Japanese Profiency Test Pissing Contest

[Socratesabroad]

Is there a huge diff between L1 & L2?

Yeah, this is an interesting question. From what I can tell from the published percentages, the level 2 has been getting more difficult, and the level one easier (only very recently though).

Rumors like that re-surface every few years - level X is getting harder and another's getting easier. Until I see something from the test creators to that effect, then I'll simply chalk it up to rumors.

As for the difference, sorry I've only taken level 1 since it was previously required for uni entrance.

I heard theres no real point in doing L3or4, as any prospective employer would only be interesting in seeing a L1or2 cert?

Level 2 is proof that you've learned elementary Japanese and level 1 is proof that you've (supposedly) mastered rudimentary Japanese (keep in mind the level 1 joyo kanji are what every Japanese high school graduate should know).

What level 2 indicates:

Daily conversation ability in Japanese is required. (Japanese Language Proficiency Test Level 2 or above)

Level 1 indicates that "The examinee has mastered grammar to a high level, knows around 2,000 Kanji and 10,000 words, and has an integrated command of the language sufficient for life in Japanese society, providing an useful base for study at a Japanese university."
http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/prof-test.html

To get a Master of Japanese Interpreting and Translation, for example,

[hold] a certificate of the Japan Foundation's Japanese Language Proficiency Test Level 2 (Nihongo Nooryoku Shiken 2-Kyuu) or above.

[/quote]

So, a potential employer might consider level 2 and definitely level 1 but not other levels.

[amdg]

[emperor]

[Socratesabroad]

[amdg]

..is this qualification as widely recognised as the other?

Nope, not by any means. Monbusho, rightly or wrongly, holds the sway on any J-language testing in terms of worldwide recognition. But in any casual situation in Japan there are several aspects of the J.Test that you can show to be superior to other tests, if you have the inclination.

[Cubed]

Is there a huge diff between L1 & L2?

Yeah, this is an interesting question. From what I can tell from the published percentages, the level 2 has been getting more difficult, and the level one easier (only very recently though).

Rumors like that re-surface every few years - level X is getting harder and another's getting easier. Until I see something from the test creators to that effect, then I'll simply chalk it up to rumors.

Ah, hang on - that's an observation from their published stats (available as appendices in the more recent past papers).

The percentage passing level 1 jumped 10% between 2003-2004. The percentage of folks passing level 2 has consistently declined (but only because they've intended it to!) over the last four years as I read it.

Also for business the JETRO test is actually very good - each question has the same weighting, only they get more difficult and are all based on real situations (albeit in rather traditional Japanese company settings).

[Socratesabroad]

The percentage passing level 1 jumped 10% between 2003-2004. The percentage of folks passing level 2 has consistently declined (but only because they've intended it to!) over the last four years as I read it.

In relation to level 1, were the numbers of test-takers proportional? A spike in examinees would most likely lead to more people passing.

In the end, it doesn't really matter. If you interpret these stats to mean that level 2 is getting harder and level 1 easier, then why waste time with level 2? Just skip straight to level 1 - it should be easier [than it used to be], right?

[Mulboyne]

[drpepper]

I heard those same rumors 10+ years ago. It seems there is always something like that around.

As for when I took L2, well it was a couple years after I got here so I would have been 24-5 or so... The L1 test, as I mentioned before, I only took cause a friend wanted to do it, was maybe 5-6 years ago or so? So there was probably 5-6 years inbetween the two. I probably could have passed several years before that but had no need to take it so I didn't. I didn't study Japanese formally at all. I have never attended a Japanese school or whatever, I bought a few grammar books and picked up the rest in the streets.

As for other tests, I have heard that the Japanese/English translation proficiency tests are quite hard. Most professional translators (Japanese) only get to about the sub-L1. There are like the eiken in having sub levels.. jun-ikkyu etc..

[Cubed]

In relation to level 1, were the numbers of test-takers proportional? A spike in examinees would most likely lead to more people passing.

Ah, careful though ... a spike in test takers would produce a spike in people failing too, and they'd balance each other out.

If you think about it, the percentage passing the test should indicate difficulty in relation to the required pass mark (and difficulty of the test), the median will only tell you how good the sample group were as a whole (regardless of whether they passed).

In the end, it doesn't really matter. If you interpret these stats to mean that level 2 is getting harder and level 1 easier ...

It doesn't matter too much, but it does raise questions about what they belive they're testing - the required level of competence in Japanese doesn't change significantly over time, which leads me to ponder why the difficulty of a level should change over time ... ? A 10% jump in the passing rate is significant, and I don't think could be explained by a few rogue questions.

The important question I think is probably "Why is JEES changing the required proficiency standard of certain levels?". My wife says that it's because they want to keep foreigners out of Japan, and she says that with a straight face and without a hint of irony!

Am I reading too much into it? I don't think I am ... ?

why waste time with level 2? Just skip straight to level 1 - it should be easier [than it used to be], right?

