Massive earthquake hits Indonesia, Tsunami kills thousands.

[Steve Bildermann]

GG. Very relieved to hear you are all ok. Gutsy move - hats off to you.

W-o-w way to start 2005. Kinda hard to top next year though

Steve

[vir-jin]

[nullpointer]

Google has put up a list of sites http://www.google.com/tsunami_relief.html where donations are being accepted.

[ramchop]

US scientists said the quake that set off the wall of water had moved tectonic plates beneath the Indian Ocean by up to 30 metres, causing the Earth to wobble on its axis and permanently shortening the day by a fraction of a second.

Wonder how small that fraction is

The region has seen huge killer waves before, including one when Krakatoa erupted off southern Sumatra in 1883, but Indian Ocean countries have no tsunami warning system.

I thought this was a once in 700 years event.

[Samurai_Jerk]

BTW, Is saw on the news last night that the Atlantic Ocean doesn't have a warning system either. They were saying a similar quake near the Canary Island would slam the East Coast of the US hard.

[Steve Bildermann]

BTW, Is saw on the news last night that the Atlantic Ocean doesn't have a warning system either.

Perhaps because....

Why are there no earthquake generated tsunamis located in the atlantic ocean?

[GuyJean]

The region has seen huge killer waves before, including one when Krakatoa erupted off southern Sumatra in 1883, but Indian Ocean countries have no tsunami warning system.

I thought this was a once in 700 years event.

McCreery, the masterful scientist sensei, mentioned 700 years in his interview posted earlier in this thread, but since then I've heard scientists say a tsunami of this magnitude happens once every 300 to 500 years... So, ya got me.(I think they don't know, but don't tell anyone. )

Did anyone notice the moon was full on December 26th? I haven't heard anything mentioned about the affects the moon has on the ocean..

(BTW, I love the name Krakatoa.. Yeah!! Fuckin' Karakatoa, baby!.. OK. Done.)

U.N.: Asia Tsunami Alert System by End 2005
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/12/29/quake.alert.system.reut/index.html

"The problem is not so much the technical system, but the (communication) network ... There is a great deal of work to be done in raising awareness of coastal communities," he told a news conference.

The huge waves, which killed at least 80,000 people, with Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India and Thailand the worst hit, took between one and six hours to reach their shores.

This would have been enough for preventive action had the earthquake occurred in the Pacific Ocean, by far the most seismically active of the world's seas, because both the United States and Japan were well prepared, Briceno said.

Japan has already offered to make its technology and experience available to other Asian countries, he said.

The Indian Ocean, with no major tsunami in over 100 years, was not the only vulnerable area. The Caribbean and the Mediterranean, both on fault lines, were also at risk.

"Immediately after the tragedy we received concerns from the Caribbean, and even the Mediterranean and Europe and Northern Africa have the same threat," said Briceno, a Colombian.

A U.N. conference on disaster reduction next month in the Japanese city of Kobe, where some 6,400 were killed in a quake in 1995, was (?) 'is', maybe?)) an opportunity to start preparations.

GJ

[dimwit]

BTW, Is saw on the news last night that the Atlantic Ocean doesn't have a warning system either.

Perhaps because....

Why are there no earthquake generated tsunamis located in the atlantic ocean?

All true to a degree, but there is the same problem of complacency in the Atlantic. While, with the exception of the Caribbean, subduction zone earthquakes don't occur, there is the potential for catastrophic slope failure inducted by volcanic eruptions. The Canary Islands in particular, but many of the Caribbean and Mid-Atlantic as well are vulnerable. If slope failure were to occur all at once there is the possiblity of a mega-tsunami (100 meters or more higher). The rationalization for not having a warning system in the Atlantic is that this sort of tsunami occurs only once every several hundreds years (sound familar?) so there is no point in having one.

The BBC horizon series did a good show based on this idea

One hopes that after the Indian Ocean tsunami that there would a reassessment of this situation.

[dimwit]

The region has seen huge killer waves before, including one when Krakatoa erupted off southern Sumatra in 1883, but Indian Ocean countries have no tsunami warning system.

