is it worth getting a mac just for video editing?

[kotatsuneko]

hi all =^^=

i still have a pile of dv tapes from my time in Japan, and was hoping before we go back, to finally get them on to dvd after some editing etc.

i guess the quality won`t be brilliant as they were taken with a dv sharp viewcam which i`m hoping to update in the future.

i know lots of people here use macs for dv video work, but is it simply because you happen to be a mac user in general, or is the process that much better than if you were using a pc?

i`m after a simple package to use with extra features if i need them..

wouldnt be after a desktop as that would be hell to carry back over, so are the apple laptops just as good and if so any paticular reccomendations?

cheers, and I hope things are working out well for everyone..

[Caustic Saint]

i know lots of people here use macs for dv video work, but is it simply because you happen to be a mac user in general, or is the process that much better than if you were using a pc?

i`m after a simple package to use with extra features if i need them..

It's better on a Mac because it all just works. Everything is integrated - firewire and iMovie especially.

iMovie is a great little app to cut your teeth on. I made the FG Party Video (in my site's movies section) with iMovie. All the editing, titling, transitions and effects were done in that one, free program.

If you outgrow it's limitations, you can move up to Final Cut Express, and even up to Final Cut Pro if you want to hang with the big boys like Pongi and Sparkle.

The only real decision is which Mac to get?

[GuyJean]

Ditto on what Caustic and Pongi said; No other choice for free video editing software and computer, IMO.. It just works.

GJ

[electrocat]

another ditto.. it just works. you will be editing your video in no time using imovie.

[mr. sparkle]

Hi Kotatsuneko
Join Us .

I am one of the pod people, for sure (iPod that is).
I grew up huffin' Apple fumes, so Mac is all I know.
With that in mind:

YES, get yourself a portable Mac for video editing, that way, you can do it anywhere you like. If you have the extra cash, go for a Powerbook over an iBook because you can work with a dual desktop. That is, if you have a Cinema Display at home, you can use it for extending your desktop real estate. You should also get yourself a FireWire drive to put the rather large QuickTime files you will generate making digital video.

If you've never edited video before, iMovie is pretty fun and easy to operate. As is iDVD for basic authoring and burning DVDs for family and friends.

Final Cut Express is a little monster and will do most of what Final Cut Pro will do, unless you want to do a few advanced things, like crazy fx (like those in my book Rob pointed out) or working with HDTV. It's very cheap too.

If you've got the cash, go with FCP. You'll be alble to do anything the bad boys can do with an Avid Media Composer (the aging granddaddy of computer based video editors called "NLEs"). Final Cut Pro "HD" - the current version - also comes with Apple Soundtrack for making sound beds for your videos, royalty free. You get LiveType which makes it easy to make cool animated typography and is a 2D compositing app in its own right. You also get Compressor for making great looking MPEG 2 encodes for DVD Studio Pro 3 and for MPEG 4 web video.

FCP HD also integrates with DVD Studio Pro 3, LiveType, Soundtrack and the new app called "Motion" which is AWESOME. So, you can make little changes in these apps and they'll update in FCP.

As an aside, I was one of the first batch of people outside of Apple to have been trained on the new app, "Motion". Although I can't talk specifically about it--trust me--at $299 it's freakin' awesome!

What the guys didn't mention is the overall ease of use Macs offer. PC users can adapt to "the Mac way" quite easily. In fact, Apple has produced a series of videos to help you along the way.

Of course, you've got this other exciting music making App called "Garage Band" which is so killer, you'll have a hard time keeping your hands off of it.

These apps all have what I call "Onion" appeal. That is, you can get started working with the apps on a basic level really fast. But you can peel back the layers of the apps to do more sophisticated things, when you're ready to. It's a cool thing, really.

I couldn't live w/o my Powerbook!

[Caustic Saint]

YES, get yourself a portable Mac for video editing, that way, you can do it anywhere you like. If you have the extra cash, go for a Powerbook over an iBook because you can work with a dual desktop. That is, if you have a Cinema Display at home, you can use it for extending your desktop real estate.

This isn't entirely the domain of the PowerBooks anymore. It's not sanctioned by Apple, but there's a nice little firmware hack that enable dual-monitor support in many iBook models. It works on all iBook G4s, and any G3 with more than 16MB of video memory.

I ran it on my iBook G4 the day I got it and it works like a charm. You can mirror the display or drive a second monitor. I find it's most useful for running movies out to the TV while leaving the iBook screen dedicated to computer stuff. Maybe someday I'll pick up a second monitor and put the hack to really good use.

[mr. sparkle]

OK cool. Nice to know you can get dual monitors.

