligny » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:31 pm

wuchan wrote:
France isn't going to give a shit about law and the rest of NATO will back them up. The thing about "international law" is there is no penalty if the majority (of wealthy nations) don't care. The thing people forget bout is France is a major player in the nuclear industry, they reprocess more than half of the world's spent fuel from civilian reactors. France is the adorable red head baby of the UN. Shit, even the russians will back them up.


There it comes...
Franco Russian friendship. Putin stated that the helicarriers sales fiasco was a politician screwup affecting in no way the relationship of the Russians and the French people...
So yeah... You could bet they will have our backs covered.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Coligny » Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:52 pm

Samurai_Jerk wrote:
Coligny wrote:If they spread out with the HQ blown, i don't see the whole "coordination/planning/training" stuff going too well.
One of the comical reason is they want to make them think it's safe. Then blow it to bitz...


The latest attack in Paris was allegedly planned from Belgium, right?


As usual, ask yourself how you could do it but at every verifiable instance replace your ideas/steps with how it was accomplished.


Where to: Get guns, ammo, training, suicide belts (ok no training here).

Next: where do you think is easier to get concert and football ticket or to travel to do a weekendover layout reckon of crowded places on friday
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Samurai_Jerk » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:34 pm

IS releases picture of bomb it says downed Russian plane

The picture showed a yellow can of Schweppes Gold, a flavored soda marketed in Egypt, and what appeared to be other bomb components made of plastic and metal. The group also published a picture of what it said were passports belonging to people who died in the plane crash.

The photos could not be independently verified.

The extremist group, which has a powerful affiliate in the Sinai, had previously claimed to have downed the plane, which was mainly carrying Russian tourists, without offering further details. It said the attack was to avenge Russia's air campaign against the group in Syria.

The group said it "discovered a way to compromise the security at the Sharm el-Sheikh International Airport," without providing further details. It said it initially planned to bring down a plane from one of the countries participating in the U.S.-led coalition that has been striking it in Syria and Iraq. But it says it changed the target to a Russian plane after Moscow began launching airstrikes in Syria in September.

[...]

Bob Ayers, a former CIA officer and an international security analyst, said it would be "easy" to bring down a commercial airliner with a device hidden inside a soda can like the one the Islamic State group says it used against the Metrojet flight.

"To bring down an airplane, you don't need to blow it apart, you just need enough to rupture the pressure hull of the aircraft and the air pressure will do the work for you," he said.

He said a can with a device inside could "blow a really nice hole" in an airplane and was in some ways an ideal size for an attack.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby chibaka » Thu Nov 19, 2015 1:54 pm

Is this guy a security analyst or running some sort of training school for terrorists? Things I learned today I'm not sure I should have..

Bob Ayers, a former CIA officer and an international security analyst, said it would be "easy" to bring down a commercial airliner with a device hidden inside a soda can like the one the Islamic State group says it used against the Metrojet flight.

"To bring down an airplane, you don't need to blow it apart, you just need enough to rupture the pressure hull of the aircraft and the air pressure will do the work for you," he said.

He said a can with a device inside could "blow a really nice hole" in an airplane and was in some ways an ideal size for an attack.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Mock Cockpit » Thu Nov 19, 2015 3:54 pm

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I think it's a bit harder than just making a hole Bob, besides the threat has been around since at least the Bojinka plot. If it was so easy everyone would be doing it.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Tsuru » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:27 pm

The difference between a bomb and structural failure due to metal fatigue is a pressure wave. The latter failure mode you can design for and still make a usable airliner, the first.... nah
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Coligny » Thu Nov 19, 2015 5:55 pm

I think it's even worse... Them plane have over pressure init. So the whole "puncture and let nature do the job"
Not sure it gonna happen...
Yer bomb better damage the structural integrity of the airframe directly...
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Coligny » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:05 pm

Tsuru wrote:The difference between a bomb and structural failure due to metal fatigue is a pressure wave. The latter failure mode you can design for and still make a usable airliner, the first.... nah



I think the A6/F15 on one side and the A10/SU25 are good examples.


In fact... The F15 by himself take both:

Blow one wing off and he can come back anyway, driving funny thought...
Let him age like wine and he shit himself out of the sky...
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Mock Cockpit » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:13 pm

Tsuru wrote:The difference between a bomb and structural failure due to metal fatigue is a pressure wave. The latter failure mode you can design for and still make a usable airliner, the first.... nah
UA 811 wasn't metal fatigue. My point is not that a bomb can't bring down an airliner but that they are tougher to bring down than might commonly be accepted and it's tricky to make a bomb small enough that it can't be detected and big enough to paint the desert with giblets.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Tsuru » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:13 pm

Coligny wrote:I think it's even worse... Them plane have over pressure init. So the whole "puncture and let nature do the job"
Not sure it gonna happen...
Yer bomb better damage the structural integrity of the airframe directly...