I thought this was a once in 700 years event.

McCreery, the masterful scientist sensei, mentioned 700 years in his interview posted earlier in this thread, but since then I've heard scientists say a tsunami of this magnitude happens once every 300 to 500 years... So, ya got me.(I think they don't know, but don't tell anyone. )

Did anyone notice the moon was full on December 26th? I haven't heard anything mentioned about the affects the moon has on the ocean..

Krakatoa was an collasping volcano, Sumatra was a subduction zone earthquake so they are different types of events. Krakatoa produced waves up to 30 meters in height but the epicenter as quite small the damage more local, the Sumatra earthquake occurred along a 600 mile line creating much wider-spread carnage.

The frequency of earthquake events is largely guesswork as the full geologic record of the area is not complete. Unlike North America, geologic mapping especially of the near subsurface is not been done. The result is that frequency of earthquakes often relays on eyewitness accounts, which going 700 years are not exactly reliable. Furthermore, to figure out the frequency of an event you have to go back several thousand years, and past frequency does not tell you when the next event is likely to be.

As for the effect of full moon/new moon on earthquake frequency. There is not very much good scientific data to support this belief. A perusal of the web shows the proponents of this belief tend to be believers in cosmic powers and other crank science.

http://www.simplecodeworks.com/quakes/Quakes.htm

Looking at the data here doesn't show very much correlation at all.

[Blah Pete]

Great reporting GG.
I think the advantage that Phucket has is that the ground rises up from the beach in most places. Places like Sri Lanka are flatter.

I saw a Sri Lankan guy on CNN last night who now lives in the US. His family home of generations in right on the beach. He said he had never heard of a tsunami when growing up and as far as he knew neither hdd his father. A little bit of eductaion would have gone a long way here.

[GuyJean]

The result is that frequency of earthquakes often relays on eyewitness accounts, which going 700 years are not exactly reliable. Furthermore, to figure out the frequency of an event you have to go back several thousand years, and past frequency does not tell you when the next event is likely to be.

Yeah. I think they were estimating from events recorded in history. Which going back that far, can get sketchy.. I'd say it's safe to say once every 300 to 700 years.. Or 'doesn't happen very often'..

As for the effect of full moon/new moon on earthquake frequency. There is not very much good scientific data to support this belief. A perusal of the web shows the proponents of this belief tend to be believers in cosmic powers and other crank science.
http://www.simplecodeworks.com/quakes/Quakes.htm
Looking at the data here doesn't show very much correlation at all.

I was talking about the effects the moon has on the tides]http://tokyodv.com/tdvimages/tsunamiANI.gif[/img]

GJ

[dimwit]

I was talking about the effects the moon has on the tides]http://tokyodv.com/tdvimages/tsunamiANI.gif[/img]

GJ

Opps! Sorry misread the post. I getting into my 'mind in neutral' New Years thinking pattern. I have no idea if it was a high tide at the time of the tsunami nor do I know the tidal range in Phuket/ Sri Lanka or any of the other affected area (though, the information in undoubted available). The full moon, of course, would have an effect especially if the tide was high. Sorry

[GuyJean]

Sorry misread the post. I getting into my 'mind in neutral' New Years thinking pattern.

It's a good way to be this time of year. Let's hope for an 'uneventful' New Years...

The full moon, of course, would have an effect especially if the tide was high. Sorry

No worries. I enjoy friendly scientific banter..

GJ

[AssKissinger]

http://www.gethiroshima.com/en/gethiroshima/Hype/2004/12/28/tsunami

12/29/04 Miko Munoz wrote:
I am now in Phuket!!! I was at the beach when the tidal wave hit!!! I am ok and safe. I came with Sammy and James. It was crazy! I will be back in Japan on the 5th. I am at ground zero. This place looks like a war zone.
MIKE

[chris56789]

[dimwit]

[dimwit]

HTF do you expect them to issue tsunami warnings?