Does the iBook have a cardbus slot? These are useful for gaining an extra FW or FW 800 port(s) for additional drives or your camera. FW 800 rocks!

[Caustic Saint]

OK cool. Nice to know you can get dual monitors.

Does the iBook have a cardbus slot? These are useful for gaining an extra FW or FW 800 port(s) for additional drives or your camera. FW 800 rocks!

Nope. The only recent tweak to the iBook line is the option of getting the 14" model with a superdrive.

I need extra FW ports though, but hate the prices I keep seeing for hubs everywhere. The going rate seems to be $60-70 on this side of the world. Ouch! (Though a certain somebody did say he had a spare when I was in Tokyo last time.... )

[kotatsuneko]

hey! thanks so much for the helpful replies!

Pongi dono, ^^ you living sunshine babe.. i take it thats a yes, then? cheers for the book tip off too !¬¬!

Caustic, thats one hell of a good argument to do some shopping around will have to check out your movies.. ta for the links, will be good viewing am sure!

Guy (still loving that tag...) & Electro..those magic words.. sooo persuasive ^^

Ultra, thanks for that tech breakdown and advice dude! i currently have a semi-leet deck (p4 2.4, 1.5 gig ram, 240 gigs of hd space on 2hds w/8meg buffers, audigy platinum with breakout box, firewire, 2x dvd burners 2x + 8x)

a mate just gave me his old p4 2 gig vaio in return for a favour, but after seeing him mess with some footage on his new apple laptop my jaw dropped at how easy things seemed.. thanks also for the advice on the models themselves..

i want to spend time creatively not getting frustrated which is what happened when i tried editing on the pc so far (seemed like it was a p1 rather than p4..)

heya Mr Sparkle , yeh this whole apple thing is looking like a good complement to the pcs.. GreaT breakdown on the software side.. even going into music.. very kind of you! was thinking of doing something about background noise etc so will look up Garage.. Must feed Motion to Google later!

thanks again to everyone, looks like i gots to hit tcr!

[Caustic Saint]

Caustic, thats one hell of a good argument to do some shopping around will have to check out your movies.. ta for the links, will be good viewing am sure!

The Party vid was done in iMovie. The Sumo ones I did in Final Cut Express, but they're just basic clips. Cut your teeth on iMovie and decide if you really need to move up. Some people stick with it because it's just so damned easy.

heya Mr Sparkle , yeh this whole apple thing is looking like a good complement to the pcs.. GreaT breakdown on the software side.. even going into music.. very kind of you! was thinking of doing something about background noise etc so will look up Garage

Just remember, you get GarageBand (along with iMovie and iDVD) free with your new Mac.

[kotatsuneko]

heh, they give you *free* stuff too?! sweet =^^=

[Caustic Saint]

heh, they give you *free* stuff too?! sweet =^^=

Yup. Check out the specs on the PowerBooks and iBooks. You get different sets of software with each one.

[Deckard]

<snicker>

Bicycles with training wheels just work right out of the box too. However, I would feel kinda foolish talking about how easy it is to ride a bike with training wheels.

Just like a bike without training wheels, a PC can be much more versatile and useful than a Mac if you bother to invest just a little bit of time to understand how it works. And you can choose whatever hardware you like, whatever software you like, and its way cheaper for much better performance if you do it right. Since you've already got the hardware, I'd pick a good piece of software, read the manual and get to editing.

However, a bike with training wheels will still get you to the combini if that's the only mode of transportation you can master.

[GuyJean]

Just like a bike without training wheels, a PC can be much more versatile and useful than a Mac if you bother to invest just a little bit of time to understand how it works. And you can choose whatever hardware you like, whatever software you like, and its way cheaper for much better performance if you do it right. Since you've already got the hardware, I'd pick a good piece of software, read the manual and get to editing.

However, a bike with training wheels will still get you to the combini if that's the only mode of transportation you can master.

Great. A PC vs Mac battle.

Solution: use both.

GJ

[kotatsuneko]

heh thats just what i intend to do =^^=

now if Lacie could just get off their asses and actually get round to delivering some terrabyte "bigger discs" to the uk then i could get round to dumping the raw footage...

as for figuring out "how a pc works"... this is the 4th deck i have custom built for myself fyi.. i just want some stress free creative software to use for dv, and from the results by the talented people here, it seems clear to me that i need a mac to use time creatively rather than wasting it on wintel apps that crash or dont use the hardware effectively

btw right now i`m wearing a faux Pongi dono hat for emphasis

any chance of a double sided Pongi/GuyJean T shirt btw ?

[GuyJean]

Kots,

I have a feeling you'll enjoy editing with a Mac, on the whole, more than what you've experienced on PC.. I could be wrong, but I have a feeling..

