Koizumi sorry for 'great damages & pain to people'

[Taro Toporific]

Koizumi Apologizes for Past ColonizationGuardian Unlimited, 15 August
TOKYO (AP) - Japan's leader apologized for Tokyo's wartime colonization and invasions Monday, a day after other Asian nations marked the 60th anniversary...
Koizumi, in a written statement marking his second apology for the war to Asian neighbors this year, recognized the suffering his nation inflicted. ``Our country has caused great damages and pain to people in many countries, especially our Asian neighbors, through colonization and invasion.''...more...

[Buraku]

Its a good move by Koizumi, to be a little more like the Germans and try to express regrets and educate the masses

with a stagnant Japan economy and protestors from the Philippines, former sex slaves from Taiwan and South Korea, the Japanese can no longer afford their old checkbook diplomacy

China is becoming more free and does great trade with the USA,
Japan doesn't want to be left behind as the balance changes in Asia
but can they keep Blinky-Shintaro away from Yasukuni

[homesweethome]

Koizumi Apologizes for Past Colonization
Which is the real pumpkin head?

[jingai]

Its a good move by Koizumi, to be a little more like the Germans and try to express regrets and educate the masses

Agreed, but the "masses" already think this way, according to recent polls about whether the war was a mistake. It's the small right-wing minority, who Koizumi seems to be friendly with, that hold different views.

[American Oyaji]

It doesn't matter how much Japan apologizes.

Until everyone that remembers the past is dead and perhaps for years after, there will be those that will enflame the masses of the other asian nations against Japan.

[homesweethome]

It doesn't matter how much Japan apologizes.

Until everyone that remembers the past is dead and perhaps for years after, there will be those that will enflame the masses of the other asian nations against Japan.

For the 18th time Japan says sorry, but is it?
August 16, 2005

By one count it was Tokyo's 18th official apology. But while the burden of the war and the need to apologise should be lessening with the decades, it is not.

A statement yesterday of "deep remorse and sincere apology" for World War II has raised questions about whether anyone truly believes Japan. The Prime Minister, Junichiro Koizumi, said Japan "caused tremendous damage and pain to the peoples of many countries, especially Asian countries, through colonial rule and invasion".

"Humbly acknowledging such facts of history, I once again reflect most deeply and offer apologies from my heart as well as express my condolences to all the victims of the last major war both in and out of the country."

But there are signs that Japan is craving an honest and comprehensive debate on a topic that has plagued it since the official surrender was signed 60 years ago yesterday. Seventy-five per cent of respondents to a survey on who was responsible for Japan's wartime actions said there had been insufficient discussion about it, the Mainichi Daily said. And even as Japan offers "a future-oriented relationship of co-operation" to its Asian neighbours, there is bitterness. Despite its repeated apologies, Japan is unreconciled with its past. It is on bad terms with its neighbours, all of whom suffered at its hands during the war.

Anybody can apologise and words are cheap, cheaper still when they are said over and over without any real sign of remorse, the recipients begins to wonder about their sincerity, especially when actions show differently.
Real remorse for more than just losing the war has yet to be shown by Japan or it's leaders overall.

[kamome]

Yeah, the apology contained pretty good words, but the right wing still has too much control over politics and policymaking to make the apology sound completely sincere. You've gotta' have the apology plus no trips to Yasukuni and textbooks that reflect a balanced view of history.

[jingai]

You've gotta' have the apology plus no trips to Yasukuni and textbooks that reflect a balanced view of history.

To be fair, while I'm with you on Yasukuni, isn't textbook selection not under Koizumi's control? Also I wouldn't say the textbooks in China have anywhere near as "balanced" (non-politicized) view of history as Japan.

[Greji]

It is starting to look like "why bother" is starting to take on meaning. When an apology is issued, regardless of the wording, it is immediately shot down by numerous groups as:

1. Not sincere
2. Lacking
3. Failing to address all issues
4. Any other reason not covered by the first three!

It would appear that Japan cannot win for losing, whether they apologize or not! It would certain look like 18 different efforts should have covered most of the bases and had some sincerity. But they were not and probably won't ever be accepted. So what should they do?

I used to think this was an important issue, but it has got to to the point now that I really don't care because it has become patently obvious that no one wants to hear an apology or an answer, regardless of the demands and attempts thereof.

