naturalized citizen looking for other naturals

[aljones15]

Found this via boingboing (it's the guy who translated the otaku article). Anyway,

http://libationkowloon.blogspot.com/2006/04/turning-japanese.html

Apparently he and Aribto or whatever the legendary naturalized Hokkiado professor is, are trying to get various naturalized and perm residents together for information sharing. Searched and didn't find a direct link and this guy might post here, so ya never know.

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A

[Rudd-Crunch]

Been tied up with work and news stuff (there's a feature in next week's Newsweek) so haven't got round to putting the site together yet, but still plan to go ahead with it. If there's anything in particular you want to know then please ask.

[homesweethome]

Been tied up with work and news stuff (there's a feature in next week's Newsweek) so haven't got round to putting the site together yet, but still plan to go ahead with it. If there's anything in particular you want to know then please ask.

I read your post on 'Losing UK Passport' and found your reasoning very persuasive. In it you say:

There are a lot of other minor perks like this too, which I'm sure I'll find out about once I'm accepted.

Now that you have had your J citizenship for a while I guess, what are the minor perks if any?

Do you mind telling us why you decided to so fervently pursue the nullification of your former passport? Did this assist you in getting Japanese citizenship?

Best Regards,
Thx

[Rudd-Crunch]

That's a good question actually, and something I hadn't really thought about since I wrote it. It's only been 2 months since I was notified so probably a little early to say but off the top of my head, I have noticed a few unpredicted advantages, such as:

1) The whole not-carrying-an-alien-reg-card thing. I'd never noticed it before, but I was quite surprised how much of a slave I'd become to carrying the card every time I left the house. Though I think nothing of it now, the day I handed the card back to the ward office (which you HAVE to do before you can register for a koseki) and walked outside without it, it was as if I had been set free from some kind of psychological chains. I dunno, maybe that one's just me.

2) Opinions being given more weight. I have already been contacted by news agencies asking my opinions as a foreign born citizen on certain issues. It probably helps that I was known to Debito long before I even thought about taking citizenship, and he's diverted some enquiries my way. Not sure if this is necessarily a good thing or not yet, but publicity over something other than my drunken behaviour has to be good for my career.

3) Housing. Looking at buying a place, and the bank is way more willing to give me a loan now. Obvious really. Likewise overseas travel agencies - the inflated foreigner prices no longer apply to me, though I should really purposely avoid the places that do that...

4) Voting. Never gave it that much thought before, but it's more important than you might think. Just the other day, there were people collecting signatures outside my local station to try and introduce a new law concerning something I felt very strongly about. Because it related to a legal process, all signatures had to come from people listed in the electoral roll for that area. That would be me then. If it was two months ago, I wouldn't have had that opportunity to make my voice heard. And as it turns out, they've got enough signatures now to get the wheels of justice turning.

5) Kick up the arse. My arse. Since I got level 2 of the JLPT back in 2000, I've been a bit lazy about Japanese study, and even drifted through level 1 a year and a half ago with a borderline pass. As a citizen, I've come to realise just how much my skills are lacking so I'm going to retake the JLPT this year to try and get a better score. People around me are also a little more openly critical (not always good) - ability to communicate a point really isn't enough anymore.

These are all very personal things of course. Different people are going to find different perks.

Concerning former citizenships, renunciation is a requirement, and they actually halt the entire process while they wait for certification. With some countries such as the US that don't have a formalised renunciation process you're given 2 years grace after citizenship is sealed, but (I'm guessing) Geneva Convention signatories have to do it in advance. If I wanted, I could take my old citizenship back now, but I don't really want to to be honest.

[FG Lurker]

I found your replies interesting, but didn't see anything that would push me from PR (my current status) to a J-cit.

1) The whole not-carrying-an-alien-reg-card thing. I'd never noticed it before, but I was quite surprised how much of a slave I'd become to carrying the card every time I left the house.

You're still going to have to carry at least a driver's license though, one that has been re-issued to show you as Japanese. If not when you eventually get asked for your gaijin card no cop is going to believe you are Japanese. They'll drag you off to the copshop while they check it out. Is that fair? No, of course not. But if it was me, I'd sooner not waste a few hours of my life (or much more if it is at night) waiting for them to verify who I am.