Overpressure relief valves are only to account for certain failures of the pressurisation system. A bomb doesn't have to be close to the skin of the aircraft to do what it does.

To illustrate how thin an aircraft hull is: during the ~30 seconds of takeoff roll, the pressurization system increases the air pressure to slightly above ambient to push the doors into their respective door seals to make them structurally integral to the rest of the fuselage, increasing the total stiffness and strength before the aircraft rotates. And then it still bends and twists all over the place under maneuvering and flight loads (turbulence, etc)

There are very few examples of large airliners landing safely after a bombing in flight, but one notably involves a Fokker 100 in Brazil in 1997. A 1m^2 hole was blown into the cabin, but the aircraft landed safely. They just don't build them like that anymore....

Mock Cockpit wrote:
Tsuru wrote:The difference between a bomb and structural failure due to metal fatigue is a pressure wave. The latter failure mode you can design for and still make a usable airliner, the first.... nah
UA 811 wasn't metal fatigue. My point is not that a bomb can't bring down an airliner but that they are tougher to bring down than might commonly be accepted and it's tricky to make a bomb small enough that it can't be detected and big enough to paint the desert with giblets.

Yes it was. The forward cargo door and the adjacent frames were discovered to be a weakness point wrt fatigue in the oldest 747s
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Mock Cockpit » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:21 pm

Tsuru wrote:Overpressure relief valves are only to account for certain failures of the pressurisation system. A bomb doesn't have to be close to the skin of the aircraft to do what it does.

To illustrate how thin an aircraft hull is: during the ~30 seconds of takeoff roll, the pressurization system increases the air pressure to slightly above ambient to push the doors into their respective door seals to make them structurally integral to the rest of the fuselage, increasing the total stiffness and strength before the aircraft rotates. And then it still bends and twists all over the place under maneuvering and flight loads (turbulence, etc)

There are very few examples of large airliners landing safely after a bombing in flight, but one notably involves a Fokker 100 in Brazil in 1997. A 1m^2 hole was blown into the cabin, but the aircraft landed safely. They just don't build them like that anymore....

Mock Cockpit wrote:
Tsuru wrote:The difference between a bomb and structural failure due to metal fatigue is a pressure wave. The latter failure mode you can design for and still make a usable airliner, the first.... nah
UA 811 wasn't metal fatigue. My point is not that a bomb can't bring down an airliner but that they are tougher to bring down than might commonly be accepted and it's tricky to make a bomb small enough that it can't be detected and big enough to paint the desert with giblets.

Yes it was. The forward cargo door and the adjacent frames were discovered to be a weakness point wrt fatigue in the oldest 747s

I'd put this more in the design flaw category personally but ymmv.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Tsuru » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:23 pm

These are not mutually exclusive concepts. A lot of things are discovered and subsequently fixed with service bulletins and airworthiness directives that don't make the evening news, or even the public internet.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Mock Cockpit » Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:34 pm

Tsuru wrote:These are not mutually exclusive concepts. A lot of things are discovered and subsequently fixed with service bulletins and airworthiness directives that don't make the evening news, or even the public internet.

That's why we pay you spannerheads the big bucks! We should anyway.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby chibaka » Thu Nov 19, 2015 10:18 pm

Mock Cockpit wrote: big enough to paint the desert with giblets.


Ouch, to the point, but graphic.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Coligny » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:22 pm

Tsuru wrote:
Coligny wrote:I think it's even worse... Them plane have over pressure init. So the whole "puncture and let nature do the job"
Not sure it gonna happen...
Yer bomb better damage the structural integrity of the airframe directly...

Overpressure relief valves are only to account for certain failures of the pressurisation system. A bomb doesn't have to be close to the skin of the aircraft to do what it does.

To illustrate how thin an aircraft hull is: during the ~30 seconds of takeoff roll, the pressurization system increases the air pressure to slightly above ambient to push the doors into their respective door seals to make them structurally integral to the rest of the fuselage, increasing the total stiffness and strength before the aircraft rotates. And then it still bends and twists all over the place under maneuvering and flight loads (turbulence, etc)

There are very few examples of large airliners landing safely after a bombing in flight, but one notably involves a Fokker 100 in Brazil in 1997. A 1m^2 hole was blown into the cabin, but the aircraft landed safely. They just don't build them like that anymore....

