Haneda vs Narita fight club

[yanpa]

but I hate Narita.

Plenty worse airports (Heathrow comes to mind for some reason ). With the new Skyliner route it's only about 15 minutes further away than Haneda (from western Tokyo at least). And they've started jazzing up some of the departure areas with artsy-fartsy designery stuff, which is more pleasant than the previously predominant "mid-Heisei corporate greige".

Mind you I'd still go for Haneda if I had the option.

I will report back on my AC experience. Like I said, last time it was perfectly normal (at least I don't remember anyone shouting at me and they weren't too stingy with the beer in economy).

[Wibble]

but I hate Narita.

Plenty worse airports (Heathrow comes to mind for some reason ). With the new Skyliner route it's only about 15 minutes further away than Haneda (from western Tokyo at least). And they've started jazzing up some of the departure areas with artsy-fartsy designery stuff, which is more pleasant than the previously predominant "mid-Heisei corporate greige".

Mind you I'd still go for Haneda if I had the option.

I will report back on my AC experience. Like I said, last time it was perfectly normal (at least I don't remember anyone shouting at me and they weren't too stingy with the beer in economy).

I find Haneda far more inconvenient than Narita and annoying lots of flights are moving there. Narita may take 15-20 minutes longer, but it's much easier. Stick your luggage in the rack, drop into a decent seat on an N'EX or Skyliner and relax, rather than fighting with the interchanges to the keikyu or the awful monorail. When I'm with the family, Narita is actually quicker to get to as some idiot decided to install the world's slowest and smallest lifts at Hamamatsucho.

Lots of plans have been mooted for Haneda transport - monorail extension to Shimbashi/Tokyo, JR line from Tokyo via Tamachi, but nothing done yet. Surely a boat service could be faster. Ridiculous they didn't sort the transport out before building the 4th runway. Still, the monorail instantly educates new arrivals to the reality of Japan's futuristic image.

[yanpa]

Well at least the Keikyu line now no longer crosses the Daiichi Keihin at street level... it was always amusing watching the "airport express" trains block 3~4 lanes of traffic on a major arterial highway.

For me, changing at Shinagawa to the Keikyu is no more or less convenient than changing at Nippori for the Skyliner. I guess it depends on where you're travelling from/who you're travelling with.

[kurogane]

Still, the monorail instantly educates new arrivals to the reality of Japan's futuristic image.

Sort of like the old Anaheim Disneyland monorail???? EEEEK. I used to laugh at the monorail that ran to Kobe airport. The Express stopped at one less station. It was like an amusement park ride. And the Osaka one wasn't all that much better.

Some good points about relative convenience and access, though. Any luggage beyond a carry-on is bagged and tagged by the ABC luggage delivery boys, so trolling through stations isn't much of a problem. I think I'll try Haneda once, anyways. Busyness Klass for 2700 CAD seems worth a try at least once.

Any votes on Keikyu vs. the Monorail? They both end up at Yamanote stations do they not? I'll only be going as far as Tokyo or Ueno for a sleepover stop, so it seems either will do.

[yanpa]

Still, the monorail instantly educates new arrivals to the reality of Japan's futuristic image.

Sort of like the old Anaheim Disneyland monorail???? EEEEK. I used to laugh at the monorail that ran to Kobe airport. The Express stopped at one less station. It was like an amusement park ride. And the Osaka one wasn't all that much better.

Some good points about relative convenience and access, though. Any luggage beyond a carry-on is bagged and tagged by the ABC luggage delivery boys, so trolling through stations isn't much of a problem. I think I'll try Haneda once, anyways. Busyness Klass for 2700 CAD seems worth a try at least once.

Any votes on Keikyu vs. the Monorail? They both end up at Yamanote stations do they not? I'll only be going as far as Tokyo or Ueno for a sleepover stop, so it seems either will do.