[Buraku]

China's commie view of history is an insult to its own people, Mongols, Hans, Miao....you name 'em they get a shit deal
much like American cowboy and Indian history has insulted the Natives
except what the Chinese were up to was very fucked up, especially under Mao's rule
however China today is the buzz word, its more open and does a lot of free trade with the USA and EU




but Nihon's economy has gone stagnant and Japanese whitewashed history is a fucking insult to whole fucking the planet !!

.... Korean slaves, British war vets, Chinese victims of chemical weapons, Americans who were tortured really got a lot of shit from Nippon
the Yasukuni antics are another slap in the face


Japanese wankers and fucked heads trying to make shitty claims to Taiwanese isles and Russian land doesn't help things


there are crazy fuckers out there ready for a fight

[Mulboyne]

but Nihon's economy has gone stagnant

I would be wary of repeating that mantra. Today's Japanese economy is well off the peaks of the bubble years but corporate Japan is in much better shape than the late nineties; the stock market is at a four year high; pockets of real estate are rising in value while the declines elsewhere have slowed. And all this while public works as a share of GDP has been reduced. Anyone sitting back and deciding that Japan is a basket case has missed substantial opportunities. If you want a guide to the stock market, look at the OECD leading indicators which are more closely correlated with TOPIX than any domestic data series. The Korean KOSPI demonstrates and even closer link.
While natural justice might demand that all an economy's ills be expunged before a recovery takes place, many of the bad guys tend to pull through too. Witness Donald Trump in the US who many hoped would face either jail or bankruptcy in the late eighties but wriggled his way out. Rupert Murdoch also looked into the abyss.
Japan's recovery faces many potential problems - the oil price leading the pack - and the government has a habit of throwing a spanner in the works but, whatever happens from here, there can be no argument that a recovery has taken place.

[Buraku]

repeating that mantra

What mantra

the experts agree the economys is in the sh*t and the only guys who talk it up are usually fucking japanophiles

A few months back China put on the brakes and the Nippon economy went way South. Japan stays floating just above water through its dependant sales to the Chinese
http://www.csis.org/japan/japanwatch/jw050726.pdf
PDF file Lame Duck Koizumi – What It Means for Washington
( while Bush is in office the Nihon stocks have been hitting record lows )



wake up !
just because Chinese bought a few mitsubishi VCRs and Japan gameboys doesn't mean squat, this is afterall the land of the setting sun

however what is attractive is that the Japanese still have a ton of savings and gold bars under thier floor boards

not that it will do much good as the nation sinks under a Quadrillion of debt

[Mulboyne]

[Buraku]

Tokyo stocks at 4 year highs

4 year highs don't mean shit

its like saying Mike Tyson won the Lennox Lewis fight because
Lennox beat the shit out of Tyson for 5 rounds
while Mike might have won the 6th

Let me show you the big stock picture

Japan stocks are way down
in 1990 they were 38,000 then there were questions about land prices,

1992 the Japanese started to see deflation and the stocks dropped to 32,100 and 31,500

1994 there were scandals on the bad loans, yakuza banking practice and the J-stocks hit 23,000

1996 Wages started to Freeze, pension system was in trouble, and whole sale prices dropped J-stocks falling to new lows of 21,000

1998 the Japan Nikkei was plumeting again hitting lows of 17,100-15,600, Japan stock market was in serious trouble and negative brith rates and a looming elderly population weren't going to help Nippon

1999-2000 People bought into the Japanophile propaganda that the world was going Y2K
and everyone needed a new Sony or Fuji electronics gimmick
Tokyo stocks rebounded to 20,000

2001-2002 an unstable dollar, high oil prices and competition from China caused Japan to be in the worst recession for 20 years Japan stocks were falling to 11,100-10,900


so just because there is a minimal amount of recovery from the 2001 recession, it doesn't mean squat

the Japan market is has still lost much of its value, and it needs to be 4 times large to match its former glorious and prosperous days
a recovery of 200 points doesn't mean shit
while SKorean automobile exports increase, Oil prices rise, and the Chinese industry continues to grow

[Greji]

Tokyo stocks at 4 year highs

4 year highs don't mean shit
snip
the Japan market is has still lost much of its value, and it needs to be 4 times large to match its former glorious and prosperous days
a recovery of 200 points doesn't mean shit
while SKorean automobile exports increase, Oil prices rise, and the Chinese industry continues to grow

I don't think anyone is expecting to see the ecomony reach the pre-bubble highs. The point is that there is a sustainable recovering being shown. You may not buy your stocks based on what Bloombergs, Morgan Stanley or Barclays project, but I wouldn't necessarily say that what they are saying "don't mean shit" and I wouldn't say you could class them as "Japanophiles" trying to prop up the economy.

