J-Nationalism on the rise

[Yokohammer]

a true idiot like Hatoyama

Speak of the debiru ...

When this came up on a lunchtime news/commentary program yesterday, one political commentator said in a quite heated way: "I'm sure I speak for most of the people of Japan when I say: for heaven's sake, just cut it out (いい加減にしてください) ! You're just going to make a mess of things again!".

Hatoyama is not exactly well liked.

[Coligny]

However much of a dolt he is he is playing a far more complex game than he is being given credit for. Nobody really believes he suddenly quit that time because he had a tummy ache, shirley? My gut says he is playing both ends against the middle, which is the ground he was trying to gain by the snap election, which was brilliant politicking. Some of the best I have seen in the past decades. Those he was beholden to are now beholden to him. Just because he's a wastrel doesn't mean he's stupid.

I think you are making politics much more of a science than it really is. Like for marketing... Be careful of over rationalization.

Don't forget that no battle plan survive contact with the enemy...

I'd say that any planning and pre emptive action made before 3/11 were de facto void then. They reacted better than team B. That don't make them smart... Just less frozen/stupid.

[matsuki]

I phear a cornered cat syndrome...

Abe choosing to go full retard instead of listening to these hippies for phear of losing face...

Now...

He can also be a smart guy and stand down on his bullshit... Unlikely though...

Or just look zee other way and go full status quo... Might be thbest we could hope for...

I share your fear.

Abe has already shown that he doesn't deal well with criticism of any kind, even when it's gentle.
Plus the fact that he has pretty much staked his career on bludgeoning his right-leaning agenda through.

He seems to be catering to a blinkered minority rather than looking out for the best interests of the nation.

If it were just Merkel or other FG, I'd agree but seems he's facing some big explosions locally...would lose him many supporters but the praise over such a statement/stance would help people forget about "abenomics."

a true idiot like Hatoyama

Speak of the debiru ...

[Mike Oxlong]

[Coligny]

and that wuz the supporters... you should see what the detractors came up with...

[Yokohammer]

Did anyone watch/listen to Abe's 70-year post-war statement on Friday?

I'm actually kind of surprised it hasn't come up yet, so I guess it is up to me (unless nobody gives a hoot ... but you really should if you live in Japan and plan on staying for any length of time).

Abe looked tired throughout his speech on Friday, and at his speech at the commemoration of the end of the war on Saturday. The usual smirk and grandstanding were notably omitted (although I suppose the subject matter would sort of make that inappropriate). In his statement on Friday he did include the controversial "key words" demanded of him by a more balanced segment of the populace, words like "aggression" and "colonial rule" and "apology," but he did so from a distinctly third-person point of view rather that to his express his own personal viewpoint. It was a long statement, much longer than his predecessors', because he added a lot of fluff that seemed reasonable on the surface but on closer examination reveals an attempt to justify Japan's prewar political stance while in the same breath saying that going to war was a mistake. Another point that raised eyebrows was that he wanted to avoid creating a situation where future generations would have to continue apologising, while in the same breath saying that Japan must always learn from the lessons of history. Of course the question is: who's version of history?

I suspect that he wasn't entirely happy with concessions he was forced to make regarding the statement, and the result was this sort of ambiguous edit. It was good and bad all at the same time, and frustrating.

So why is Abe so determined to undermine Japan's thus-far pacifist post-war record?

Here's an article that describes the situation very well. Definitely worth a read for any FG with any sort of long-term personal investment here.

Growing influence of Japan Conference reflects resentment at Tokyo’s postwar settlement with Washington

A few quotes from the article:

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe in April delivered a speech to the U.S. Congress — the first by a Japanese leader — that lauded deepening trade ties and the military alliance with the United States. The speech, carefully tuned for his U.S. audience, cast Abe as a defender of strong democratic principles, a leader with “deep repentance” in his heart for the “lost dreams of young Americans” who died fighting Japan in World War II.

Conspicuously missing, writes veteran Japan watcher Gavan McCormack, was any mention of the core Abe values that Congress could hardly be expected to share: “take back Japan,” “cast off the postwar regime” and revise the U.S.-imposed Constitution; teach “correct” history to make the country’s youth proud and “revere the spirits of Japan’s war dead,” including those convicted by the Allies as war criminals.