As broad as it is long, I guess. Unless you're going direct to the monorail terminus at Tamachi. However the Keikyu line runs through onto the Asakusa subway line which gets you directly to the east Ginza/east Tokyo station area, and might be less hassle. But why not try both?

[Wibble]

For me, changing at Shinagawa to the Keikyu is no more or less convenient than changing at Nippori for the Skyliner. I guess it depends on where you're travelling from/who you're travelling with.

Fair point. And the real winners are those coming from central areas that can just jump in a taxi. I'm just being selfish because of where I live; for me, nothing beats the early morning N’EXs that run the length of chuo line direct and giving some extra no stress sleep. And with the kids or luggage, both Haneda options are a pain for changes.

Still, the monorail instantly educates new arrivals to the reality of Japan's futuristic image.

Sort of like the old Anaheim Disneyland monorail???? EEEEK. I used to laugh at the monorail that ran to Kobe airport. The Express stopped at one less station. It was like an amusement park ride. And the Osaka one wasn't all that much better.

Some good points about relative convenience and access, though. Any luggage beyond a carry-on is bagged and tagged by the ABC luggage delivery boys, so trolling through stations isn't much of a problem. I think I'll try Haneda once, anyways. Busyness Klass for 2700 CAD seems worth a try at least once.

Any votes on Keikyu vs. the Monorail? They both end up at Yamanote stations do they not? I'll only be going as far as Tokyo or Ueno for a sleepover stop, so it seems either will do.

Pretty much of a muchness. With the new bit of line the keikyu takes about the same amount time from Tokyo. But I prefer the monorail for the better luggage room and it's a bit more "fun". It's has always reminded me of a rubbish roller coaster too, and you get to see a bit of the airport. I did get stuck on it once during an earthquake when the emergency brakes shut it down on a banked curve; it was a bit of an interesting feeling being shaken around leaning over a river.

That direct flight, has to be a good option versus dealing with US immigration and changing flights. These are the seats on the 767 http://www.airlinereporter.com/2014/03/ ... es-haneda/ they are fine, but ANA will probably replace it with a 787 eventually when they get more delivered, which have these seats http://www.ana.co.jp/promotion/b787/sp/ ... long_a.jpg

[yanpa]

Come to think of it, I've never taken the monorail all the way to Haneda. Must try that one day just for the hell of it.

[Samurai_Jerk]

It really all depends on where you live, right? I'm on the Asakusa Line so I have direct trains to both airports. However, there are more direct trains per hour to Haneda and it's about 25 minutes quicker to get there so it's a bit more convenient. The comfort of the N'EX and Skyliner aren't a factor either because using them is actually less convenient than using the regular train. I do sometimes cab it to/from Ueno and use the Skyliner when I'm not in the mood though. As for the airports themselves, I prefer Haneda to Narita because everything generally seems to go more quickly but maybe that's just chance.

[wagyl]

Unless you're going direct to the monorail terminus at Tamachi.

Correction: Hamamatsucho

I agree with the comments that the monorail and Keikyu are much the same. I usually make the decision based on price and time from where I am coming from, and Keikyu usually wins in that battle.

Another option to consider if you are not intending to stop off in Tokyo except to overnight, is the various expressway buses from either of the airports out to the regional areas. I find it saves having to make decisions as to factoring in the cost of a Tokyo overnight when you are considering flight options, and also I no longer feel limited to flights leaving or arriving in a time period where I can get to or from home on the train.

[Coligny]

is the various expressway buses out to the regional areas.

Just in case you got some sanity left from the flight...

Expressway buses are even worse than commuter aircraft... no leg room, no peanuts, stops at every combini on the road, no way to sleep...

I can't believe this level of dis-service in Japan... Took expressway bus once in Vietnam, even during the day they have 3 lines of semi reclined relaxing pods. 6 hours trip after which I never felt so relaxed...

[wuchan]

I usually drive..... fuck driving to haneda.

