China vs. Japan: Who Will Win?

[homesweethome]

I just heard the Chinese are trying to lure the Japanese subs into the area so they can get their "prints" for future possible use with their latest version of the CY-1 which is a progammable anti-sub missle.

[cstaylor]

But can they shoot down kamikaze planes?

[IkemenTommy]

If China tried anything, then the U.S. will retaliate for sure and the Chinese know this and they are not that stupid. They would most likely first attack Taiwan instead as there are more national interests in that region.

[homesweethome]

If China tried anything, then the U.S. will retaliate for sure and the Chinese know this and they are not that stupid. They would most likely first attack Taiwan instead as there are more national interests in that region.

This may not be the case. The Mutual Defence Agreement the US has with Japan only kicks in if Japan is attacked directly The US may not get directly involved if it is a skirmish on the high seas involving a territorial dispute.

Taiwan is certainly a primary concern of China's but Taiwan also has a territorial dispute with Japan over the same set of islands. China could annex Taiwan, but this is doubtful at the moment. It is a very sensative issue with them though. No the real issue is the gas both China and Japan need for energy supplies. Also the shipping lanes that run through the area are vital to Japan and Japan doesn't want to see China control that.

Also I should mention that Japan has dispatched a destroyer group to the area, their orders area unclear at this time. You won't see this in the news though.Very touchy situation.

[IkemenTommy]

Anti-Japan game soon to debut online in China

[Buraku]

There is no need to mobilize the army when they could launch icbm's at Japan. A couple of those rockets could flatten out Nippon in a heartbeat.

One of those landing on Tokyo-Yokohama would cripple Japan



this question was asked many times before

A navy doesn't mean shit anymore, not since Russians and US military started using Space

I would guess that China is building a force much like the Russians had in the 70s and 80s
Soviet Navy stinks
they always had crap ships,
Norweigans, British, Japanese, India and French had much better ships than Russia


However what always made Russia one of the most deadly forces on Earth was their long range ICBM missiles, bombers, MIRV Nukes, space technology and fighter aircraft
in order to modernise their military after WW2
Ruskies skipped building a good Navy and good ships
but instead moved directly into Space-technology - missiles, spy-satellites...
and space is where future battles depend for victory
they also have a strong infantry and a shit load of armored vehicles and tanks


Some big-fat companies from Texas and Washington are now in bed with China
'United States is not required to defend Taiwan' according to Richard Armitage.



If China becomes a half as powerful as the Ruskies did during their prime,
then the Chinese dragon would wipe the floor with Nippon with one arm still tied behind its back



As smaller conflicts have shown Aegis isn't worth shit anymore

and against these monsters
its Navy say bye bye


However let's say the odds are with Nippon
and its only Navy vs Navy, Ship vs Ship
it would still be hard for Japan because China is starting to improve its destroyers and it now has some deadly submarines
although the Japanese ships are still better than the Chinese


everyone is looking at China in an Asia conflict prediction
however I say it will be another nation that starts the trouble, and some of us know this country well

[Tsuru]

Homesweethome:

I take it Japan and China don't have aircraft carriers and/or subs capable of delivering nuclear warheads then?

[Buraku]

Homesweethome:

I take it Japan and China don't have aircraft carriers and/or subs capable of delivering nuclear warheads then?

China recently bought an old carrier from the Ruskies
its unknown if they are just going to stick in a museum,
scrap it,
or update it and start mass producing carriers

The Chinese are well able to deliver Nuke warheads from mobile launchers, fighter-bomber aircraft, outer-space MIRVs, submarines....take your pick


http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forum/album ... 933e9f.jpg[/img:829a99c88f]

although they only have about the same number of warheads as the French so can't blow up planet Earth one hundred times over like the Ruskies or Yanks could have
Yet a China Nuke today is hundreds of times more powerful than the one America dropped on Nagasaki

[IkemenTommy]

Pentagon Revises Nuclear Strike Plan
A doctrine allowing the US pre-emptive use of nuclear weapons in the event of a WMD threat to the country is under development and is awaiting confirmation by Donald Rumsfeld.

The option for the use of nuclear weapons would be open if an enemy was using or about to use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against its forces or civilian population, or as a way to destroy the WMD threat.

The philosophy would be designed to work with tactical nuclear weapons whose primary use is underground WMD bunkers. Congress has yet to endorse the warheads because they say it would make it more likely that such weapons would be used or proliferated.