Such views are deeply controversial outside Japan but, 70 years after the end of the war, they appear to hold sway among a remarkably large number of the nation’s political class. About a third of the Diet and well over half of Abe’s Cabinet support them. All are members of the parliamentary league of Japan Conference (Nippon Kaigi), arguably the country’s most powerful nationalist lobby group. Abe is its “special adviser.”

I am just enormously concerned about the way Japan is going,” Suzuki says. “The Abe administration doesn’t think there was anything wrong with what Japan did in the war — they just think it was unfortunate that they lost.

Even opponents are impressed at how radical conservatives have quietly transformed the landscape of Japanese politics. Japan Conference members, however, are believed to be frustrated with the slow pace of change.

“We are simply trying to make Japan a normal country,” says Yoshiko Sakurai, a leading supporter. That means possessing a strong economy and military, as well as a proud citizenry, she says.

It remains to be seen how far this project will go. Despite the fact that nobody had shown deeper hostility to the postwar state forged by the Americans in 1945-52 than Abe, McCormack says, Washington has turned a blind eye to his revisionism. In return, Abe has pursued a dream long cherished by both sides: shrugging off the country’s pacifist shackles and deepening the military alliance with America.

According to Tawara, that could be a costly deal.

“I don’t think many people have grasped yet what is happening in Japan,” he says. “The situation is very dangerous.”

And for reference, a Mainichi article on Murayama's response to the Abe statement:

Ex-PM Murayama slams Abe's war anniversary statement

[kurogane]

Did anyone watch/listen to Abe's 70-year post-war statement on Friday?
I'm actually kind of surprised it hasn't come up yet,

I can't watch politicians anymore, but I read the news digest version, and was also surprised.

Here's the short version: I thought it was typically cowardly of him to make it a third person statement rather than his own, but not much should be expected from the unrepentant spawn of an unrepentant war criminal. The spawn of a dog is still a dog. I liked that he mentioned Anglo-American or Western guilt and responsibility, and that he flipped the bird at those whiney continentals but that's for peevish reasons, and I don't think it was a useful gambit on such an occasion. Hopefully people will pick up on his spreading of the guilt to the Anglo-American Imperialist capitalist dogs and it will lead to a proper discussion of how low those fuckers should crawl, but I doubt that will happen. And I really liked Murayama's statement calling him out for pulling the "They Started It! They did it too!" canard on such an occasion without frankly acknowledging that Japan must apologise for what Japan did, and for the sake of Japan as much as for the sake of diplomacy. He wasn't much of a PM but he's a fine elder statesman. It pains my head how rarely that childish response gets criticised in Japanese circles. And he still has great eyebrows.

BTW, I agree with the commentators on how far right Abe and his Mouth Whores (Sakurai et al) are driving, but most Japanese I know will fully agree that it was brave and right of him to tell the F'Asians to STFU and move on. Regardless of their thoughts and sentiments about Abe's Neo-con push they are sick and tired of those turd munchers banging on about something that not only happened a long time ago (even by East Asian standards) but that has been apologised and paid for numerous times and in numerous ways, including the Comfort Women and POWs. I am all for holding Abe's feet to the fire for what he does and what he wants for Japan, but it was refreshing to see somebody say FO to people that should be told to FO. Even if it wasn't appropriate or advisable.

So, yeah, C- for effort and execution, but with a gold star for having some balls. If he had of expressly called on the West to apologise for their own crimes I would have given him a C+.

Hopefully this will lead to a normalisation of Yasukuni visits. Nobody gets hysterical when a US President visits Arlington or a British PM wherever it is they go, and they have Himalayan level culpability compared to the Alps of Japanese guilt.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The Washington post had a different take.

Mr. Abe’s peace offering on Japan’s past

WHEN IT comes to facing history in Asia, there is a striking double standard. China does not allow its own people to learn anything remotely resembling the truth of its 20th-century past — not about which Chinese forces battled Japanese invaders, not about the millions killed in the Great Famine of 1958 to 1961 caused by the policies of leader Mao Zedong, not about the brutal 1989 crackdown in Tiananmen Square. But Chinese officials feel entitled to pass judgment on Japanese history textbooks and to parse every word of Japanese official statements on World War II.

That’s one fact to keep in mind as you consider the debate over a statement issued Friday by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe on the 70th anniversary of Japan’s defeat in World War II. Some Chinese will criticize Mr. Abe for not apologizing more forcefully for Japan’s aggression; so will some Japanese. Unlike in China, Japanese will not have to fear legal repercussions for criticizing their own leaders.