2) Opinions being given more weight. I have already been contacted by news agencies asking my opinions as a foreign born citizen on certain issues.

I'd sooner avoid this personally, but it would be a bonus for some I suppose.

3) Housing. Looking at buying a place, and the bank is way more willing to give me a loan now. Obvious really.

UFJ lent me 40mil with no need of a guarantor. They even gave me 1 percentage point off their standard loan rate for the life of the loan. (Instead of 2% I pay 1%, instead of 5% I would pay 4%, etc)

Likewise overseas travel agencies - the inflated foreigner prices no longer apply to me, though I should really purposely avoid the places that do that...

I find this kind of bizarre really, but maybe I have missed something.

4) Voting.

Voting is the only reason I would consider becoming a J-cit.

If I could keep my Canadian passport then it would be a no-brainer, but at this point (11 years in Japan) I can't see giving it up. Maybe in another 10 years or so my feelings will change.

[Rudd-Crunch]

Funnily enough (I tested this) when the police ask to see alien reg, if you tell them you're a citizen they have no choice but to believe you and leave it at that. I asked them (kind of out of habit) if they wanted me to produce proof from home, and they said it's not necessary as I'm a citizen. Dunno if that's a legal requirement or if they just don't understand the concept of double bluffing, but it happened a few months ago in Saitama that a complete Japanese woman who was basically just shy got detained for not carrying a card, and when it came to light she was a citizen it got reported on very harshly by a number of national publications and the police were put into a very embarassed situation.

This though is exactly what I meant about being a slave to the alien reg card. As a serious non-citizen, you can't imagine it being safe to walk the streets without the correct ID. I do so all the time without a care in the world, and the police won't touch me.

As for the rest, I mentioned that these are just a handful of minor perks I'd found that I wasn't anticipating, that only really make sense to me. The actual reasons for taking citizenship in the first place were totally unrelated to these.

[AssKissinger]

In seven years I never once got asked for my gaijin card. I still kept it on me though.

[homesweethome]

Thanks Rudd for your comments. I never gave it a second thought (J citizenship) until the last couple elections rolled around. I always espoused to the AK philosophy of voting "like farting in a hurricane" but now I am not so sure. One of the local Politico's was standing in front of a store and asked me how I felt about such and such local issue, I said something about not being able to vote and he just turned his back on me. My opinion had no value whatsoever. Even if I could vote I don't know that it would make a difference, but at least I would have a right to have my voice heard, even if it has an accent.

[FG Lurker]

This though is exactly what I meant about being a slave to the alien reg card. As a serious non-citizen, you can't imagine it being safe to walk the streets without the correct ID. I do so all the time without a care in the world, and the police won't touch me.

Does it bother you to have to carry your drivers license when you drive? I don't see the difference, really.

Voting would be the big one for me, and would likely be the only thing that would push me towards applying at some point down the road. I've not had bank problems since getting PR, and I'd sooner travel on a Canadian passport than a Japanese one. A big white guy with a Japanese passport is likely to get a bit too much attention from Customs/Immigration.

[Rudd-Crunch]

As I said, they're just perks that I found out after the event. I normally have a driving licence in my wallet, but I don't always carry my wallet every time I leave the house. If I'm going for an evening run for example then I'd rather not be carrying anything more than necessary. Back in the old days, leaving the card at home was unfathomable, so it is nice to be free of any obligation to carry ID.

[FG Lurker]

As I said, they're just perks that I found out after the event. I normally have a driving licence in my wallet, but I don't always carry my wallet every time I leave the house. If I'm going for an evening run for example then I'd rather not be carrying anything more than necessary. Back in the old days, leaving the card at home was unfathomable, so it is nice to be free of any obligation to carry ID.

You should always carry ID. You're a lot more likely to get hit by a car when out running than you are to be asked by a cop for ID. Not carrying any ID is unwise, IMO.

[Addition:]
Personally I just think the whole gaijin card thing is overblown. When I was first here I was damn happy to have a gaijin card. Without it I would have had no Japanese ID! Good luck getting anything from a video rental card to a keitai if you have no ID. It just sits in my wallet, and my wallet goes everywhere I go (unless I am out where my avatar photo was taken...there are no cops there).