[Tsuru]

[homesweethome]

Homesweethome:

I take it Japan and China don't have aircraft carriers and/or subs capable of delivering nuclear warheads then?

Essentially the Chinese have a vast array of platforms capable of delivery of any nuclear or non nuclear ordinace they choose. Buraku states it very dramatically but he/she is essentially correct. The Chinese do not have an operable aircraft carrier at this time, neither do the Japanese. Most analysts assume that given the need both countries could quickly convert the assets they have on hand into a working aircraft carrier.
The purpose of these platforms though is long term air and sea power projection in places far from the home port of most national navies. The Japanese have this capability on a limited scale the Chinese do also but both powers are at the moment regional players and will remain so for the time being.

Submarines are a very different species, both countries posess enough submarine assets to project nuclear capabilities far from their national shores if necessary. These subs are quite capable of evading any search effort, able to stay at sea for long period of time (months if needed in both countries cases), are very flexible and adaptable to almost any types of conditions and missions, and are a very potent delivery of a wide variety of nuclear and conventional weapons. It may be a kind of suicide mission for both countries sub crews if they chose to go to great distances, but it could be done.

Neither country, in my opinion, requires even these assets to make a nuclear statement. China has a limited but quite capable global delivery missle system in place and Japan, while claiming to be a non- nuclear power, certainly has the technological expertise to achieve any global nuclear goal in a very short time (a matter of weeks if not days). Even North Korea has the capability to deliver a nuclear weapon across vast areas of Asia and the Pacific, granted somewhat limited in enriched plutonium assets, but well within the reach of Japan. It may only take one or two.

As for heading to the hills, that is a personal choice. Maybe a little premature at this point. After all the shooting hasn't started officially yet

[homesweethome]

A doctrine allowing the US pre-emptive use of nuclear weapons in the event of a WMD threat to the country is under development and is awaiting confirmation by Donald Rumsfeld.

The option for the use of nuclear weapons would be open if an enemy was using or about to use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against its forces or civilian population, or as a way to destroy the WMD threat.

Another scenario for a possible nuclear preemptive strike is in case of an "imminent attack from adversary biological weapons that only effects from nuclear weapons can safely destroy."

I love it.

[Tsuru]

I much prefer this approach if I can to waiting for things to really get out of hand

Besides, her coming to Europe was planned a long time ago for other reasons obviously, but this is one more compelling reason for her to come here

[Buraku]

I much prefer this approach if I can to waiting for things to really get out of hand

China won't do squat for a while,
it is friendly with the US, sells to Europe and makes so much money from trade to the USA

Chinese will play nice until about 2008-2010, after the Olympics and after they improve their high-tech industry and modernise the China military

Oil n gasoline will start to rise to crazy prices in 2009-2010 perhaps the China bubble will start to burst, Japan will be already sinking in a quadrillion of debt and that's when the shit will hit the fan

[Tsuru]

So what's this "Asian miracle" we keep hearing about? The China boom has only just really started to pick up and now you're saying it's destitude to get crushed under it's own success in only 3 to 5 years, which as far as I know sounds like a pretty logical thing to happen.

Another myth (I have no idea since I'm no macro-economist) is all the foreign currency accumulating in Chinese banks is putting them into a position where they can put the global economy in a tailspin literally at the drop of a dime. One scenario I heard was that Chinese banks could theoretically sell all their Dollars and crush the American (and therefor also the European and Japanese-) economy just by doing this, or even bruise the economy just by making people think they will and putting the world's stock markets into a selling frenzy.

[homesweethome]

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2005/09/14/2003271561
Japan wary of Chinese spy plane, ships

Japan's navy said yesterday it was keeping a close eye on Chinese military moves after five warships were spotted near disputed gas fields and the reported incursion of a spy plane.

Japan said Friday it saw Chinese warships, including a destroyer, for the first time near the gas field in the East China Sea amid high tensions between the two countries.

"We are aware of most of their [China's] activities and we will do our utmost to monitor the situation," said Admiral Takashi Saito, the chief of staff of Japan's Maritime Self Defense Force.

They have studied their manual well and are going exactly by the book. Who gets the initial sympathy? Who gets to be perceived as the victim, who the nasty agressor. All played out and orchestrated by conductors in little caps.

