1946 - NZ Forces in Japan

[Mulboyne]

Wally Ruffell with children at a country school about 20 miles from Yamaguchi (1946).
Memories of Japan In Yamaguchi with 25 Battery by WL Ruffell
...Generally speaking the tradesmen worked well, but some of the labourers proved 'awkward,' and had to be 'encouraged' by Tom who carried a one-inch thick bamboo stick for the purpose. If a Jap gave trouble I would say, "Tom, bamboo stick," whereupon Tom would deliver two or three sharp swipes across the awkward one's backside while I covered him with my pistol in case of trouble. Of course such treatment was highly illegal, but I was not prepared to stand any nonsense...Japanese propaganda had indeed 'painted' us. When a few of us took our first stroll from the barracks into the city all the 'mums' screamed at their kids playing in the street to come inside - and slammed the doors behind them! When I asked Ted the reason for this peculiar behaviour he said the Japanese Government had told the population that all New Zealanders were black, that we were all cannibals, and that we particularly liked small children!
...In another of our operations (a legitimate one), we struck trouble with Jap labourers. The latrines for our barrack block were of the 'deep hole variety,' i.e. each consisted of a shed with a row of built-in seats located over a trench. When the latter filled up a new trench was dug, the shed shifted over it, and the old trench filled in. On this occasion we had reached the stage when the squad was about to fill in the old trench, when I happened to glance down at the contents. There to my loudly-expressed annoyance were two of my shovels which had 'disappeared' plus a number of other useful articles, including a Jap rifle and a sword. So I ordered the squad to descend into the excreta and rescue the gear lying therein. The reaction was not unexpected. There followed much hissing, muttering, and loud complaints that to do so would cause them to 'lose face', which they could not possibly do. But rescue the articles they did, with the aid of our pistol-bamboo stick drill. I then ordered them to wash everything in disinfectant. If looks could have killed.....The sword was rather a good one, and after obtaining a certificate from the BC that I had obtained it honestly I brought it back to New Zealand where it later fetched a very good price...more...

[Mulboyne]

[Charles]

...I ordered the squad to descend into the excreta and rescue the gear lying therein. The reaction was not unexpected. There followed much hissing, muttering, and loud complaints that to do so would cause them to 'lose face', which they could not possibly do. But rescue the articles they did, with the aid of our pistol-bamboo stick drill. I then ordered them to wash everything in disinfectant. If looks could have killed.....The sword was rather a good one, and after obtaining a certificate from the BC that I had obtained it honestly I brought it back to New Zealand where it later fetched a very good price...

BCOF also warned us not to drink Japanese spirits, especially whisky, as cases of poisoning had occurred. The poisoners' technique was to drill a hole in the bottom of the bottle, insert the poison, then plug the hole - a nasty trap for the unwary.

Gosh, I wonder why anyone would want to poison soldiers that made people crawl in trenches full of shit to retrieve war loot.

[Big Booger]

...I ordered the squad to descend into the excreta and rescue the gear lying therein. The reaction was not unexpected. There followed much hissing, muttering, and loud complaints that to do so would cause them to 'lose face', which they could not possibly do. But rescue the articles they did, with the aid of our pistol-bamboo stick drill. I then ordered them to wash everything in disinfectant. If looks could have killed.....The sword was rather a good one, and after obtaining a certificate from the BC that I had obtained it honestly I brought it back to New Zealand where it later fetched a very good price...

BCOF also warned us not to drink Japanese spirits, especially whisky, as cases of poisoning had occurred. The poisoners' technique was to drill a hole in the bottom of the bottle, insert the poison, then plug the hole - a nasty trap for the unwary.

Gosh, I wonder why anyone would want to poison soldiers that made people crawl in trenches full of shit to retrieve war loot.

Have a read charles

I think you will find the treatment doled out by some Kiwi "war criminal" far more palatable than Surviving the Sword.

They didn't ass rape any soldiers... give them any water treatment, starve them, behead them, burn them to death in their barracks, shove knives up the vaginas of civilian women, or impale little children...

The author makes some note of this in his article:

If any reader takes exception to our actions let him or her remember the thousands of prisoners-of-war the Japanese Army starved and worked to death - or murdered - in their POW camps.

They forced prisoners to retrieve items that the PRISONER's themselves probably threw in that latrine to begin with.

Besides, it was a shitty job but someone had to do it.

[Socratesabroad]

...I ordered the squad to descend into the excreta and rescue the gear lying therein.

The 'gear' here being the two shovels, gov't property, that the Kiwis were responsible for. The gun and sword were loot or booty, i.e. a sheer bonus.

So Charles, although I'd stand by ya on just about anything, on this 'war criminal' thing ya got to pull yer head out o' yer ass, mate.

As BB explains, the treatment from the Kiwis wasn't nearly so monstrous as you suggest. In comparison, I'd much rather have been a German/Japanese prisoner of the Allies or even an Allied prisoner of the Germans (mortality rate of 3-8%) than an Allied prisoner of the Japanese (mortality rate of over 25%) or a civilian under Japanese military rule (God only knows).