Is it just me or does anyone else get the feeling that India is consistly underreporting the number of death that have occurred there? They report only 7000 deaths but outside observers seem to report at least twice that many. What gives?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=371069

[GomiGirl]

Am only on-line once a day as I am too busy with elephant rides, swimming and drinking mai-tais by the pool. But I wanted to update on some of the things happening around ground zero.

Today we walked around the worst hit area, Patong Beach. Many of the videos on the net are of this area. If you look at a map you can see it is a horseshoe shaped bay and the water seemed to have been funneled towards the main strip infront of the beach.. boats inside restaurants, cars that looked like they had been tossed across the street, tables and bedding in hotel pools, beach chairs all crumpled and strewn around, all the shops etc full of debris. It is a sobering place to know that only a few days ago many people died right where we were walking.

I do have a great photo of the starbucks on the main street. But the clean-up is going at full steam. Truck-loads of laborers arriving, back-hoes and trucks removing piles of debris and it was all co-ordinated well. All the workers seemed cheerful and many waved and said hello as we took photos.

A few shops back the staff are busy moping, sweeping, cleaning off unbroken display shelves and trying to open as soon as possible. In a few days around 70% will be operating again. The hotels on the beach will probably have to be demolished eventhough it is usually only the first floor that has been damaged. On the upper floors everything seems fine so it is a weird sight.

Driving around, any construction sites are abandoned as I suspect all the workers have been redeployed to the clean-up. The unaffected places are booming and the bars are full of the usual suspects of single middle aged men with their young thai "companions". But we have been told that all parties and shows for New Year have been cancelled so we will be having a quiet dinner with the family.

Many people have questioned our decision to come but I am glad we did. Perhaps if the problems involved terrorism, or a typhoon with more on the way, we may have chosen differently. But I have no fear and neither it seems does anybody else we have spoken with.

[jim katta]

just found this...

"Killer waves, then a day on the beach"
By OLINKA KOSTER
31dec04

IT seems almost impossible.

Just days after the tidal wave disaster, one of the devastated beaches was returning to normal yesterday.

On Sunday, Patong Beach was hit by a wall of water that swept into Phuket, claiming at least 120 lives.

Parasols, chairs, and other beach paraphernalia were swept to the top of the tree-lined beach, dragging helpless holidaymakers with them. It was at this beach that six-month-old Melina Heppell, of Perth, disappeared from her father's arms when the huge wave struck.

For some tourists yesterday, however, the tragedy was becoming a memory, albeit a vivid one, as they made the most of the weather and topped up their tans.

http://www.theadvertiser.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,11816699%255E911,00.html

regardless of helping the local economy out or such notions, I think that as a matter of form and human respect, I would not sunbathe on a beach where tens of thousands had just lost their life. I understand the need to move forward and help the economy, but there is something to be said for acknowledging and showing deference to the loss of so much life.

I think the fact that the locals are happily serving foreign visitors only highlights the very tragic fact that the tourism market is all they have to hold on to and they 'must' desperately hold on to it even in the face of disrespecting/ignoring the death all around them of their families.

this world is not as advanced as we'd like to believe it is. the south asian community hardest hit appear to be amongst the most tolerant and good natured people imaginable, because they are eating a lot of crap and taking it on the chin with a relative smile and shrug in many cases. damn. damn.

[jim katta]

[no, that last post wasn't directed at GG, it was about the article and the issue in general. I really like GG a lot based on her online persona. that doesn't change my opinion though.]

[jingai]

Late reply to Neo re: development assistance.
The number you were looking for is here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/us/Economy
United States: Economic aid - donor: $6.9 billion (1997) [2nd of 24]

As I said, Japan surpassed the US as an economic aid donor in the 1990s.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_eco_aid_don
However, the numbers they are using are out of date (1997) and now the USA is #1 again. If you compare aid as a percentage of GDP or per capita, the US doesn't compare well, but in absolute terms we give a lot.

If you're curious about where the US money goes, check this out:
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/30/1860571.gif
A significant chunk does go to S. and Central Asia.