It's so predictable tomorrows headlines have already been written:

Chinese Ships Fire Upon Poor Japanese MSDF Ships, They have to shoot back in self defence.

[Buraku]

Here's how I see it

its hard to tell how Uncle Sam will play this one
for example the USA supported and betrayed both sides during the Iraq Vs Iran conflicts

The Japanese have a mighty Navy perhaps one of most equipped and one of the best, but overall when we consider other areas, tanks, aircraft, infantry... the Japanese military is poorly experienced and quiet shitty. All that cash Nippon spends pays off old farts and money goes to pay high salaries

China will become a superpower, but some say the bubble will burst soon. I was perhaps wrong to say it will burst in 4 years time, because Chinese are doing very well and have learned much from SKorea and Japan, so are unlikely to make the same mistakes. The China mainland will continue to advance and grow for over a decade anyway.

The guys at the EU and NATO have the ability to become a superpower but never will because of political division, English vs French bureaucracy, and all those other problems, the Euros are only going to play a role as an economic powerhouse in the future.

In a military war - only a few nations on Earth could withstand a large attack or a small Nuke conflict, perhaps the Russian's could survive Moscow getting wasted, and still be ready for round2
or maybe the Chinese or Americans could afford to lose a major city and then return the strike.

the USA has radical Islamic and Arabian trouble now so it can't police SE Asia all the time
What would the USA do ? Bush has already done a U-turn on Taiwan, Japan hurt Uncle Sam's feelings with Beef, and Jenkins while Powell was getting very friendly with Chinese. If there is an Asian conflcit the USA might just play the Iran Vs Iraq game, to Haliburton or Lockheed it will be 110% profit while Gook kills Nip kills Chink kills Jap kills Charlie...when did the whitehouse ever care about Asians dying in wars ?
One of the major flaws with Japan is its lack of land mass and population density ( far greater trouble than China )
as one report recently said N Korea will lose any war (along with S Korea and Japan) over 100 million people are living between Kobe/Osaka and Tokyo so all you need is one big missile
wasn't it Mao that Welcomed an atomic war -
he said Nuke China and kill 500 million...but we still have millions more....and the Chinese left behind after the Nuclear winter will rebuilding the planet in China's image.



either people will survive WW3 or else cockroaches and rodents will inherit the Earth

[homesweethome]

Buraku wrote:

One of the major flaws with Japan is its lack of land mass and population density ( far greater trouble than China )
as one report recently said N Korea will lose any war (along with S Korea and Japan) over 100 million people are living between Kobe/Osaka and Tokyo so all you need is one big missile

You have hit ground zero again B. No doubt about it.


Just wait for the early sunrise, and all will be well.

[blackcat]

given the current political climate....wait a few years and you will be watching it on TV....or taking part!

[homesweethome]

[Buraku]

A top grade US guided missile destroyer arrived at one of China's main ports Tuesday as part of efforts by the two countries to increase military-to-military exchanges.

US warship arrives in China for visit

The USS Curtis Wilbur, an Arleigh Burke class Aegis guided missile destroyer will spend several days at Qingdao, a key port of China's North Fleet, officials said.

"This is an opportunity for the US personnel to meet their counterparts in the People's Liberation Army navy," US navy officials said.

"The port call will provide the crew of more than 300 sailors aboard USS Curtis Wilbur a chance for sightseeing and cultural exchanges."



http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/showthread.php?t=thread_deleted

Japan China Naval War- Who Would Win ?

[homesweethome]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GI14Ad02.html
Pretty good read if your into it.

China beefs up its navy

A number of advanced warships will gradually in the next two years come into service in the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN). The bulk of these ships will belong to two new guided missile destroyer classes called 052B and 052C. The 052C will be fitted with an advanced integrated air-defense system, supposedly similar to the US Aegis phased-array radar display, with a high capability to engage multiple targets simultaneously.

Evolution of the Chinese fleet
Chinese shipyards have already completed two 052C class ships, which are expected to be commissioned this year. It is probable that the PLAN intends to bring at least six ships of this class into service, deploying them in the three main operative battle groups that form the bulk of Beijing's fleet. This strengthening of forces will constitute a notable improvement in the performance of China's high-seas forces. The 052C class warship is equipped with an air-defense system based on a sensor apparently similar

to the Aegis device and equipped with an HQ9 surface-to-air missile (SAM), considered a long-range vertically launched missile with a 90-kilometer range (56 miles).