As one of the few people here who's 1) served and 2) seen action (albeit very, very minor, sad to say), I can say that the Kiwi's stuff had me laughing in quite a few places. A good soldier's story, if you will.

And I'm ecstatic to see that scrounging isn't limited to us Yanks and that non-comms run the show regardless of (or in spite of) the presence of officers.

[Charles]

The 'gear' here being the two shovels, gov't property, that the Kiwis were responsible for. The gun and sword were loot or booty, i.e. a sheer bonus.

Yeah, there's an old joke about that.
Two guys go into a bathroom to take a leak. As they approach the urninals, they see a dime sitting in the puddle of festering piss, cigarette butts, and other unidentifiable slime. One of them asks the other, "would you stick your hand in there for a dime?" The other guy fishes in his pocket, and tosses a quarter in the urinal, and says "no, but for 35 cents..."

What you are failing to observe here is that the kiwi was part of the Occupation and the WAR WAS OVER. So don't go defending some sadistic asshole who wanted to get revenge by brutalizing innocent civilians. That's just sick.

[Greji]

What you are failing to observe here is that the kiwi was part of the Occupation and the WAR WAS OVER. So don't go defending some sadistic asshole who wanted to get revenge by brutalizing innocent civilians. That's just sick.

Revenge? Brutalizing? A smack on the arse with a bamboo stick and sending them into the latrine to fish out the equipment? You don't get it do you Charles. Go back to your books, music and photography, the real world might just be a tad beyond your reach. I agree with Socrates, I have seen the elephant too, and can't go along with you this time!

[Charles]

Revenge? Brutalizing? A smack on the arse with a bamboo stick and sending them into the latrine to fish out the equipment?

You omitted the second guy with the gun backing up the guy with the bamboo stick. Did you even read the quote on FG, let alone the website? I bet you'd feel brutalized if you were forced at gunpoint to wade through a trench full of shit.

The world is, unfortunately, full of assholes who want to boast about what kind of degenerates they were during wartime. And that's one of the worst parts of war, soldiers become dehumanized beasts and then they go back to civilian life. I have known quite a few assholes who constantly boasted about the war crimes they committed, and how they raped, pillaged, and plundered their way through the war.

But I have also known a few men of honor who would never ever speak of their war experiences in the war. One guy I worked with was a WWII vet, but he'd never speak of the war ever. Someone finally told me he won a Bronze Star in the Battle of the Bulge.

Why is it that despicable bastards are always quick to tell their war stories, while the men with really amazing, world-history-changing stories never want to speak of them?

[Greji]

You omitted the second guy with the gun backing up the guy with the bamboo stick. Did you even read the quote on FG, let alone the website? I bet you'd feel brutalized if you were forced at gunpoint to wade through a trench full of shit.

You missed the operative statement. These people were POW's. They were under gunpoint all the time anyway. Also, your definition of "brutalized" is obviously much different than mine. As Soc pointed out, the underlying issue appeared to be that those poor J-people had thrown the material in the shitter to begin with and hence, it would only be appropriate that they, or their colleagues, should be made to retrieve it. It was again a position of POW's. They would not be allowed to get away with it. Surely, you wouldn't shoot them for their offenses, but on the other hand, you couldn't allow them to flaunt disobedience where their peers could see it.

The world is, unfortunately, full of assholes who want to boast about what kind of degenerates they were during wartime. And that's one of the worst parts of war, soldiers become dehumanized beasts and then they go back to civilian life. I have known quite a few assholes who constantly boasted about the war crimes they committed, and how they raped, pillaged, and plundered their way through the war.

But I have also known a few men of honor who would never ever speak of their war experiences in the war. One guy I worked with was a WWII vet, but he'd never speak of the war ever. Someone finally told me he won a Bronze Star in the Battle of the Bulge.

Why is it that despicable bastards are always quick to tell their war stories, while the men with really amazing, world-history-changing stories never want to speak of them?

I can agree with this. These liars abound. Vets can spot these assholes quite easily. They are just little wannabe's who are to stupid to realize that they did not really wannabe a part of what they are lying about, having never seen the nicities of war. They live in a motion picture world. If you've been there, you have a different view of war and it is not necessarily just honor that keep some people from talking about the experience.

The Kiwi in this story is just telling an account and as Soc said is a pretty good "War Story". He's not laying any claims to John Wayne-ism, but is telling it like it was from his point of view at a time when people thought and wrote like that.

You still have to remember that at the so-called cessation of hostilities, Japan still had over a million people under arms in the military and they also had civil defense teams that had been proparing for the invasion of mainland Japan. They were not all the beaten and poor ragged surviors of the war that some people would like to paint them as.

But of course this is just IMHO

[Charles]

You missed the operative statement. These people were POW's.

Would you just go read the article ferchrissake? Carefully please? The people who were beaten at gunpoint were civilian laborers.

Generally speaking the tradesmen worked well, but some of the labourers proved 'awkward,' and had to be 'encouraged' by Tom who carried a one-inch thick bamboo stick for the purpose.

[Greji]

Would you just go read the article ferchrissake? Carefully please? The people who were beaten at gunpoint were civilian laborers.