Mock Cockpit wrote:
Tsuru wrote:The difference between a bomb and structural failure due to metal fatigue is a pressure wave. The latter failure mode you can design for and still make a usable airliner, the first.... nah
UA 811 wasn't metal fatigue. My point is not that a bomb can't bring down an airliner but that they are tougher to bring down than might commonly be accepted and it's tricky to make a bomb small enough that it can't be detected and big enough to paint the desert with giblets.

Yes it was. The forward cargo door and the adjacent frames were discovered to be a weakness point wrt fatigue in the oldest 747s


Same reason why submarine doors open outward. You use the pressure differential to help with the sealing.

Also sort of Like the emergency exit doors. (But in reverse here since you want the pressure to unseal them...)
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Russell » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:55 pm

Turkey downs Russian military aircraft near Syria’s border

Turkish military aircraft shot down a Russian jet Tuesday after Turkey says it violated its airspace near the border with Syria.

Russian officials confirmed that a Russian warplane had been shot down but claimed it had been flying over Syria and had not violated Turkish airspace.

The plane was likely shot down “due to shelling from the ground,” the Russian Ministry of Defense said.

The incident could mark a major escalation in the airspace conflict over Syria that could seriously increase friction between Russia and the West since Turkey is a member of NATO.

More

Uh oh...
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Tsuru » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:00 pm

Friendly reminder that for some reason Turkey is still in NATO
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Russell » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:10 pm

Tsuru wrote:Friendly reminder that for some reason Turkey is still in NATO

I wondered about that too.

They do not seem very cooperative lately, isn't it?
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Tsuru » Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:19 pm

Russell wrote:
Tsuru wrote:Friendly reminder that for some reason Turkey is still in NATO

I wondered about that too.

They do not seem very cooperative lately, isn't it?

Repression of free press and progressive civilians, ostensible subversion of democratic principles to further the ruling AK party's own goals... Erdogan is determined to have himself crowned emperor of all the Turks, wherever they may be (and I mean that in the broadest of terms).

If Turkey wanted to join NATO today, they would not be eligible for membership.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Coligny » Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:29 am

Tsuru wrote:If Turkey wanted to join NATO today, they would not be eligible for membership.


Tssss... It's the easiest club to entre evur... We spend our time joining and leaving...

But seems the rule "not be communist" haz been replaced by "not be mooslim"
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Coligny » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:53 am

Russell wrote:Turkey downs Russian military aircraft near Syria’s border

Turkish military aircraft shot down a Russian jet Tuesday after Turkey says it violated its airspace near the border with Syria.

Russian officials confirmed that a Russian warplane had been shot down but claimed it had been flying over Syria and had not violated Turkish airspace.

The plane was likely shot down “due to shelling from the ground,” the Russian Ministry of Defense said.

The incident could mark a major escalation in the airspace conflict over Syria that could seriously increase friction between Russia and the West since Turkey is a member of NATO.

More

Uh oh...


Basically they are shooting down the guys flying with us ....

What do we need to do for their monkey brain to get it ?
Link Russia -again- with the Normandie-Niemen squadron ?
Will confuse the shit out of those carpet shaggers to see planes with the Red Star and the French roundel (plus playfull as they are the Russian are going to stick a cross of Lorraine too)
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby matsuki » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:14 pm

Tsuru wrote:
Russell wrote:
Tsuru wrote:Friendly reminder that for some reason Turkey is still in NATO

I wondered about that too.

They do not seem very cooperative lately, isn't it?

Repression of free press and progressive civilians, ostensible subversion of democratic principles to further the ruling AK party's own goals... Erdogan is determined to have himself crowned emperor of all the Turks, wherever they may be (and I mean that in the broadest of terms).

If Turkey wanted to join NATO today, they would not be eligible for membership.


They can't do anything about it because of the importance of the nato bases in Turkey, and the fact that outside of Egypt they have the biggest airforce in the region.
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Re: JAL 787 on fire !!!! OMG WTF BBQ...

Postby Tsuru » Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:43 pm

NATO bases which the US alone pays king Erdogan upwards of 2 billion a year for just to be allowed continued usage. Personnel stationed there and passing through is overtly hated and harassed by the locals.

There are some rumors the USAF is leaving Incirlik and going to Cyprus.
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Joined: Tue Jan 14, 2003 9:08 am
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