The HQ9 will be installed in eight vertical-launch-system, revolver-like stations (six forward, two aft), each with six missiles. Destroyers of this class will also have the capability to conduct long-range surface war missions using two kinds of surface-to-surface missiles (SSMs): the HN3 (a modern cruise missile with a range of 2500 kilometers or 1553 miles and capable of delivering a conventional or nuclear warhead) and the YJ12 (a supersonic missile with a range of 200 kilometers (124 miles). Also, if air defense will be the main duty of 052C class ships, the presence of a variable depth sonar array is expected to give them good anti-submarine warfare performance.

Deployment of this class is proceeding parallel with the construction and acquisition of a number of new surface and submarine vessels. This emerging situation suggests some foreign policy scenarios related to Beijing's moves in the next years.

In regard to China's surface fleet (currently consisting of 64 large combatant units: 21 destroyers and 43 frigates), for the next decade Beijing will be committed to the demanding process of replacing with more modern units obsolete ships, that had for so long reduced the Chinese Navy to a mere coastal fleet. For this reason, PLAN continues to bring into service units of Russian Sovremenny class destroyers, while pursuing the construction of 052B and 052C class warships, in addition to the construction of a completely new ship, being built in China's Dalian shipyard, that is expected to be very large and loaded with heavy surface armament (probably similar to Russia's Slava class cruisers).

At the moment, the creation of an extensive ship-borne air force by building and deploying aircraft carriers does not seem to have priority in China. Beijing appears more interested in studying foreign equipment (as in the case of the aircraft carrier Varyag, a former Soviet carrier initially acquired from Ukraine, which is badly deteriorated and only 70% completed in terms of becoming militarily operational) and then proceeding, in the future and without particular haste, to build its first domestically built aircraft carrier.

For its underwater fleet (currently consisting of 57 units: 51 diesel submarines (SS) and six nuclear powered attack submarines or SSN), PLAN is following the same pattern of its surface forces. With significant help from Russia, PLAN is modernizing the diesel sub fleet as highlighted by the decision to acquire eight other Kilo class boats, following the first four-unit batch purchased during the 1990s; as for Sovremennys, the possibility of having and deploying top units (in their category) will enable the Chinese fleet to achieve a considerable upgrade in both operative effectiveness and technological standards (in particular in the sensor and weapon fields).

PLAN, at the same time, is proceeding with the construction of diesel submarines based on domestic projects (Type 039 and 039A), which has been slowed down by a number of problems discovered in the planning phase. However, in the next few years, this process will give rise to the complete replacement of the large but ineffective diesel submarine force (packed with old Soviet-design vessels) with a modern and efficient diesel fleet. The building of the new SSN Type 93 class is proceeding in the same direction; these vessels, according to PLAN's intentions, should allow a significant improvement in Chinese submarine warfare capabilities, especially if the rumors suggesting that the Type 93 class can perform like the Soviet Victor III class or even like the early US Los Angeles class are confirmed.

It is important to note that construction of the new Type 094 nuclear powered ballistic missile class submarines (SSBN) is proceeding very slowly, even if China can now deploy one unit of this kind (Xia-class).

Regional crisis and the protection of sea lines of communication
The naval construction plan as a whole indicates that the duties that PLAN will be called upon to tackle in the next few years will be the protection of sea lines of communication to keep open the "choke points" relevant to China's trade flow, and power projection in areas identified as vital for China's national interests. All these tasks coincide with China's anxiety to acquire and protect the necessary natural resources (especially oil) to sustain the growing energy requirements of its national industrial system. Increased dependence on overseas resources will bring Beijing to require a greater effort by Chinese naval forces to protect the trade flows and show the flag in ports of countries that are considered important trading partners.

Moreover, PLAN will be required to conduct long-range missions in the open sea to defend exclusive economic zones and to control areas with uncertain sovereignty, as in the case of the Spratley Islands. These isolated islands, situated in the South China Sea, are claimed by China, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam and the Philippines, due principally to the rich oil deposits believed to be located there. The ships commissioned by PLAN will enable China to conduct missions of this kind, with the aim of deploying a fleet overwhelmingly superior to those of all other Asiatic countries (especially Taiwan) with the exception of the Indian and Japanese navies, which Beijing can try, at least, to counterbalance.