I go back to the smack on the arse with the bamboo, probably the kendo practice type. Is this "beaten", or "brutality"? He's not talking about pounding the asshole into the ground with a mallet!

The entire male population of Japan was enlisted in some form in civil defense corps by the end of the war. The students in school (reference the execution of Allied POWs in Okinawa by gakusei of the school corps).

They were all generally POWs, the luckier ones were given the chance to work at wages. But, still this is why armed guards, or "gunpoint" as you like.

The civil defense corps were also largely responsible at the end of the war for hiding weapons and munitions (for future use?) that the military could not spare the manpower. The people who preceded me in my old section spent years searching for and dismantling these weapons with no assistance from the indiginous people. A defeated people?

You are along way from war crimes and criminals here Charles. If you believe the allied forces allowed and condoned war crimes, there is no way anyone can argue with you, because you are not going to buy any answer that disagrees, but we are along way from be-heading reticent prisoners here.

You said to read the article, but have only choosen to excerpt certain portions of the write-up to discuss. Does the rest of that Kiwi's write-up really sound like a war criminal at work?

[dimwit]

You missed the operative statement. These people were POW's.

Would you just go read the article ferchrissake? Carefully please? The people who were beaten at gunpoint were civilian laborers.

Generally speaking the tradesmen worked well, but some of the labourers proved 'awkward,' and had to be 'encouraged' by Tom who carried a one-inch thick bamboo stick for the purpose.

Well, a lot of the laborers and trademan in 1946 were soldiers in 1945.
I think you are being somewhat disengenerous towrds the Kiwis. This was 1946 and in many places in Japan and Germany people were sill fighting their own private secord world wars. Paranoia was rampant and there was, yes I admit, a desire to rub Japanese noses in defeat often used as a way of demiltarizing them.

The consequences of the treatment of Japanese is that today people of this age tend to be far more strident anti-war then most Japanese.

[Charles]

You said to read the article, but have only choosen to excerpt certain portions of the write-up to discuss. Does the rest of that Kiwi's write-up really sound like a war criminal at work?

I cited the relevant passages, but I also omitted the weapons smuggling, black marketeering, whoring, and various other Courts Martial offenses. The guy is a total scum.

But I suppose I expect too much from uncivilized kiwis from the 1940s. And it was only after WWII that the US developed new war doctrines that strictly proscribed maltreatment of noncombatants and surrendered soldiers. It was a doctrine intended to put the US on a higher moral ground than its enemies, maybe they tortured and executed prisoners, but we didn't. We were the good guys.

Then that asshole Jorge Bush and his junta overthrew the American government, and things went all to hell.

[Greji]

Then that asshole Jorge Bush and his junta overthrew the American government, and things went all to hell.

All 60 million of them.

But you will be happy to know that your beloved Kiwi's think Bill Clinton is the best thing since peanut butter. At least they did during his visit.

[kurohinge1]

Memories of Japan In Yamaguchi with 25 Battery by WL Ruffell
...

Thanks for that link, Mulboyne-san.

I find those personal accounts of WWII fascinating. I was just reading about operation Mars last week.

Previous threads in FG have been equally fascinating - like " Monster Sub Found Off Hawaii ", etc.

Previous threads have also shown how easily history books can taint history, if they mention it at all. However, personal accounts add perspective and lots of small details.

Also last week, a documentary was on TV here that appears to have been based on this book: Love, War, and the 96th Engineers (Colored): The World War II Diaries of Captain Hyman Samuelson. In the documentary, one negro veteran was laughing about how the Japanese used to broadcast propaganda towards them at night, when they were on guard duty, but if the Japanese had only known that their white officers did not trust them with rifles and had only issued them with clubs (!!!), the Japanese could've just walked in and captured their camp.

And finally, this little snippet from about the Battle of the Coral Sea:

... the great Battle of the Coral Sea was to be the first naval engagement in history in which surface ships did not exchange a shot. Dive bombers and torpedo bombers launched from carriers was the new face of battle ... more

[Mulboyne]

I find those personal accounts of WWII fascinating

Not a personal account but "My Japan" (1945) is worth a look. Streaming or download links on the left of this page. Probably been posted before...

[Mulboyne]

I don't think the writer's behaviour was reprehensible but I was struck by this comment near the end:

At last came the welcome news that we were to return to New Zealand...We duly embarked on the Chitral for an uneventful trip which lasted about a fortnight...All the real 'baddies' were locked up in the ships 'brig' situated at the 'sharp end,' i.e. right in the bows. During the voyage I was in charge of the guard on these characters for 24 hours - armed with a rifle and 50 rounds...The prisoners had all been sentenced in Japan for various offences chief of which were armed robbery, rape and murder. The maximum sentence in each case, to be completed in New Zealand, did not exceed two years.

If this is accurate, I wonder whether there was a stated policy of lenient sentences for serious crimes and whether this applied in Germany too. Manpower was probably in short supply after the war so that may have been a consideration.

[ichigo partygirl]

No its just that the NZ justice system is fucken weak ass and a pushover, Even back then it was. You can outright murder someone in NZ and be out in little as 10years. Thats for first degree murder.

Charles im starting to think you just have a general problem with the Pacific area as a whole.