You can see where Japan's money goes, too (and that the total amounts are falling):
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/5/1860382.gif
About a quarter of their aid is going to S. Asia, and half to "other Asia" (China?). No big surprise, but unfortunately a lot of it is dirty money (used to encourage development of rainforests and other exploitation of natural resources.)

[GuyJean]

[GuyJean]

Found these visually interesting in my search for earthquake and tsunami information:

http://www.iris.edu/seismon/


and

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html

Looks like we just had a 5.1 here in Japan.. Did anyone feel it? I didn't..

GJ

[yakinoumiso]

Quake and tsunami kill 6,300

A wall of water up to 10 metres (30 feet) high triggered by the 8.9 magnitude underwater earthquake off the Indonesian
island of Sumatra caused death, chaos and devastation

GJ. Yeah, the tide at the time of the disaster is a good point that I haven't seen reported on. Since the difference between high tide and low tide can be as much as 2.2 m of water (via the straight dope, and I assume that's vertical ft not linear ft), you can bet that that would affect how far a 10 m tsunami pushed into the shore. But I doubt that full moon (or new moon, FTM) would have much of an effect compared to any other time since the difference is less than 20 cm or so. Moreover, I can't imagine that the tide can effect the perceived force of the tsunami. It takes 6 h to go from high tide to low tide, but that 10 m of tsunami came in in about a minute.

[yakinoumiso]

Found these visually interesting in my search for earthquake and tsunami information:

http://www.iris.edu/seismon/

Looks like we just had a 5.1 here in Japan.. Did anyone feel it? I didn't..

GJ

great site...thanks.

[dimwit]

Found these visually interesting in my search for earthquake and tsunami information:

http://www.iris.edu/seismon/

and

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html

GJ

Interesting how the two site varied in terms of the magnitude of the quakes. I wonder if it is a issue with the sensitivity of their equipment. The Kobe Earthquake was also originally given a magnitude of 6.9 but later revised upwards but I have never heard a clear explanation as to why.

[Charles]

Found these visually interesting in my search for earthquake and tsunami information:

http://www.iris.edu/seismon/

and

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/recenteqsww/Quakes/quakes_all.html

GJ

Interesting how the two site varied in terms of the magnitude of the quakes. I wonder if it is a issue with the sensitivity of their equipment. The Kobe Earthquake was also originally given a magnitude of 6.9 but later revised upwards but I have never heard a clear explanation as to why. :?

Beware of asking a question like that when you are around someone like me, who used to work at the USGS as a data analyst. You might get an answer and be bored to death.

The initial magnitude comes from one measurement at one site, usually the WDC in Denver. It takes a while to calculate quake magnitudes with higher accuracy, the resolution improves as more seismometer monitoring sites contribute their data. Resolution is improved most by the sites farthest from the quake, oddly enough. It all has to do with timing measurements and wave propagation, etc. Consult the USGS site if you want the boring details of the physics of seismometry.

[jingai]

[yakinoumiso]

Yet another missied opportunity...

Another missed warning?

The tsunami-warning blame game -- could the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration have done a better job alerting Indian Ocean countries after learning of the earthquake? -- takes a new turn Thursday. The Washington Post reports that the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty Organization, based in Vienna, surely would have picked up the earthquake "but it had no chance to alert governments in the region because its offices were closed for the holidays." In fact, the network doesn't even possess a communication system capable of channeling early warning signals to the region. Should it? Writes the Post: "Bernard Massinon, a French seismologist who serves as scientific adviser to the test ban organization, said the agency's seismic stations -- including eight in Indonesia, Thailand and Sri Lanka -- could technically be linked to an early warning system for earthquakes and tsunamis if member states decided to do it. 'Could we help by providing real-time data from this network?" he said. "The answer should be yes.'"

I haven't seen anything about it, but is there any estimate on how much damage was caused by the actual earthquake itself, as opposed to the tsunami it generated?

[AssKissinger]

Over 200 people on line and over 3,500 hundred views of this thread. I think a lot of guests are coming on here looking for info about missing loved ones.