The submarine fleet will have the same duties as surface vessels, but is also expected to be assigned the hard task of facing the "traditional" Taiwanese adversary and, supposedly, coping with US battle groups. In fact, it appears that Beijing discarded the possibility of deploying a limited number of aircraft carriers (which would appear excessive in relation to other regional navies) since they would have little hope of prevailing in an engagement with US naval forces. This explains why China's aircraft carrier planning and construction is slowing in pace. Indeed, Beijing now prefers a well-stocked fleet of diesel submarines and nuclear powered submarines to have the difficult role of exerting some deterrence against American ships in case of a crisis.

Following this path, China will rise to a respectable level of underwater power, partially repeating the Soviet strategy during the Cold War. However, unlike the past Soviet submarine fleet (essentially dedicated to attacking NATO forces and protecting bastions full of SSBNs), Chinese submarine forces seem to be assigned the role of supporting surface forces - in their attempts to control sea lines of communication, with the additional mission of trying to exert some form of counter-power against US forces.

In this context, moreover, the Taiwan issue requires careful examination. In fact, the expansion and improvement of the Chinese submarine fleet, especially in diesel submarine numbers, can give Beijing an additional card to play against Taipei under the form of a submarine blockade. Such a blockade is potentially very hard to neutralize and cope with, even for Taiwan's respectable anti-submarine warfare forces; this strategy can exert stronger pressure than diplomatic threats, but is not comparable to a real attempt at invasion, hazardous and hard to carry out - and also fraught with unforeseeable political and military consequences.

Conclusion
The Chinese fleet's evolution in the coming years suggests that PLAN will be essentially concerned with protecting sea trade with the aim of assuring an uninterrupted flow of energy resources to satisfy the needs most dependent on overseas resources and safeguarding sea lines of communication. The enlargement and modernization of the Chinese fleet will inevitably alarm surrounding countries and other regional powers (such as India and Australia) and will oblige other states to renew their surface and submarine forces. However, it appears unlikely that PLAN can, or will, become a force with global projection (notably far behind the US Navy's capabilities, or those of the Soviet Navy during the 1980s) in the next decade.

The chief missions that PLAN will be called on to perform are eminently regional, such as power projection to support claims to areas of dubious sovereignty, but with rich subsoil resources (such as the Spratley Islands), to achieve the same operative capability as the more powerful Asian fleets, and ability to engage such a demanding adversary as the Taiwanese fleet (able to perform at high levels due to continuous acquisition of American equipment). In relation to US Navy battle groups, PLAN can, at most, aim for the possibility of exerting some form of deterrence (especially through the use of submarine forces), thus refuting all those who, since the beginning of the 21st century, have imagined American and Chinese battle groups confronting one another to decide which state will rule over the Pacific Ocean.

[Tsuru]

From the same site:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/FB12Ad07.html

An interesting read for people with interests in Japan

[homesweethome]

[homesweethome]

http://www.rednova.com/news/science/243374/japans_demand_for_chinese_gas_data_reasonable_energy_chief/

Japan's Demand for Chinese Gas Data Reasonable: Energy Chief
Sep. 18--TOKYO -- Japan's demand that China hand over concrete data on its ongoing gas projects is not unreasonable because the area of resource development relates to a dispute over sovereignty, a senior Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry official said.

"When we discuss the boundary issue between the nations from the viewpoint of sovereignty, we need facts as a basis," Nobuyori Kodaira, the head of the METI's Natural Resources and Energy Agency, said in a recent interview with Kyodo News.

A report in Sankei News also said that members of the Japanese government were planning to ask for financial compensation from China.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/FG27Dh03.htm

As tensions increased, Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing proposed when first visiting Japanese Foreign Minister Yoriko Kawaguchi on June 22 that China and Japan cooperate in exploring the oil and natural gas reserves in the East China Sea. But instead of accepting that offer, Kawaguchi requested that China provide the exact locations, depths and other related data of its offshore drillings underway in the East China Sea, fearing lest that China may have violated Japan's interests in tapping marine resources. But Li did not give any further details, according to the Hong Kong press reports.