[Rudd-Crunch]

Incidentally, all the new Japanese passports have IC chips which contain a scan of your likeness. Given the supposed impossibility of forging these, I'd say that customs aren't likely to give any special problems. Besides, they've seen enough people of Asian/Indian/African etc. appearance holding European or American passports to know that you really can't for any official purposes judge somebody's nationality by their skin colour. If any attention is to be drawn to it all, it's most likely to go like this:

Immigration: You're Japanese?
Me: Yes. I naturalised.
Immigration: Fascinating. Purpose of stay? (etc. etc.)

You see, it's really our own prejudices that assume that a white person with Japanese citizenship will be treated with suspicion. Reverse the situation - take a Japanese long term of resident of Britain or the US taking citizenship and nobody would give them a second glance.

[Rudd-Crunch]

You should always carry ID. You're a lot more likely to get hit by a car when out running than you are to be asked by a cop for ID. Not carrying any ID is unwise, IMO.

If I was that careful, I probably wouldn't leave the house period. Besides, if I went for a run and wasn't back within the hour, the girlfriend would be phoning the police and hospitals so in the event of an accident my identity would quickly become known. The issue though is of *legal obligation* - I'm no longer legally obliged to carry ID, and if the police ask I'm under no obligation to show them. It's one of those things you have to experience really.

[FG Lurker]

It's one of those things you have to experience really.

In 11 years I've never been asked, but even if I had been asked 10 times it still wouldn't be a reason to give up my Canadian citizenship.

That's the crux of it in the end...It's not the hassle of getting a Japanese passport, it is the requirement to give up my Canadian one.

[FG Lurker]

Incidentally, all the new Japanese passports have IC chips which contain a scan of your likeness.

Once all countries can read such a passport it will help.

You see, it's really our own prejudices that assume that a white person with Japanese citizenship will be treated with suspicion.

It's not me who would treat it with suspicion...and it is not some average guy like me who you would need to worry about!

Reverse the situation - take a Japanese long term of resident of Britain or the US taking citizenship and nobody would give them a second glance.

A tiny, tiny percentage of Japanese passport holders are non-Asians. The US and Britain have passport holders that have come from all over the world.

[Rudd-Crunch]

To reitterate again, not having to carry an alien reg card is a minor unanticipated perk I discovered after the event. My actual reasons for taking citizenship were much more involved. Having to give up British citizenship took a bit of thinking about, but ultimately a Japanese passport is more useful here, where I live, so the decision wasn't hard. As it turns out, I can also apply to nullify the renunciation if I like, so it's not even permanent (though I have no intention of doing this).

[homesweethome]

To reitterate again, not having to carry an alien reg card is a minor unanticipated perk I discovered after the event. My actual reasons for taking citizenship were much more involved. Having to give up British citizenship took a bit of thinking about, but ultimately a Japanese passport is more useful here, where I live, so the decision wasn't hard. As it turns out, I can also apply to nullify the renunciation if I like, so it's not even permanent (though I have no intention of doing this).

This makes the most sense to me, why do I carry a passport (citizenship) of a country I have not spent a total of a month in the last 20 years (most of my adult life). Like wearing a full length parka all year long, there are times when it is just in the way.

[dimwit]

There are two reason why I have no intention of going the citizenship route. First, it is very conceivable that my son will in the future be educated in Canada and giving up my citizenship would potentially double the cost of his schooling there. Essentially, keeping my Canadian Citizenship leaves the door open for my son.

Secondly, I don't really intend on staying here forever. Our vague long term plan is to settle back somewhere on the west coast when the my son is old enough to care of himself.

[Rudd-Crunch]

Well, citizenship isn't for everybody.

[Greji]

Essentially, keeping my Canadian Citizenship leaves the door open for my son.

I don't know Canadian Law, but even if you were to naturalize, it should not have an effect on your son's citizenship.

I know the US goes person by person. The major problem there is if you have a home of record residence or not. This determines whether you pay local school cost or out of state cost. Foreigners pay a different (higher) scale for school in most places. My kids were checked on their residence not their father or mothers nationality when they went back to school in the states, because they were going as US citizens.