Will their critique have merit? In his statement, Mr. Abe notes that Japan “has repeatedly expressed the feelings of deep remorse and heartfelt apology,” a position he says “will remain unshakable into the future.” Sadly, he couldn’t bring himself to repeat that apology.

On balance, though, Mr. Abe’s statement is far more conciliatory and less nationalistic than his critics feared it would be. He acknowledges the “immeasurable damage and suffering” Japan inflicted on innocent people in neighboring countries. He expresses gratitude to Chinese, Americans and other former enemies for the tolerance and forgiveness they offered Japan after the war. Most of all he reaffirms that Japan will remain, as it has been for 70 years, committed to peace: “Incident, aggression, war — we shall never again resort to any form of the threat or use of force as a means of settling international disputes.”

[Yokohammer]

The Washington post had a different take.

I certainly agree that ...

On balance, though, Mr. Abe’s statement is far more conciliatory and less nationalistic than his critics feared it would be. ...

But I think that taking this at face value ...

We’ve also noted that the anxiety aroused by the change makes it all the more important that Japan not attempt to rewrite the history of the 1930s and ’40s. Mr. Abe’s assurances should help in that regard. “We will engrave in our hearts the past,” he said, and pass it down “from generation to generation into the future.”

... is a huge mistake. Right at the beginning of his statement Abe hauled out the colonial encroachment of other countries at the time and clearly attempted to excuse Japan for entering into the war because the country had been "isolated and was worried about its future." This is the old "but everyone else was doing it too!" ploy that people who are not brainwashed by the right wing rhetoric get so upset about. And rightly so. Japan needs to clarify its position regarding its own actions without attempting to foist any or all of the responsibility onto others. In that regard I think the Washington Post is either being naive or playing to an agenda of some sort.

As I said in my post above, I thought the Abe statement was an uncomfortable mish-mosh of pandering to his critics in order to maintain political relevance while allowing his true feelings to show through the cracks. Not surprisingly a helluva lot of other people seem to feel the same way.

It was conciliatory, in a forced and evasive sort of way, and is definitely not going down as one of the great speeches of history as I'm sure Mr. Abe hoped. I think that once all the analysis is done and the results are weighed in it will become apparent that he's done more damage than good. I don't mean to imply that China is better or Korea is better ... or even that America is better. That's not the point at all. The problem is how Japan sees itself in the mirror and expresses that vision in politics and diplomacy, and where that might lead in the future. If it goes badly the big losers will be the citizens of Japan, and that will be very sad.

[Takechanpoo]

im disappointed that his speech is typically 玉虫色. its almost meaningless or at best better than doing nothing.
only point should be evaluated in it is almost ignoring k-peninsula things. there is no fucking single scintilla of need to do anything with the fucking lawfully merging k-peninsula any more.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Yokohammer, I pretty much agree with everything you said and I think the "China is worse when it come to historical revisionism and free speech" argument is a red herring similar to the "everyone else was doing it" argument. Unfortunately that kind of bullshit plays well with the masses not only in Japan but pretty much everywhere else too.

Do you really think there's anything that could be done at this point to make China and Korea happy though?

[Yokohammer]

Yokohammer, I pretty much agree with everything you said and I think the "China is worse when it come to historical revisionism and free speech" argument is a red herring similar to the "everyone else was doing it" argument. Unfortunately that kind of bullshit plays well with the masses not only in Japan but pretty much everywhere else too.

Do you really think there's anything that could be done at this point to make China and Korea happy though?

To be honest, keeping China and Korea happy is not real high on my personal list of immediate priorities, partly because there will always be outrage and righteous indignation in those countries about anything that Japan says. I certainly hope that some sort of diplomatic balance is achieved, but I'm really more concerned about the domestic consequences and the very real dangers of embracing the values that the Japan Conference holds so sacred. That stuff needs to be squelched at home before it expands into an even bigger international issue.

Making China and Korea happier ("happy" is unlikely) is a worthy goal for regional stability though, but it is a long term, continuous process that must naturally be reciprocated by China and Korea working hard to make Japan happy (er ... better make that "happier" too). Diplomacy, diplomacy, and more diplomacy. But to sort of restate what I said above, it's a process than needs to be started at home, now, before things really start going off track.

[inflames]

Do you really think there's anything that could be done at this point to make China and Korea happy though?

I actually think yes, there is. Aside from the fact that no leaders here are remotely charismatic, having Abe go to Seoul or Beijing and say that it was a huge mistake and he is sorry would make a difference.