[Socratesabroad]

China's commie view of history is an insult to its own people, Mongols, Hans, Miao....you name 'em they get a shit deal
much like American cowboy and Indian history has insulted the Natives
except what the Chinese were up to was very fucked up, especially under Mao's rule

Mongolians might find it a bit amusing you've considered them China's 'own people', as would history:

The first mention in the Chinese chronicles of tribes that can be identified with Mongolia goes back in a shadowy way to the 2nd millennium BC. The first inhabitants of whom there is certainty, however, are the Hsiung-nu, in about the 5th or 4th century BC. It was once thought that they were Turks, or at least Turkic speaking, but the opinion has grown that they spoke a paleo-Asiatic language, represented today by the Ket dialects of the Yenisey River valley in Siberia. The Hsiung-nu created a great tribal empire in Mongolia while China was being unified as an imperial state under the Ch'in (221-206 BC) and Han (206 BC-AD 220) dynasties.

China's 'own people' would better be called the Han ethic group, though they have far from suffered:

From the hinterlands of the north, to the lush jungles in the south, from the mountains of Taiwan in the east, to the top of the world in the west, China serves as home to 56 official ethnic groups. The largest group, the Han, make up over 92% of China's vast population, and it is the elements of Han civilization that world considers "Chinese culture."
http://www.c-c-c.org/chineseculture/minority/minority.html

(As any first-year Chinese student could tell you, 汉]Mongols, Hans, Miao=China's 'own people' that '[got] a shit deal'[/i]

Well, at least you got one of the three right...

[Buraku]

Well, at least you got one of the three right...

let me guess
and the only people who should have a right to claim Honshu and Sapporo are the Ainu
and the States belong to the pure Natives aswell ?

or is it that you only respect those at the top of the food chain
such as the 95% Aryan superiority in the whitehouse
97% white Russian of Moscow
or the 99% pure blooded Japanese in the J-gov

The USA has many races and ethnic people, Asians, Europeans, ex-Cubans, people of Mexican heritage, Natives, Blacks....
Like it or not, China has existed for well beyond a thousand years and its people are filled with various ethnic groups

[Greji]

or is it that you only respect those at the top of the food chain such as the
95% Aryan superiority in the whitehouse
97% white Russian of Moscow
or the 99% pure blooded Japanese in the J-gov

I have no idea what your point is, but as my pappy always used to say "the fastest horse don't always win the race, but that's the way to bet"!

[homesweethome]

Most commentators who have made a creditable living during the post bubble years have been sceptical about Japan so it is worth pausing for thought when they acknowledge that Japan's economy is improving.

In fact, if you really wanted to say that Japan's economy "is in the sh*t" then you would do better to note that the current consensus is the exact opposite of what you claim and point out that the consensus opinion is rarely right.

Morgan Stanley is not alone in that view:

Morgan Stanley, Bloomberg and others you quote are economic "snapshots" of short to medium term economic trends in Japan as they see them. Unfortunately Buraku is correct about the long-term (present to 2025) projected economic performance of the Japan economy. IF Japan can address it's budget problems, IF Japan can make the necessary structural reforms, IF Japan can come to terms with a shrinking population, and so on. These are all very big ifs for a country that does not presently show much interest in making the necessary changes. The next election will give us some indication of that, but either way Japan long-term is basically stagnant at best and depressed in the worst case.

long term Japan economic forcast

And I should add that it is the business of Morgan Stanley and Bloomberg and others for Japan to be growing or shrinking or anything else that would encourage potential investors to sell long or short the funds of these respective groups. That is how they make their living, and the purpose of their 'forecasts.'