[cstaylor]

Well, citizenship isn't for everybody.

Congratulations on your naturalization. You're a braver man than I am.

[cstaylor]

It probably helps that I was known to Debito long before I even thought about taking citizenship, and he's diverted some enquiries my way.

Speaking of Debito, did he ever get 2-channel to dump those personal attacks?

[Rudd-Crunch]

Can I also just add that I'm (of course) exempt from the fingerprinting requirement on immigration. Another bonus!

[homesweethome]

There are two reason why I have no intention of going the citizenship route. First, it is very conceivable that my son will in the future be educated in Canada and giving up my citizenship would potentially double the cost of his schooling there. Essentially, keeping my Canadian Citizenship leaves the door open for my son.

Secondly, I don't really intend on staying here forever. Our vague long term plan is to settle back somewhere on the west coast when the my son is old enough to care of himself.

I understand your reasoning, and I agree with it, your son should have every option available to him which you can possibly provide as a parent. That is the ideal. Now in reality, are you truely able to give him the best of both worlds without making a death defying sacrifice of your own? i.e. can you really support him and his ambitions all through the events of his young life?

I don't know if I could, that is why I ask the question.

[Mulboyne]

I wondered about how taking Japanese nationality affects a child's nationality entitlements too. Would it make a difference, for instance, if the child was born before or after you renounced your nationality? As Greji observed, it likely depends on the country you are from.

I don't believe there is anything "lukewarm" about permanent residency. I don't expect American, Japanese or any other long term resident of the UK to apply for a British passport for me to be able to accept their right to be here. Foreign spouses of UK nationals are entitled to one and often take it because this does not require renouncing any former nationality and an EU passport can be very convenient for travel. Under the system operated in Japan, that option isn't on offer so permament residence is the best way to reduce the administrative hassle without giving anything up.

I don't agree with your marriage comparison, partly for that reason. There's no sacrifice involved for a foreign spouse to get a British passport (although some might think marrying a Brit is the ultimate sacrifice) so how can they experience the sense of commitment that you say you now have? Does that make them any less a citizen? On the flip side, does Sadaharu Oh lack commitment to Japan for retaining his Taiwanese passport?

There are a whole host of roles that foreigners can and do play in Japan without taking Japanese nationality. Even excluding Japan-born Koreans, they represent Japan in international sport, run Japanese companies, work in education, media and the arts. I think it is fine that you yourself feel more committed to Japan by getting your passport but I don't think you should feel superior to those who haven't.

You point out that you could actually get back your former nationality although you do also say that you do not intend to. That may well be true under current law but the UK has retrospectively revoked nationality entitlement by Act of Parliament before and could easily do so again. If that did happen then I hope it's true that:

[dimwit]

If Japan accepted the concept of duel citizenship as Canada and many other countries accept I would probably apply for citizenship tomorrow. How about the rest of you?

[Grumblebum]

I'd probably go for it if Japan officially allowed dual citizenship. But then, I don't even have PR yet.. (although I aim to try for that next year)

[Greji]

If Japan accepted the concept of duel citizenship as Canada and many other countries accept I would probably apply for citizenship tomorrow. How about the rest of you?

There are many conservative people in any one of a number of countries that look at the issue of denouncing one's citizenship as an act of treason. Actually, it is only a paperwork transaction.

If you are truly British, Canadian, Yank or whatever, at heart, you'll be one until you die regardless of the color of your passport. There are many professional/business people who do change citizenship and a lot of these are simply for tax purposes to avoid unfair, or double tax disadvantage. This is also apparent in J-league and I know several pro ball players who have also done this.

It shouldn't make you less of a patriot to your own country to make an "administrative change" for advantage.

On the other hand look at the problems even as far as terrorism, caused their new country by people who have in fact changed their citizenship and or were native born of foreign parents. It really comes down to the fact that the belief in one's nationality is in the mind of each individual!
My ten yen worth! Bu Bu

[dimwit]

Patriotism would have little to do with any changes, pragmatism is my sole motivation.

Generally the closest most Canadians ever get to patriotism is say that they are not American.

[Greji]

Generally the closest most Canadians ever get to patriotism is say that they are not American.

Why did I know that was coming?:D