No Japanese politicians are charismatic, which is something that would help here - most of them are still the product of backroom deals, and most of these statements read like a legal contract, so nobody the few people who were paying attention by the end of it simply don't believe it.

[Takechanpoo]

just before Abes 70 anniversary speech, in kimche land, this fucking retarded ex-prime minister....

CMNkQKFUYAAg6VY.jpg medium.jpg

btw this guys face always make me remind of

m_IMG_3607-1.JPG

[Coligny]

btw this guys face always make me remind of

m_IMG_3607-1.JPG

You call him "dad" ?

[Yokohammer]

just before Abes 70 anniversary speech, in kimche land, this fucking retarded ex-prime minister....:

Yes, I saw this somewhere else too.

He has a way of showing up at the wrong time and doing the wrong thing, doesn't he. I understand the spirit of what he's trying to do, but he just gets it wrong somehow.



~ Tapatalking ~

[Takechanpoo]

and you stupid dudes still dont understand lumping china things with kimche things is simply a category mistake.
its after Manchurian Incident which should be regarded as invasion by empire japan.
do you fucking understand? eh?

[Yokohammer]

and you stupid dudes still dont understand lumping china things with kimche things is simply a category mistake.
its after Manchurian Incident which should be regarded as invasion by empire japan.
do you fucking understand? eh?

Sorry, you're skipping over a lot of history there.

The Russo-Japanese war (1904~1905) was fought over both countries' intentions to colonise Manchuria and Korea. Japan's attempts to build an empire had begun long before the Manchurian Incident.

[Wage Slave]

and you stupid dudes still dont understand lumping china things with kimche things is simply a category mistake.
its after Manchurian Incident which should be regarded as invasion by empire japan.
do you fucking understand? eh?

Sorry, you're skipping over a lot of history there.

The Russo-Japanese war (1904~1905) was fought over both countries' intentions to colonise Manchuria and Korea. Japan's attempts to build an empire had begun long before the Manchurian Incident.

And that was the bit of Abe's speech I found hard to accept. He implied that Japan's aggressive, criminal war was a actually a defensive and noble response to Imperialism in general and Western Colonialism in particular. It wasn't defensive at all. Japan was fully supportive of the idea of empire and colonialism - They simply wanted to build a mighty Japanese empire as quickly as possible. Why they were so bad at administering it and why it left such a bad taste in so many mouths has nothing to do with Western Powers and everything to do with the kind of fascist and deeply racist ideologies Japan was wedded to at the time.

[matsuki]

and you stupid dudes still dont understand lumping china things with kimche things is simply a category mistake.
its after Manchurian Incident which should be regarded as invasion by empire japan.
do you fucking understand? eh?

Sorry, you're skipping over a lot of history there.

The Russo-Japanese war (1904~1905) was fought over both countries' intentions to colonise Manchuria and Korea. Japan's attempts to build an empire had begun long before the Manchurian Incident.

And that was the bit of Abe's speech I found hard to accept. He implied that Japan's aggressive, criminal war was a actually a defensive and noble response to Imperialism in general and Western Colonialism in particular. It wasn't defensive at all. Japan was fully supportive of the idea of empire and colonialism - They simply wanted to build a mighty Japanese empire as quickly as possible. Why they were so bad at administering it and why it left such a bad taste in so many mouths has nothing to do with Western Powers and everything to do with the kind of fascist and deeply racist ideologies Japan was wedded to at the time.

The Euro powers that invaded North America weren't much better, they just managed to kill off more of the native populations than Japan. Dead men tell no tales can't rebuild their nations on oppressor hate.

[Wage Slave]

and you stupid dudes still dont understand lumping china things with kimche things is simply a category mistake.
its after Manchurian Incident which should be regarded as invasion by empire japan.
do you fucking understand? eh?

Sorry, you're skipping over a lot of history there.

The Russo-Japanese war (1904~1905) was fought over both countries' intentions to colonise Manchuria and Korea. Japan's attempts to build an empire had begun long before the Manchurian Incident.

And that was the bit of Abe's speech I found hard to accept. He implied that Japan's aggressive, criminal war was a actually a defensive and noble response to Imperialism in general and Western Colonialism in particular. It wasn't defensive at all. Japan was fully supportive of the idea of empire and colonialism - They simply wanted to build a mighty Japanese empire as quickly as possible. Why they were so bad at administering it and why it left such a bad taste in so many mouths has nothing to do with Western Powers and everything to do with the kind of fascist and deeply racist ideologies Japan was wedded to at the time.