[Mulboyne]

I should add that it is the business of Morgan Stanley and Bloomberg and others for Japan to be growing or shrinking or anything else that would encourage potential investors to sell long or short the funds of these respective groups. That is how they make their living, and the purpose of their 'forecasts.'

I agree that investment banks generate research to encourage trading. It is anathema for them to see investors doing nothing. But the two I quoted just happen to be the most recently revised forecasts. The IMF and OECD have also released more postive reports. This from the IMF:

"The financial system has been stabilised, the corporate sector is more resilient, labour markets have become more dynamic and fiscal consolidation is under way. As a result, the economy appears better positioned to sustain an expansion," the fund's executive directors said. The IMF forecast growth of 1.8 per cent in Japan's economy in 2005 and a decline of 0.4 per cent in the consumer price index. Japan's economy grew 2.6 per cent last year on a seasonally adjusted basis while consumer prices were flat. The fund saw Japan's unemployment rate falling to an average of 4.4 per cent in 2005 from 4.7 per cent in 2004.

No-one is claiming that Japan is all set for a return to former glories. Indeed, the IMF also outlines the longer term risks which it would be foolish not to acknowledge:

Nonetheless, directors noted that low trend growth and rising demographic pressures pose risks to medium-term prospects

I think it is wise to keep an open mind. Longer term, Japan faces some big challenges but the economy has done better of late and that isn't unimportant. I have regularly heard claims in my business that something "will never happen in Japan" and, when it does happen, that "it doesn't matter, Japan is still a basket case in the long term". The government would never allow foreigners to buy a bank - then Ripplewood bought LTCB and formed Shinsei. Renault could never turn around Nissan - they did. Japan would never see hostile takeovers - we've seen two. At some point, you have to be prepared to revise your original analysis if your predictions are not correct rather than dismiss the evidence.

The lows on the stock market reflected widespread fears that Japan was essentially bankrupt. A recovery from those levels was not a vote of confidence but rather an acknowledgement that Japan still seemed to be breathing but was, nevertheless, irrelevant. During that period, Japan can be fairly described as stagnant. I make no forecast myself about the long term sustainability of this recovery but it has been a recovery and one that was contrary to most expectations.

[Socratesabroad]

Well, at least you got one of the three right...

let me guess

Perhaps you should refrain from guessing]
Like it or not, China has existed for well beyond a thousand years and its people are filled with various ethnic groups[/quote]

There is nothing to like or dislike. You made incorrect statements of fact. The Mongols are an ethnic group spread over a vast area and are not, as you labeled them, China's 'own people.'

As this empire expanded from its core area in Mongolia, it stationed armies in various places throughout Asia. The descendants of those forces now reside as far south as Yunnan (in southwestern China), as far north as Lake Baikal in Russia (the Buriats), as far west as southwestern Russia (the Kalmyks), Afghanistan (the Moghols) and Xinjiang (the Oirats), and of course, in the Inner Mongolian Autonomous Region in China and Mongolia. Though these groups live thousands of miles apart, there is recognition of a common heritage going back to the thirteenth century. A common language also unites Mongols. All speak Mongolian, with minor linguistic differences, and use the same unique script.
http://www.askasia.org/teachers/Instructional_Resources/Materials/Readings/China/R_china_13.htm

The Han are China's 'own people' as they are China's overwhelming ethnic minority, though you are incorrect to say that they '[got] a shit deal.' Rather, they are the dominant ethnic minority, evidenced in all aspects of Chinese language, life, society, and government.

Educated Chinese tend to regard the written ideographs as primary, and they regard the seven or eight spoken Han Chinese dialects as simply variant ways of pronouncing the same ideographs. This is linguistically inaccurate, but the attitude has significant political and social consequences. The uniform written language in 1987 continued to be a powerful force for Han unity.

The other major force contributing to Han ethnic unity has been the centralized imperial state. The ethnic group takes its name from the Han dynasty (206 B.C.-A.D. 220). Although the imperial government never directly controlled the villages, it did have a strong influence on popular values and culture. The average peasant could not read and was not familiar with the details of state administration or national geography, but he was aware of belonging to a group of subcontinental scope. Being Han, even for illiterate peasants, has meant conscious identification with a glorious history and a state of immense proportions.
http://countrystudies.us/china/41.htm

Thus, my comments are directed at your mis-statements about two of the three ethnic groups you mentioned.