The Japanese government appeared to conclude that China is collecting oceanographic data for possible submarine warfare around that area, which Japan considers strategically essential for China to boost its military presence vis-a-vis Taiwan as well as the United States, according to conservative Japanese media, such as the Sankei Shimbun. The disputed gas field is in the vicinity of Taiwan and the disputed Senkaku Islands, which are claimed by both countries. The Japanese government seems to believe this was why China has refused to give any data and information on its oil and gas development in the region.

So here you have a classic example of govspeak throught the media. Japan wants money for China tapping the gas fields and feels threatened by the lack of information China is willing to provide. The reason may be future submarine warfare intelligence, but some feel the Chinese submarine fleet could be taken care of in about 40 minutes by the Japanese. They may be able to accomplish a 60 or even 80 percent kill rate but, I have my doubts as any sub commander given a mission will put survival of his boat as the first priority and accomplishing the mission as the second. Both may be done at the same time. No it is much too complicated in real life to call in any simplistic phrase, war doesn't work that way, which is the way it seems to be going.

[Buraku]

http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forum/album ... 08db4e.jpg[/img:41b4271f96]
The USA has also changed its tune, Armitage said the USA might not defend Taiwan, while Powell says the USA and China relations are best for more than 30 years. Yet some say the Japanese spend more than China, but where does the cash go in Japan's very expensive military ? the money goes to pay high salaries and oyaji pensions. Japanese systems like the F-2 fighter ( stolen F16 design ) and the Type 90 tank are hideously overpriced due to Japanese corruption, and the PC code of social harmony where excessive obasan labor must be used on assembly. The Chinese have Yuan class diesel submarines, Nuke warheads, 40 amphibious lift vessels, 10 million strong China militia, Chinese ICBM nuclear missiles, 7,060 MBT- Tanks- Armour carriers, MIRV Nukes, 468,800 Airforce...and soon the EU arms ban on China might be lifted
http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forum/album ... 27cf51.jpg[/img:41b4271f96]
http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=1269

[homesweethome]

Pentagon Revises Nuclear Strike Plan
A doctrine allowing the US pre-emptive use of nuclear weapons in the event of a WMD threat to the country is under development and is awaiting confirmation by Donald Rumsfeld.

The option for the use of nuclear weapons would be open if an enemy was using or about to use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against its forces or civilian population, or as a way to destroy the WMD threat.

The philosophy would be designed to work with tactical nuclear weapons whose primary use is underground WMD bunkers. Congress has yet to endorse the warheads because they say it would make it more likely that such weapons would be used or proliferated.

http://www.spacewar.com/2005/050919214757.9fpo4vad.html
Pentagon pulls draft that discusses pre-emptive use of nukes from website

An unclassified draft of a US nuclear doctrine review that spells out conditions under which US commanders might seek approval to use nuclear weapons has been removed from a Pentagon website, a spokesman said Monday.

[homesweethome]

[Buraku]

Invasion of Tibet.

Most of the rest is true
This Tibet bullshit is one of the few bones I'd pick, You can't invade a place you've owned for hundreds of years
I've spoken with people from Australia, Vietnam, India, Europe, the States and Canada on this issue

and there is a clear picture, it seems China has a bigger claim to Tibet than the whites have to Australia or the Whitehouse has claim to Texas, California, Mississippi and North Dakota
...yeah China did bad shit in Tibet but they've been doing it and ruling it long before the Yanks ruled N.America
Even India - a nation that is China's rival says Tibet is Chinese
The big problem was that Uncle Sam was so anti-Commie that it sometimes shot itself in the foot like El Salvador....Tibet was a CIA mcCarthyism operation and they had trained locals to blow up bridges, conducted raids into China, and continued terrorist attacks...they failed and China responded with Tanks and guns
If you're gonna fight an independence war you don't fight like that and you don't double cross people and betray locals like the USA did in South Vietnam when they ran away and left Vietnam in shit.

Well the West is starting to love China now - money talks

China has now overtaken Japan !( remember that Japan got off its ass after WW2 thanks to efforts of Aussies and the USA and others rebuilding, and giving them money )
no nation could even half match the speed and amount of development china has achieved in such little time, it simply is incredible.
and yes, that definelty beats japan's development speed

[Oradea]

So, it goes without saying that the Japanese and the Chinese can not possibly coexist in this small continent of Asia.

My question is this:

When it comes down to it, and war breaks out, who's gonna kick who's Ass. Will China steamroller over this fair concrete archipilego? Or will the Japanese join ranks and march through Beijing?