Yes, that was the reason I wanted to ask you - I've been thinking about this question recently - thanks for your answers.

[Cubed]

[skyengines]

good luck to my fellow 1kyuu victims tomorrow (and all other victims!!)

[Cubed]

Good luck level 2 muppets!

If you can read between the lines you should fill them in.
-- advice from Dennis Ferguson,
UTCS Network Systems Specialist

It just doesn't matter!
-- head camp counselor (Bill Murray), Meatballs

[amdg]

Good luck level 2 muppets!

Thanks - But I suspect that I'll need more than luck this time (divine intervention?)

Post-game analysis anyone? I thought the listening section was pretty easy, but the final grammar secton just had me beat, too much reading necessary for a slow, stumbling reader like myself.

Highlight of the day - being 'yellow carded' by the nazi invigilator for chewing gum.

[skyengines]

I pretty much rocked 1kyuu. Had studied the kanji and grammar super hard and can read a lot of stuff so it was no big deal. Listening on the other hand was pretty tough! I estimate I probably got less than 2/3 of the listening. Still though, I'm confident that I passed.

Yellow carded for chewing gum!?!??!?!?! Any explanation given?

Girl in front of me was writing down her answers on a sheet for the very last section (considering she was in the front row, pretty dumb idea). Got snagged by the proctor and I'm pretty sure got screwed though I didn't really hear.

[amdg]

Yellow carded for chewing gum!?!??!?!?! Any explanation given?

Nah, just "Hey, do you have something in your mouth?" "Yes..." That's not allowed, yellow card". I wasn't about to talk back to the guy who could red card me out of there, like he did to the guy in front of me for cell-phone violations.

I guess gum is considered 'food', under the 'no eating or drinking' rule. Next time me and him are in a survival situation, he can have all the gum and I'll have all the rations.

Girl in front of me was writing down her answers on a sheet for the very last section (considering she was in the front row, pretty dumb idea). Got snagged by the proctor and I'm pretty sure got screwed though I didn't really hear.

Did you take the test in Osaka? I think it was my GF (or her supervisor) who nabbed her. If so, in that same room there was a chick who tried to start the test with her study notes on the desk. When told to take them off, she asked if she could just 'keep one'.

[Cubed]

The first section was agreed by a few of us to be straightforward. Lots of people saying "I studied those kanji - I was lucky".

The listening had a few sneaky questions - the art gallery/cafe question and business card question were very deceptive, and the interview time question was downright underhand.

The reading, as ever was a bitch.

The difference this year is that there were no easy sections - nowhere to make up for the hammering your score avergae is going to take from the reading section.

The level 2 is deifintely getting tougher, although we won't know for another 3 months

Thanks to Mulboyne "the white" and sillygirl "la vixen" for their consolation after the test.

[scooterboy]

[skyengines]

Here is how to pass the 1kyuu, seriously if you follow these general guidelines you will not have a problem with it.

First, the obvious recommendation is to pass 2kyuu, which really lays the basis for tackling the grammar and reading sections of the 1kyuu. Skipping 2kyuu, although I've seen some people recommend it, would seem to be extremely difficult to me. Honestly though, 2kyuu is hardly enough in terms of employment nowadays so maybe it's worth people's time.

You're going to need the following to pass the 1kyuu:

1) Kanzen Masta's Grammar and Kanji books for 1kyuu. Totally indispensable and hands-down the best study materials out there, I actually enjoyed using these books and learned a lot of words that I found use for. Other companies may have some decent texts but I can't really imagine anything better than Kanzen Masta. Do NOT wait to study the grammar, it's more important (and more difficult) than you think.

2) At least two practice tests. If you're as broke as I am, here's a strategy. Find a bookstore with seats (I recommend Junkudo in Osaka personally), grab as many practice tests as you can find. With a (preferably) Japanese friend, go over the kanji/goi/bunpou questions. When you're alone at home use some of the listening practice websites out on the web.

3) A decent bit of yomimono. I recommend reading a book every three months and reading a lot of Manga. For Manga I recommend Naniwa Kinyuudou which not only fucking rocks but has a lot of kinyuu yougo, useful for 1kyuu. Though if you're not in Kansai, the Kansaiben might fuck you.

4) Watch the goddamn television (especially the news) and as many movies as you can stand. The listening section is hella random, so try to watch a variety of stuff, even science stuff if you can.

5) Find some Japanese music you can tolerate, not easy, dissect the lyrics, listen to it, memorize it. If it's endurable, do karaoke with some drunks.

Depending on your level, I encourage you to start at least from 6 months from the test. I personally think it's pretty hard to go straight from 2kyuu to 1kyuu, especially if you were girigiri when you passed 2kyuu. But if you really want to try it start tomorrow.