And what this has to do with native ethnicities in the US, Russia, or Japan is anyboy's guess...though hopefully not yours, buraku, as your guesses are more fancy than fact.

[homesweethome]

Socratesabroad wrote:

The Han are China's 'own people' as they are China's overwhelming ethnic minority, though you are incorrect to say that they '[got] a shit deal.' Rather, they are the dominant ethnic minority,

Being Han, even for illiterate peasants, has meant conscious identification with a glorious history and a state of immense proportions.

http://www.yale.edu/yalelj/108/108-1ab1.html

By contrast to developed nations, most developing countries have one or more economically dominant ethnic minorities coexisting with an impoverished "indigenous" majority. Under certain conditions, the presence of an economically dominant minority will introduce a fundamental tension between markets and democracy. This will be the case whenever the economically dominant minority is also market-dominant-meaning that it tends to be economically dominant under market conditions. In developing countries with a market-dominant minority, markets and democracy will tend to favor different ethnic groups. Markets will benefit the market-dominant minority, while democracy will increase the power of the relatively impoverished majority. In these circumstances, the combined pursuit of markets and democracy will produce a highly charged and unstable situation.

Now we understand, just like South Africa, Kazaknstan, and Vietnam
It is the dominant ethnic minority which rules us all.

The Jews have control over all the worlds banks and finance.

Democracy at work?

Perhaps you should refrain from guessing.

[amdg]

The government would never allow foreigners to buy a bank - then Ripplewood bought LTCB and formed Shinsei.

What's the word on the stability of Shinsei right now Mulboyne? I've been considering making a LT deposit with them for a while (moving funds from the Post Office while it finds its new feet). I don't have a financial advisor so just wondering if there was any news on the street...

[Mulboyne]

What's the word on the stability of Shinsei right now Mulboyne? I've been considering making a LT deposit with them for a while (moving funds from the Post Office while it finds its new feet). I don't have a financial advisor so just wondering if there was any news on the street...

I've never used them so I can't speak for their service but they are stable and solvent. If you are worried about any financial institution, you can check the new deposit insurance guidelines on the link below:

http://www.dic.go.jp/english/e_seido/2003/part1_1.pdf

[Socratesabroad]

Socratesabroad wrote: The Han are China's 'own people' as they are China's overwhelming ethnic minority, though you are incorrect to say that they '[got] a shit deal.' Rather, they are the dominant ethnic minority,

I was being figurative in describing the Han people as an ethnic 'minority' so perhaps I should be more literal: Accounting for roughly 92% of the Chinese population, the Han ethnic group is an ethnic minority only in the sense that they account for roughly 1/4 of the world's population and not 1/2 or 3/4. When limiting oneself specifically to China, they are both the indigenous majority (at least going back to the Han dynasty) and the ethnic majority.

Thus, all comparisons to South Africa, Kazakhstan, Vietnam, etc. are pointless. Similarly, references to economic/political control by an ethnic minority do not apply to China: the ethnic majority (the Han) holds almost all of the social, economic, legal, and political power.

Perhaps you should refrain from guessing.

No, sir, you should avoid from making statements about a subject which you clearly know nothing about.

But what irks me even more are your attempts to tag-team me with buraku, which is particularly irritating since you are both clearly wrong.

[amdg]

I've never used them so I can't speak for their service but they are stable and solvent. If you are worried about any financial institution, you can check the new deposit insurance guidelines on the link below:

http://www.dic.go.jp/english/e_seido/2003/part1_1.pdf

Ta!

[kamome]

You've gotta' have the apology plus no trips to Yasukuni and textbooks that reflect a balanced view of history.

To be fair, while I'm with you on Yasukuni, isn't textbook selection not under Koizumi's control? Also I wouldn't say the textbooks in China have anywhere near as "balanced" (non-politicized) view of history as Japan.

That's right, but the fact that the right wing has such influence over education makes Koizumi's apology ring hollow precisely because he doesn't have the ability to reverse that influence.

And I agree that China could be seen as being intellectually dishonest on the textbook issue, but that shouldn't exempt Japan from taking remedial domestic action on the same issue.