[wagyl]

There are obviously expressway buses and expressway buses. Where I am, it is a Hiace Commuter with spacious seats which you book, and the driver will wait in the arrivals hall with a little flag (Kawaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!) and drive you to your genkan, for little more than the train fare and a lot less than the train fare and an overnight business hotel, and quite possibly less than the train fare and courier for the luggage. They also are perfectly willing to do a 3 a.m. pick up so that you can board a morning flight. No complaints about service from me. Usually between two and five passengers.

[Coligny]

Ok, I was speaking on BUS sized highway bus that do Nagoya Tokyo route... Not semi private airport limo-shuttle with on board casino, theatre, coke, booze, stripper pole and happy ending. I ain't no Tony Stark. Even if I call some part of my anatomy the Iron Man from time to time...

[kurogane]

It's has always reminded me of a rubbish roller coaster too, and you get to see a bit of the airport.

Being from Canada, Japanese tend to treat me as a polite somewhat tall and white Third Worlder. The Monorail is the one talking point I can bring up where they can effuviate on their early 20th Century technological superiority and I can laugh inwardly at them for being such delsuionally antedeluvian trogs. And I still get from the airport to where I am going.

I know it's hard when you're there all the time, but having done serious and occasionally Very Hard Time time in 600 person villages in Japanese Kentuckys, I believe the key to the true enjoyment of them and their land is mutual contempt for their Amerikanesque delusions of imperialistic grandeur imbued with a relativistic affection for the genuine nice bits.

Seriously, though..............Monorail................it's feckin 2014...............The Anaheim Disneyland monorail looked tired in 1970.

[yanpa]

Meanwhile... The people in charge of the shower rooms at Narita should be sent to Changi to see how these things should be done properly.

[Coligny]

Meanwhile... The people in charge of the shower rooms at Narita should be sent to Changi to see how these things should be done properly.

Getting a quicky before the flight !? Tentacoo wape ftw i suppose...

[kurogane]

So, anyways, first time landing in Haneda:

Fuck that place rocks. I flew Vancouver-Haneda on the new ANA direct flight in Busyness. VERY old plane (the toilet had working ashtrays), big old style lounge seats with the weird multi leg rest, 2-1-2 configuration, quite empty, so most had 2 seats to themselves. It reminded me of the old Vancouver - Osaka direct CP Air machines, where they turned First into Busyness with the big leather Lazyboys except this was 2014 not 1993. Good food, nice snacks, crap TV that only started working halfway in (maybe it was me???), great service by some obviously seniority laden Dragon Queens, no talent on board at all in any way shape or form, staff or otherwise, and all in all a good option for 10 hours locked in a cigar tube.

My bags were first out (as in both my bags, #1 and #2), I breezed through Immigration and Customs in 10 minutes, went to the end of the terminal for a smoke, F'ed around with my luggage and Kuroneko'ed it, then 2 minutes to the Keikyu and 370 yen and 15 minutes later I was in Samezu. So, landing at 7-ish, I could have been in Tokyo by 7:45 sans the luggage grope. Impressive stuff.

Fuck that airport was hot last night. So, Haneda wins by a chokeout.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Delta may drop Minneapolis flights to Tokyo

Delta Air Lines said it would be forced to end direct service between Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport and Tokyo if a proposal to alter airport operations in Japan moves forward.

The Japanese and U.S. governments are discussing a proposal to open Tokyo International Airport in Haneda to more carriers, moving traffic away from the Tokyo metro’s other airport in Narita, said Delta Special Council Ben Hirst.

Delta’s daily non-stop flight from Minneapolis goes to and from Narita International Airport. If that airport loses connecting flights to other destinations, Delta would end its Minnesota flights to Japan altogether.

[...]

Delta wants Japan to either keep its two airports operating at status quo or completely open up Tokyo International Airport in Haneda to everyone. Hirst said Haneda could accommodate Delta as a hub.