Once I get my 1kyuu certificate I'm going to launch a complaint with the monbusho (or whatever agency handles this test) about the proctoring. People getting chewed out for talking after they handed in their answer sheets, hollered at for chewing gum etc., the fact that the test is only held once a year, the two and a half month waiting period for results (eiken gets results within 10 days) etc. is worth confronting them about. Watch they'll fuckin tear up my certificate ha!

[sillygirl]

Nice to have met ya, Cubed old chap

That last part on 2 was a fricking nightmare. Just filled in the last answer when they announced time up......

Oh well, can breathe easily til March...

[drpepper]

Here is how to pass the 1kyuu, seriously if you follow these general guidelines you will not have a problem with it.

First,...........snip..............

Once I get my 1kyuu certificate ....

LOL, funny. Here is how you pass.. once I pass.... maybe you should wait til Feb before giving out advice. Somebody will ask for proof you passed and if you don't well that will be some egg on your face..

[Cubed]

[amdg]

[skyengines]

Here is how to pass the 1kyuu, seriously if you follow these general guidelines you will not have a problem with it.

First,...........snip..............

Once I get my 1kyuu certificate ....

LOL, funny. Here is how you pass.. once I pass.... maybe you should wait til Feb before giving out advice. Somebody will ask for proof you passed and if you don't well that will be some egg on your face..

I failed the test last year by twenty points and studied most of this year for the test with a bunch of materials. There was nothing surprising on anything except listening. I'm very confident that I passed, but sure there's a chance I didn't. I'll be happy to post the certificate in Feb though.

[Cubed]

Examinations are not for teaching you. They are for testing you.

A good exam will actually do both.

[Mulboyne]

Good to meet you too, Cubed. As you know, I didn't take the test so I have no first hand experience as you do but, looking through your observations, I do wonder about a couple of points.

For a multiple choice question to be valid, there needs to be ONE correct answer and THREE incorrect answers.

I still disagree with this contention. In a multiple choice exam you need to choose the best answer. In many of the JLPT questions, another answer is possible but not appropriate or likely compared with the actual answer. You can talk about different "worldviews" but if you want to criticize the methodology then I think you need to come up with a concrete example of where an incorrect "possible" answer is better than the actual answer.

Also you say:

If you're testing grammar, test grammar. Don't mix it with cultural bias, moral bias or assumed knowledge. Sounds difficult to set such questions? Well A) that's part of an examiner's job...

and then you say:

The JEES people are having to make up more and more contrived dialogues to cover for the fact that some situations just don't contain complex vocabulary. Remember, this exam is to test your skills for use in the real world!

I appreciate your observations are about different sections but these two statements seem to me to contradict each other.

[kamome]

Cubed, why do you want to be spoon-fed on this exam? It's not supposed to be easy.

This is an exam that is supposed to rigorously test your knowledge of a complex language, not assist you in finding the answer. By forcing you to make key distinctions between two plausible answer choices, the exam is right on target. Forcing a test-taker to contend with ambiguities is a good way to test someone's knowledge of language, even if it means imposing certain fictions on the reader (such as made-up kanji or convoluted dialogue). You have to be the one to cut through red herrings and identify the crucial information.

Frankly, on an exam designed to separate the wheat from the chaff (the chaff in this case being people who are not as fluent as they think they are), just about everything is fair game--false kanji, surprising dialogues, etc. Unfair "trick" questions would be objectionable, but tricky questions should be legitimate in my opinion.

[Charles]

I've just posted this on the JLPT.com site, and here are my main bitchings about the test.

You can add yours too!

You have clearly failed to comprehend the methods used in the test. For example:

[*]Fictional comparisons to test grammar/kanji recognition

Using similar kanji which actually don't exist is not a valid way to test kanji recognition. The main reason (apart from again being of no pedagogic value) is the you'll never see those kanji next to their fictional counterparts in the real world. That alone invalidates the premise of the question as part of a test to qualify you to use your Japanese in the real world.

Yes, there is a reason why kanji are tested this way. It is a method designed to test your ability to PRODUCE kanji correctly, in an environment that does not permit direct testing of kanji production (since there is no written section of the exam). If you have a vague ability to recognize a kanji in context, that is easily confounded by giving you a choice between several similar kanji that are deliberately designed to take advantage of your weak ability to PRODUCE that specific kanji correctly. If you could produce (i.e. write) the kanji correctly from memory, you wouldn't have this problem.

[*]Hiding in ambiguity

For a multiple choice question to be valid, there needs to be ONE correct answer and THREE incorrect answers. If the question doesn't have three incorrect answers, it doesn't belong in a test.

Nope, that's not how it works. There are 4 answers, any or all of them may be "correct" but only one is the best answer. The test is deliberately designed to trick you into wasting time considering answers that are not the best answer.

I tried to tell you all this stuff before the exam, but you wouldn't listen. So the JLPT kicked your ass. The test is not supposed to be easy. If it was easy, anyone could pass. There would be no value in passing the test if there weren't thousands of losers who fail it every time.

[amdg]

[Charles]