The Euro powers that invaded North America weren't much better, they just managed to kill off more of the native populations than Japan. Dead men tell no tales can't rebuild their nations on oppressor hate.

Perhaps, but that is of absolutely no relevance to a discussion of the causes and consequences of the second world war.

[kurogane]

And that was the bit of Abe's speech I found hard to accept. He implied that Japan's aggressive, criminal war was a actually a defensive and noble response to Imperialism in general and Western Colonialism in particular. It wasn't defensive at all. Japan was fully supportive of the idea of empire and colonialism - They simply wanted to build a mighty Japanese empire as quickly as possible. Why they were so bad at administering it and why it left such a bad taste in so many mouths has nothing to do with Western Powers and everything to do with the kind of fascist and deeply racist ideologies Japan was wedded to at the time.

Hee Hee. Nice to see you go full native for a change. Yours are the lowest people ever to pollute the earth. You make Nazis look like choirboys. And that includes you, even though I am heart to heart and mind to mind. You are filth as a people, speaking historically. All the Japanese did was fall for your BS, use their existing predilections, and be almost better at it even though they were brown. And you can’t forgive them for it, because they didn't ask Big Whitey if it was okay.

Perhaps, but that is of absolutely no relevance to a discussion of the causes and consequences of the second world war.

I never thought of you as much of a Romford Historian.


This is FUNnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wage Slave]

All irrelevant my dear Kuro. This is not a discussion about who holds or doesn't hold the moral high ground, it is a discussion about a speech to mark the 70th anniversary of World War 2, it's causes and consequences. How can someone say that Japan was opposing colonialism when Japan clearly had a huge appetite for it and went at it with such gusto?

And as for doing colonialism better?

PS What's a Romford Historian?

[wuchan]

kuro is in the same boat as takeapoop, Japanese but won't admit it. There is no use in arguing with them...

[Takechanpoo]

your thinking circuit is "naive", definitely lacking the notion of legitimacy and fairness.
so never on the same wavelength

[matsuki]

[he Euro powers that invaded North America weren't much better, they just managed to kill off more of the native populations than Japan. Dead men tell no tales can't rebuild their nations on oppressor hate.

Perhaps, but that is of absolutely no relevance to a discussion of the causes and consequences of the second world war.

No, and that's why bringing it into the mix like Abe does, further waters down the meaning of his third person apology.

[kurogane]

Sincere apologies for posting while drunk again. Sorry.

[Yokohammer]

It seems that Abe is wedged firmly between a rock (The Japan Conference) and a hard place (Washington).

Washington seems to be very pleased with Abe's performance, which might also explain why the Washington Post article that SJ posted yesterday was so positive.

U.S. lauds Abe WWII anniversary statement

WASHINGTON – The White House on Friday gave high marks to a statement issued by Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe to mark the 70th anniversary of the end of World War II.

“We welcome Prime Minister Abe’s expression of deep remorse for the suffering caused by Japan during the World War II era, as well as his commitment to uphold past Japanese government statements on history,” a White House National Security Council spokesman said in a statement.

“We also value . . . Abe’s assurances of Japan’s intent to expand upon its contributions to international peace and prosperity in the years ahead,” the White House statement said.

“For 70 years, Japan has demonstrated an abiding commitment to peace, democracy and the rule of law,” it said, adding, “This record stands as a model for nations everywhere.”

I understand that Washington wants Japan to be able to back them up with military firepower if the shoot hits the fan, and I can see the diplomatic necessity to not piss on an ally's parade, but it seems like they're turning a blind eye to some fairly serious issues with this one. Either that or they've completely lost the plot.

[Coligny]

I understand that washington wants Japan to be able to back them up with military firepower if the shoot hits the fan, and I can see the diplomatic necessity to not piss on an ally's parade, but it seems like they're turning a blind eye to some fairly serious issue

Holy fucking shit... Aside from a glorified giant aircraft carrier/island the japanese army is absolutely worthless. They haven't seen a combat situation since 1945. You can't even count on them to have read the manual provided with their shiny toys.

I think even the Vatican Guards can wipe their asses...

[Samurai_Jerk]

kuro is in the same boat as takeapoop, Japanese but won't admit it. There is no use in arguing with them...

Are you talking ethnicity or nationality? He's never denied being a Canadian of Japanese descent.