[Samurai_Jerk]

American Airlines begins service from L.A. to Tokyo’s Haneda Airport

After a year-long tussle over the route with Delta Air Lines, American Airlines launched its first flight from Los Angeles to Tokyo’s Haneda International Airport Thursday night.

The route, flown using a Boeing 787-8 Dreamliner, departed Los Angeles International Airport at 6 p.m. local time and will continue on a once-per-day schedule.

American Airlines secured the rights to fly into Haneda Airport last summer when Delta gave up it’s Seattle to Haneda route after the company determined it wasn’t commercially feasible to provide daily service year-round.

[kurogane]

First Class Cabins Are Setting Off Air Rage, Study Finds
http://fortune.com/2016/05/03/air-rage- ... ass-study/

An interesting preliminary study that suggests, albeit statistically, that the more things change, the more they come back to Merton and Runciman.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_deprivation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_K._Merton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Run ... of_Doxford

[Samurai_Jerk]

Glad I recently used most of my Delturd SkyMiles for a R/T ticket to NYC.

United Airlines' San Francisco Success Forces Change at Tokyo Narita

The growth of United's (UAL) San Francisco hub, the most dramatic hub buildup of the current decade, has a corollary -- a change in the airline's strategy at Tokyo's Narita International Airport.

For half a century, Narita has been the primary gateway for U.S. passengers to Asia, who would connect to flights to destinations throughout the continent.

But as the big three U.S. airlines add non-stop service to Asia, particularly to China and partially as a result of the unique capabilities of the Boeing 787, Narita's role is changing and United is leading the change.

"Narita is no longer the right way to get to Asia," said Brian Znotins, United's vice president of network. "Now, the market demands non-stops from San Francisco and the U.S.

"As we saw the success of our China non-stops, it became clear that the fate of the Narita hub for us was a deconstruction," Znotins said.

Before United merged with Continental in 2010, Znotins was a Continental route analyst. In those days, he said, he viewed United's fifth freedom flights as being hugely advantageous. Fifth freedom rights enable an airline to carry passengers between two foreign countries.

When the merger happened, he said, "I could not wait to see the Narita stuff. But what we found was that it wasn't that good -- which was old news to United planners. We thought 'it feels like you are squandering an advantage,' but it was no longer an advantage - it was an anchor."

United's post-merge Pacific strategy relies heavily on its joint venture with ANA, Japan's largest airline. In 2011, regulators approved the joint venture, granting anti-trust immunity, which enables the two carriers to discuss schedules and pricing.

Those talks led ANA to initiate Narita service to secondary Asia markets in Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta and to put a bigger aircraft on its Bangkok flights, while United abandoned most of the fifth freedom flights. As a result, United and ANA flights from the U.S. to Narita continue to provide desirable connections to augment the U.S.-Tokyo traffic.

Historically, United's Tokyo advantage originated with a 1952 bilateral agreement that provided Pan Am and Northwest with unlimited fifth freedom rights to Asia. United bought the rights from Pan Am in 1985, while Delta (DAL) merged with Northwest in 2008.

[...]

But Delta is disadvantaged at Narita because Japan's two major airlines, ANA and JAL, are partnered with United and American (AAL) . Last month, Delta said it will cancel service from Narita to New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport, Osaka and Bangkok.

Elimination of the JFK flight means United will be the only U.S. carrier that flies between New York and Asia. (JAL's JFK flights are part of its joint venture with American).

Delta wants to grow at Tokyo's close-in Haneda Airport: It was recently awarded daytime flights to Haneda from Los Angeles and Minneapolis. However, Delta continues to be hampered by restrictions that severely limit daytime Haneda flying for U.S. carriers.

In August, Vinay Dube, Delta's senior vice president for Asia Pacific, decried those restrictions.

"The Haneda agreement between the U.S. and Japanese governments restricts trans-Pacific daytime access to the Haneda airport, giving an unfair advantage to other U.S. carriers that have Japanese joint venture partners {because} they can easily connect customers for flying beyond Tokyo-Haneda." Dube said.