Generally, I mutter "That's smart" more than "This fucking piece of shit" when I work on my Mac.. Just my experience, mind you. Could be that I'm used to Macs; because I enjoy them more; cuz I use them more; cuz I enjoy them more; cuz I use them.....

any chance of a double sided Pongi/GuyJean T shirt btw ?

Hey. Not a bad idear..

GJ

[mr. sparkle]

k,
The other benefit that you have using Mac video apps is the support system of human beings that will assist you - because that's what they enjoy doing. You can ask GJ, Rob or myself anything about FCP or FCXpress as we are all super-users of the product. The online community for Mac video heads is widespread and very helpful. In the UK? There is a fantastic FCP User Group in London run by Rick Young who can provide you local support and answers to your Q's.

http://www.macworld.co.uk/ukfcug/

Rick reviews FCP here: http://www.macworld.co.uk/ukfcug/features/fcp4review.cfm

The other users in your area can be very helpful and can even bail you out of tough situations. I know of no such human support system for video editing on the PC side of things. Avid, Premiere, Pinnacle Liquid, Sony Vegas WISHES that they had this kind of passionate (read: rabid) user/fan base. They don't--no WAY.

Here are some sites for you:

http://www.fcpworld.com - my own FCP video site
http://www.creativecow.net/index.php?forumid=8
http://www.kenstone.net/cgi/discussions/general.cgi
http://www.uemforums.com/2pop/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php
http://www.postforum.com/forums/list.php?f=37
http://www.lafcpug.org/phorum/list.php?f=1

AND the forum for your boys in the UK:
http://www.macworld.co.uk/forums/forums.cfm?forum=5&tz=420

Feel the LOVE baby!

BTW, you don't need to spend excess money on a LaCie drive. Just buy a raw drive, like a 300GB Hitachi and slam it into a cheap FireWire drive enclosure. WAY cheaper.

I have this one:
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=17-155-209&depa=0

I've tested it using a cheap Maxtor 5400RPM drive and it works flawlessly. I suggest 7200RPM drives from Hitachi though.

If you simply MUST use a PC. I suggest Adobe Premiere Pro. It's OK, I guess. Any versions prior to "PRO" are substandard IMHO. The upside is that it integrates well with Adobe After Effects - the genius compositing app I just love. Sony VEGAS is also doing well on the PC side of things - and even has some features that FCP does not - not bad!

You won't go there if you buy a Mac though. GarageBand alone is like CRACK. All the apps that apple sells are simple, fun and effective. Some, as Caustic pointed out, are free. They call it the iLife. - I know...oh brotha'! They are really cool though: iDVD, GarageBand, iTunes, iCal, Mail, and iChat AV (a videophone!).

Here's a nice article featuring a couple of your countrymen:
http://www.apple.com/uk/pro/video/groundforce/

BTW, I am a FCP instructor at a Trade School called BAVC - http://www.bavc.org - so please excuse the bias. Before I used Macs though, I was a video editor from the old school, so I know what I like.

[mr. sparkle]

<snicker>

Bicycles with training wheels just work right out of the box too.

So you are saying Macs are computers with training wheels Deckard?
Oh brother... You have no idea what you are talking about if you are talking about creating film or video. Ask Walter Murch. He is probably the world's most famous film editor and he uses Macs and Final Cut Pro. The best uses the best. He could use an PC or NT based Avid if he wanted to. But he didn't want to when he cut "Cold Mountain".

I'll make the car analogy: Any car can get you from point A to point B. But would you rather make the ride in a Benz doing 200 km/hr on the AutoBahn or in a VW doing 100 km/hr on a bumpy side road? Some hardware - software combinations are simply elegant - Macs and FCP work exceedingly well together. The best on the PC side is arguably the Avid D|S or discreet Smoke. These are units that cost in the $100K range if you want to do any SD or HD. They are sort of like Ferraris. Fast, clean, elegant but EXPENSIVE. It will be a long time before the tech wizards give us the power of those kinds of enterprise level tools.

So guys like Walter would rather buy 4 Benz's and have lots of power and plenty of room to do different functions required in the editing process: capturing | organizing | editing | screening dailies | burning DVDs for approval processes, etc. With the same pile of cash and to do the same thing 4 Ferrari's are going to be out of the budget, right? So would Walter only buy 1 Ferrari instead of 4 Benz's? Nope. Instead of 1 or 2 Avids, Walter got 4 FCP workstations. They ran full-time and the workflow was extremely fluid. Caustic may be interested to know that the guys even had cheap iBooks in the flow and Walter was so cool that he let the assistants cut a few scenes this way.

Walter cut 600,000 feet of film for Cold Mountain. He used Final Cut Pro 3.0.2 and using the Aurora Igniter Video Capture Card.

Just like a bike without training wheels, a PC can be much more versatile and useful than a Mac if you bother to invest just a little bit of time to understand how it works.

What's this hooey about "training wheels" Deckard? Macs are computers that ROCK. You've obviously never used one. Yer probably just jealous...


Liquid Cooled Dual G5 - Yeah Baby!

And trust me: "a PC can be much more frustrating and useless" when you try to edit video with it, even if you do know what you are doing. Ever troubleshoot an PC based NLE Deckard? It ain't fun. I have never had a jam I couldn't get out of on my own. Even when I was a greenhorn.

And you can choose whatever hardware you like

So, we're talking about video editing and computer hardware/software choices in this thread. So are you sure you know what you're talking about? Nope. You have a couple of pro choices for video editing on a Mac: FCP or Avid, the only choices you'll want to make as a pro, since they are the only programs used for film and television in the pro realm. If you move to LA, they won't ask you if you have skills in Premiere or Vegas.

True, you have more choices on the PC side, but would you want to use them for your everyday job? Not for me, right now, anyway. Sure, k doesn't need professional editing tools so PC programs would work just fine, in most cases with the right set up. Semi-pros might consider Premiere Pro or Vegas. You know, corporate, events and wedding video guys.

-And you've been using that training wheels argument since high school. It just doesn't wash bro.

If you need hardware for video editing: FireWire Drives, Video Capture Cards, Video Display Cards, RAM, FireWire CardBus, RAID Arrays - whatever - in general, they are usually cross platform and if not, priced very similarly to PC video editing related hardware. A Radeon 9800 is a Radeon 9800, is it not? In many cases you can use PC RAM chips in your Mac, at least, I've done this in the past with no ill effects. I configure my drives and install them in enclosures and inside my computer. At Fry's the PC guys grab the same Hitachi drive I do, for sure.

In some cases, Mac hardware is cheaper. In fact, I'd argue that Macs drove the price downward in the case of SD and HDTV video capture cards. Grant Petty at BlackMagic Designs (who was at the time, primarily a Mac based Capture Card manufacturer - 1st to market with a OS X capable board) threw down the gauntlet at last year's IBC Conference by releasing a HDTV capture card at $2000. The lower end price point one year earlier (the AJA KonaHD) was $11,000! For BOTH Mac and Windows - the SAME card, ya dig?



This year? The price point is $999! Grant also offers a new board for Windows users at the same price point. So lucky you! Because of this Mac hardware developer, Joe 6-pack Premiere Pro guy can do HD on his Windbloze box. Note that he doesn't charge less than the Mac one.

If are talking about the computer itself then PCs are generally less expensive. That you cannot deny. But again, you get what you pay for in the Benz vs. VW comparison. Do you want to edit in the elegant UI of FCP or do you want clunky-ass Premiere? And of course, don't start firing the Ghz rivalry at me. It's all relative and difficult to compare:



A dual Mac 1.8 can't be much more than a full blown Dell, no? Premiere Pro is a bit cheaper than FCP, but man, it's a really krappy ride. The UI is really the same as it always has been - clunky. Time is money and it adds up quick with my rate!

Other software?
Adobe Photoshop CS for Macintosh $649
Adobe Photoshop CS for Windows $649

Adobe After Effects Pro 6.5 for Macintosh $999
Adobe After Effects 6.5 Pro for Windows $999

Boris RED for Mac $1595
Boris RED for Windows $1595

My point? When all is said and done, you are paying relatively the same price for comparable setups whether your going Mac or PC and are dealing with pro level video systems. It makes very little difference in the end.

Since you've already got the hardware, I'd pick a good piece of software, read the manual and get to editing.

His current hardware may not be able to bring the noise. We need to know the exact spec depending on his choice of programs - you have to make sure you have enough CPU power, FW slots, drive speed. And for GOD'S SAKE, do NOT f-around with Avid Free for Mac OR PC. That will totally mess up your 'puter. Just get a little Mac and fool around with iMovie to start. Why not? I've rather have both a Mac and a PC rather than just PCs. I actually would not mind having a PC to crunch my AE renders or do my 3D stuff.

However, a bike with training wheels will still get you to the combini if that's the only mode of transportation you can master.

You're a funny guy. Now go crunch some spreadsheets pal. We got movies to make.

[Caustic Saint]

You're a funny guy. Now go crunch some spreadsheets pal. We got movies to make.

Great post, Sparkle!

[GuyJean]

...... !!!!!!!......

DV is where Mr. Sparkle sparkles.. Believe me, I learned this long ago.

GJ